posted
In the recent discussion 'When Convictions Collide', we ended with a general discussion of the LDS church which I found extemely helpful and which stimulated my curiousity.
For the moment, I have some trouble with and a few questions regarding 'Prophets'.
In general, I certainly realize that Prophets and people in direct contact with God, do absolutely occur in the Bible and I even think it is possible for modern Prophets to occur. But at the same time, I think the occurance of modern Prophets is extremely rare. Further, I think Prophets are likely to occur anywhere. Jesus was afteral the son of a carpenter's wife; very humble beginnings. What is the likelihood that any and all modern Prophets would just by chance occur in the Mormon Faith?
I think in general, Prophets occur sporatically according to God's need and God's will. But I don't think our human reflection or opinion of the current need is founded in the same logic as God's.
Some would speculate that Prophets occur in particularly wicked times. Other would speculate that Prophets occur in times of Religious transition, independant of the current preceived state of wickedness in the world. We, generally, can't know God's mind.
So, in one age, we may find a Prophet occurring 10 per century or ten per decade. In other times, we may go 500 years without a true Prophet.
Now I can except that there might always be a 'prophet-ish' man or woman around, but I think true godspoken Prophets are extremely rare.
I went to the moron.org website and I see that the Church is lead by Gordon B. Hinckley, the current Prophet and President. He is assisted by two counselors, and there is a panel of 12 apostiles.
So, can someone be president without being a prophet? What happens if Hinckley dies, and there is no one who is undisputedly a Prophet to take his place? Would the Church go 500 years without someone demonstrating that they are truly and absolutely divinely inspired by God, or would they simply appoint someone from the higher structure of the Church to then serve as 'prophet'? Notice I did not capitalize the word 'prophet' this time. Would they appoint a person of humble means and simple education, someone who was not a Biblical Scholar and not a particularly good administrator?
To some extent, I see the role of President as equivalent to the role of Pope. When the old one dies, they decide who the best candidate is for the new Pope. But to truly find a person who is so divinely inspired, who speak to and for God with the physical presence that we see in the Bible, seems an extremely rare, difficult, and next to impossible task.
I have no trouble with someone having the spiritual authority over the Church the way the Pope does, but I have a very difficult time believing that the LDS Church has an infinite supply of TRUE Prophets.
As a Protestant, I also am EXTREMELY wary of any one who claims to speak LITERALLY for God, or anyone who claims to know the true mind of God. I am far far far far more likely to think that anyone who makes this self-proclamation is a self-serving false prophet than I am to believe there they are the True Voice of God.
So, on one hand, I am asking if Prophet and President are one and the same thing, and that you can't have one without the other? Can you have a President who is not a Prophet, and can you have three or four Prophets who are not the President? Who decides and how do they decide? Are documented miracles require they way they are before declaring someone a Saint?
I can see the President having the same authority as the Pope, but I have much greater problem seeing the President as having the absolute indisputable authority of God.
Is there anyone who would like to explain this to me????
In closing, I ask my questions sincerely, free of malice and antagonism. I'm simply confused and curious.
Notice that to some extent, these issue are touch on in the Ender Series. We have people who are absolutely sure they are 'godspoken' until it is proven to be false. We have 'The Venerated Ones' who are poised on the brink of becoming Saints, though there are some who doubt the truth of alleged miracles.
The much broader and larger question is how can we determine with certainty spiritual truth?
posted
You are asking questions that are, by and large, theologically based on assumptions you have that Mormons do not share. Before answering your questions, you must come to that understanding first and foremost. What you define as "prophet" is not the same thing as you have explained them as Mormons see the issue.
I will try to answer your questions in a later post. At this time I will only say; A prophet by Mormon standards is different from what you have described. That is because Mormons understand AUTHORITY very differently than a typical Protestant - and closer to a Catholic position.
The most recent place to find some answers isPhilosophy and LDS where some of your questions might be answered. A more comprehensive look at Mormon beliefs is A few questions about religion and LDS Where a LOT of questions are answered.
posted
I know that others will flesh out these ideas and respond to missing concepts, but here are a few points. (I haven’t followed the “When Convictions Collide” thread, so I apologize for any duplication):
The right of every individual to receive personal revelation from God is a key LDS doctrine. In that sense, everyone has the potential to be a prophet, as in Numbers 11:29 when Moses said ". . . would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" However, when LDS speak of prophets in modern times we are generally speaking of "The Prophet," as in the president of the church. We don't go around claiming the title of prophet for ourselves just because we've felt what we believe is inspiration from God.
As far as anyone knowing the true mind of God, I don't think even LDS prophets claim that, except portions of His will that He reveals to them. What they do claim is the right to stand upon the earth as God's appointed spokesman, which is of course a huge claim and hard for most to swallow, and rightfully so. Think of the story of Jonah—he was a prophet with a revealed mission from God, but a pretty petulant prophet who clearly did not understand the mind of God, but God entrusted him with a message nonetheless.
We think of prophets as being "raised up" by God. They are not self-appointed. I’ll defer to Occasional on a thorough discussion of authority, but I’ll go back to the example above from Numbers. In that case, two young men began to prophesy, and Joshua came to Moses saying, “Make them stop!” Moses then told him not to be envious for his sake, and then the above quote.
Moses was the appointed leader of the children of Israel, and he had the authority to speak for God regarding that whole people as a body, the laws governing them, and God’s will concerning them. The prophesying of the two young men did not undermine that authority in any way. If those two young men had stood up and said, “God gave us a new law for his people,” Moses’ response would probably have been quite different, because he knew that was his role as “the prophet.”
The way an LDS man becomes prophet of the Church is by being called to positions of leadership until he is serving on the Council of the Twelve Apostles and helping direct the worldwide church. Quite simply, when the prophet dies, the senior apostle, he who has held the position longest, becomes the next prophet. We believe that this is the Lord’s way of training up and selecting his own prophet, and that with that position comes the right to receive revelation from God for the entire Church and the authority to act as president.
Hope this helps clarify some ideas. I know it will probably raise more questions.
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posted
Part of the difficulty here is, I think, that in Mormon culture the term 'prophet' has become shorthand for a variety of roles. The leader of the LDS church is not only a prophet; his role in the Doctrine and Covenants, a series of revelations pertaining to the governance of the church, is defined as 'presiding high priest' because he presides over the system of authority set up in the church.
A 'prophet' in the Biblical (and Book of Mormon) tradition is one who is called by God to bring reform and repentance - they are rarely at the top of the heirarchy. Think Jeremiah, Amos, John the Baptist, Noah. Or Lehi, Alma, Samuel the Lamanite, or Abinadi. Or Joseph Smith. The prophet stands in dichotomy from the 'priest' who governs the church - they're quite frequently not the same person, and even clash.
In the Mormon tradition, these two roles have been fused - the president of the church is the governing high priest. However, he is also sustained as the one to whom God will assign prophetic duty to issue God's word to the church if necessary. You will find Mormons divided on how often this actually occurs - unambiguous revelation in the "Thus saith the Lord" fashion has become increasingly rare. There are occasional examples of this sort of fusion in the Book of Mormon.
quote:So, on one hand, I am asking if Prophet and President are one and the same thing, and that you can't have one without the other? Can you have a President who is not a Prophet, and can you have three or four Prophets who are not the President? Who decides and how do they decide? Are documented miracles require they way they are before declaring someone a Saint?
1)Historically, not necessarily. To the extent that this question is 'Does prophecy come through established ecclesiastical authority,' in the Mormon organization, this is the case, dating to when Joseph Smith and Hiram Page clashed over the latter receiving revelation for the church. 2)Yes to the latter clause but not the former. Each member of the Quorum of the Twelve is also recognized as a prophet. 3)Authority to receive prophecy guiding the church as a whole is issued through the church heirarchy by the laying on of hands, as Mormons believe God works through his church. It should be noted, however, that Mormons believe revelation can be received indvidually for one's personal life. 4)Mormons use the term 'Saint' in the biblical sense, to refer to believers in general. No miracles required.
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quote:What is the likelihood that any and all modern Prophets would just by chance occur in the Mormon Faith?
By chance? Hardly at all. But by design, that's another thing...
quote:can someone be president without being a prophet?
No. Let me explain how a new prophet is chosen. There are two quorums that direct the general affairs of the Church: the quorum of 12 apostles, and the quorum of the first presidency. The First Presidency consists of the President of the Church, and two counsellors. All fifteen men are held to be prophets, seers and revelators by the Church. When the President of the Church dies, the quorum of the first presidency is dissolved. The senior apostle (that is, the person who has held his apostleship the longest) is the also President of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, and historically, he becomes the next President of the Church. He then calls two counsellors from the remaining apostles, and a new apostle is chosen from the general membership.
quote:Would they appoint a person of humble means and simple education, someone who was not a Biblical Scholar and not a particularly good administrator?
Most of the twelve are not what I'd call scholars, and certainaly not Biblical scholars. They are businessmen and professionals, mostly; President Hinkley is an odd duck in the history of the Church, in that he has worked for the church almost all his adult life. "Worked for" meaning, been a paid administrator of church programs in a non-ecclesiastical role.
quote:I have a very difficult time believing that the LDS Church has an infinite supply of TRUE Prophets.
Why? If the Mormon Church is true, then there is nothing more likely, according to its doctrine, than an infinite supply of TRUE prophets.
It's not a problem of numbers-- it's a question of belief.
quote:As a Protestant, I also am EXTREMELY wary of any one who claims to speak LITERALLY for God, or anyone who claims to know the true mind of God.
I understand the concern. However, I think that everyone, Prophet, pauper, beggarman, theif, has the right to know the true mind of God. We are His children-- nothing could be more natural for us to seek his mind, and for him to reveal it to us.
This is one of the cornerstones of Mormonism-- the idea that each of us is responsible to find out the mind of God, and seek His will in our lives.
quote: I have much greater problem seeing the President as having the absolute indisputable authority of God.
Again, I understand-- there's such a danger of misuse of this power.
Very rarely has a Mormon prophet said, "Obey because I said so." Indeed, one of the foundational principles of the Priesthood (the authority to act in Christ's name and perform sacred ordinances and lead in the kingdom of God) is the idea that power in the priesthood comes from patience, instruction, and respect for other people's free agency. The moment someone tries to abuse the authority given to them by God, the power (and God's spirit) abandons them.
I've been very blessed to never have to deal with a leader who was acting unrighteously in his capacity as a leader.
You'll note that I speak generally here of authority-- the President is not the only one that speaks with God's authority. Everyone who is inspired by God speaks with his spirit and with a certain amount of authority.
quote: The much broader and larger question is how can we determine with certainty spiritual truth?
posted
I will answer your last question: how can we determine with certainty spiritual truth?
This is done very opposite to how we are used to finding truth in our culture. In our culture, the truth is found through a series of verifiable and repeatable tests. This means that if one person discovers the truth, he or she should be able to tell others how and why they arrived at the truth, and others will follow the reasoning and accept it as truth. For example, I just graduated in the mental health field and research is the Way to find out how to best serve families and individuals. In this field, if I say "Divorce is bad for families", I better have some good research to support that conclusion, or else it is rejected outright.
I am not criticizing the need of research. I am simply pointing out that it is a very different, even opposite way, of finding truth. The Bible teaches that the things of the Spirit can ONLY be understood by the Spirit, not by the reasoning of man. This does not mean that God's truths are unreasonable or illogical. It only means that determining their truthfulness through reason and logic alone is not sufficient without God's spirit.
So, while I respect and appreciate your discussion and analysis BlueWizard, your approach, in dealing with spiritual things, is the way our culture determines truth. Don't get me wrong, I think logical discussions are important to have and I don't support ignorance. I think questions are good to ask, so I am not saying your approach is bad.
What I am saying is this: if you have a true, sincere desire to find God's truth, you will never find it by reasoning and discussing it alone. Yes, LDS missionaries will answer all of your questions respectfully and thoughtfully, but they will consistently tell you that this is not enough. If it was, the LDS church would gather the best writers, teachers, theologians, and philosophers to put together a masterful course of teaching LDS doctrine that would answer virtually every question that could be answered. The LDS missionaries would use this to teach so that they could have complete and thorough logical discussions about the truth. In addition, if this were the case, the LDS church would NOT sent 19 yr old boys as missionaries. They would send the best of the best, in terms of knowledge of doctrine.
If you are asking your questions simply out of curiousity, then you will find some answers, and other answers, even if correct, will not make sense to you without the Spirit.
I love having discussions that reason out truth, but these are secondary to WHY I believe. I do not believe because I reasoned it out. It happens quite the opposite. I act on faith and sincerely seek God to find out if the LDS church teaches through true prophets. Ultimately, it comes down to me and God. Either He is going to reveal it to me or He is not. I can tell you now that I know that God always speaks through living, true prophets and I don't doubt that anymore than I doubt that I am typing on my computer right now.
Now you may be thinking right now: "So great, you can say you know and now I am supposed to just accept that? Look at all the false prophets who have done the same and done terrible things." This is true. I am not telling you that you are supposed to believe me. When the rubber hits the road, LDS people never ask you to take their word and follow blindly. They ask you to take a leap of faith and see if God catches you. If He doesn't, and you truly leapt (which is different than saying you want to leap, without actually acting), then you have learned and don't have to take our word for it. But if you have ever experienced God catching you, after leaping, you receive a personal revelation that is so profound and deep that it is impossible to deny it. That is what I have experienced. Perhaps the Book of Mormon words is better. In this scripture, the prophet Moroni is telling people how to find out for themselves (notice he does not ask for blind obedience, but invites them to personal discovery of truth) if the words in the Book of Mormon are really true. Of course, his instructions apply to asking God about other spiritual truths too, such as a living prophet.
"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
And in those words is the very essence of how LDS people find truth for themselves. Yes, many of us grow up in a faith that our parents taught us, and we believe because that is how we are raised. But there usually comes a time, at some point in life, when my parents' faith is not sufficient for me. I must know for myself. You really have to want to find the truth. You cannot ask God out of curiosity, or with the intent to say, "I knew He wouldn't answer me." You have to really, truly seek God, as Moroni says, with true intent and a sincere heart. Only you know if you are truly sincere.
If God did not provide this personal revelation, then we would never know if we were following false prophets or not. God expects faith, but faith is not a blind belief. God provides personal revelation, through the Holy Ghost, to reward faith. Each act of faith, when it is based on true things, is rewarded with actual knowledge through the Spirit. So, when LDS people (and I believe other people outside the LDS church receive personal revelation from God at times) trust everything that our president and prophet says, it is because they have received personal revelation from God that this man IS a true prophet. Once you know that deeply within your soul, you have no fear in trusting what the prophet says, even if you disagree with what he may say.
I know I have not answered more of your questions, I just wanted to answer the last question, since I think its answer takes care of some of the others. Indeed, it is the broader and larger question. LDS people believe that revelation, both through a prophet and through our own prayers and inspiration, is a very real, literal thing. But I cannot put my knowledge on a platter and give it to you. I know that God has prophets, with the same authority as Moses and Abraham, and that they are found in the LDS church. I wish I could just hand this knowledge to everyone I see, because it is so sure to me. But this type of knowledge must ultimately be sought between you and God. I am not proud in saying I know that God speaks through prophets in the LDS church. I would be proud if I expected you to take my word for it and believe it, just because I said it. But I don't. I know you must seek truth out for yourself.
I was an LDS missionary for 2 years and I taught hundreds of people. Not even once did I see someone truly converted by my answering their questions. The logical part of me thought that if I just answered their questions long enough, they would eventually be convinced. This never happened. The people that received personal revelation did as Moroni directed (in the quote above). I still answered their questions, but as I said earlier, these answers were secondary to the knowledge they gained through the Holy Ghost. Of course, sometimes my words were accompanied by the Holy Ghost, and the individuals listening felt that Spirit. So, they may have thought my words were convincing, but it really was God's Spirit speaking to them, telling them that my words were true. So, it really wasn't my words, but the Spirit that was teaching them.
I hope I haven't beaten a dead horse. I tend to get long-winded sometimes And I hope I haven't sounded like you asked these questions the wrong way. I believe you asked sincerely, without accusation. I hope what I have said makes sense. You may not believe it, but that is for you to find out on your own.
Edit: I took so long typing that Scott answered before I was finished. Consider my answer an expansion on some of the points he mentioned.
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posted
As I had said before, you have to understand the Mormon concept of "authority" before understanding "prophets" in LDS Theology. That means understanding what Mormons call "Apostacy" and "Restoration" of the Church of Jesus Christ.
The founder of Mormonsim, Joseph Smith, wanted to know what Christian church to join. He heard the sermons and read the Bible. According to him, he decided the only way to know what church to join was to pray to God for answers. From his prayer he claimed that God the Father and Jesus Christ (two seperate individuals) told him not to join any religion as none of them had proper authority and taught false teachings.
From this came the concept of an "Apostacy" where the Church as founded by Jesus and his Apostles no longer remained on the Earth. Along with that was the loss of Priesthood, or the authority to act in God's name to proclaim His words and perform His ordinances.
what Joseph Smith claimed was that God, through him, started a "Restoration" of that authority that was lost. The Priesthood returned to the Earth; complete with Apostles, Prophets, Priests, Teachers, etc. Man could once again, through the Priesthood, recieve revelation from God as His mouthpiece. They could also perform salvational ordinances (such as baptism, ordination, and eternal marriages) through Faith in Jesus Christ.
Along with the idea of Priesthood, for Mormons, comes a return to a hierchy structure. The LDS Articles of Faith puts it this way:
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
The "Prophet" as explained by others, is an office of the Priesthood that others holding the Prieshood confir on them by ordination and laying on of hands. They are not the only one designated as prophets, as all members of the 12 Aposotles are designated "Prophets, Seers, and Revelators" for the whole Church proper. Functionally, however, the President of the Church is also the one who holds all the "Keys" (i.e. Priesthood power and authority) of the Church. The 12 Apostles as an organized body also hold all the Keys of the Priesthood whenever there is no President of the Church. However, as revealed by Revelation (i.e. communicated from God to those in the Church with authority to Speak and Act in His name), one person at a time must be ordained the leading authority of the Church. As such, every time a prophet dies (all but once it was from natural causes)another is put in place by revelation and the laying on of hands by the 12 Apostles. The President of the LDS Church actually has many titles, prophet only one of them. They are:
President, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, First High Priest, Leading Apostle, President of the First Quorum of the Presidency, Mouthpiece of God for the Whole Church, Holder of the Keys of the Kingdom of God, Jesus Christ's Representative on Earth.
Some of the above are official designations and others are infered. So, the President/Prophet of the LDS Church has many responsibilities and duties. Some of them are of the traditional definition of prophet and some of them not as much. Personal revelation for each member of the Church is a very important part of LDS Theology, but that is a different discussion probably left for later.
quote: Some would speculate that Prophets occur in particularly wicked times. Other would speculate that Prophets occur in times of Religious transition, independant of the current preceived state of wickedness in the world. We, generally, can't know God's mind.
Prophets occur at all times in all places, it is the Law of Mediocrity. The LDS church is the only one to my knowledge that makes a point of this fact.
Regardless, here is some important information regarding Priesthood and Prophets for Latter-day Saints. These are from a set of Mormon scriptures called the Doctrine and Covenants that are revelations to the Church.
posted
Steve, we believe the Prophet can receive real revelation for the church because each of us are taught, (and given the gift of the holy spirit at baptism), how to receive revelation for ourselves and for the things under our own stewardships. Because we have extensive experience receiving this revelation for ourselves, we do not doubt that the prophet, who is a great and holy man, can experience the same thing for the things under his stewardship, which in his case is the whole church.
Revelation, as others have said, comes to those who ask sincerely, live worthily, and have been baptised and given the gift of the holy spirit by the laying on of hands, by one in the true line of authority from God. These baptisms by water and by fire (as they are called) are the first two ordinances of our religion.
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posted
Thank you one and all, that helps tremendously. I'm pressed for time right now so I can't comment at length, but I found this all very insightful and informative, and yes indeed, that helps greatly to put things in perspective.
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