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Aka, please answer my questions about the Season Two finale. Without devloving into an interesting discussion about Islamofascist terrorists and freedom fighters.
*****SEASON TWO SPOILERS*****
1) What on earth made Apollo so mad at Starbuck? Was it her comments to him in that last scene with both of him, where she says something to him about D? Or am I missing something?
2) What the heck is going on, exactly, with Gaius and No. 6 (the blonde....is she 6?) being in each others' heads? Or has this question still not been answered except in speculation? Is Gaius also a cylon, or what?
3) Why, exactly, did the cylons come for them again? Maybe I'm asking for a hypothesis on this more than anything...
Anyway, I'm mostly confused by Starbuck and Apollo...since episode 1 I've been wanting them to get together and live happily ever after. And I have a crazy crush on Lee Adama.
posted
If Gaius was a cylon I would stop watching the show. We, as the viewers, have been told repeatedly that Gaius is a human. So while I guess he technically could be, it would be evident of such poor writing that I don't think they'd ever do it.
As for Lee and Kira, Kira rejected Lee pretty flat out in the one episode where they started to go somewhere. I think he was pretty bitter about it and that he was essentially settling for Dee. There's probably more to it than that, but that was my take.
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And there's definitely more to the Lee/Kara story than just a single rejection. A LOT more. We just don't know it yet.
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1) It stems from the unrequited love between the two of them. Remember in "Scar" when they finally show each other that they have feelings for each other and are about to have sex. But Starbuck is reeling from Cat taking over her spot as #1 pilot and from her feelings for Anders too. Apollo has always wanted Starbuck and wants their encounter to mean something... while Starbuck's motives are not only giving into Apollo at last but with all these self loathing and self doubt stuff mixed in. She reacts horribly to Apollo's request to not be so rough. Whatever happened in the year since then stems from their attraction to each other. Sometimes when you cannot have what you desire you come to hate it.
2) There is no explanation yet. Either both are emanations from some other being, or there are chips in both Gaius and #6, or the shared experience during the Apocalypse maybe burned each other's image into each other's minds. But considering that both images know things that neither should know shows that something bigger is going on (ei my theory that the Cylon God has something to do with it).
3) The Cylons are A.I.'s created by Mankind to make life easier on the Twelve Colonies of Kobol. They decide one day to kill their masters and a bloody ten year begins. Finally an armistice is agreed on and the Cylons leave the Twelve Colonies for a world of their own. 40 years later they break the peace and attack the Colonies. They have evolved and claim to be on a mission from their God.
My theory is that the Cylon God is actually the 13th fallen/rebel Lord of Kobol. The Lords of Kobol lived in harmony with Humanity on Kobol till one of their number wanted to be worshiped above all the other 12 Gods... thus the war on Kobol began and Humanity fled to the stars.
The Cylon God met up with the Cylons and they came to worship him. And of course as Satan, he wanted to destroy the true children of the Gods and sent the Cylons back to the Twelve Colonies to wipe us out. #6 in Gaius and Gaius in #6 are both eminations of the Cylon God.
The Lords of Kobol are the Beings of Light from the original series. That's my thinking.
[ September 27, 2006, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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Carrie, glad to see that you are still there. Sorry to say that there will be very few posts from me this season. Unfortunately I don't have a job that gives me hours to surf the boards and come up with wild and unsubstantiated rumors. Hope that you all are as excited about Season 3 as I am.
Ah shucks. I just gotta add my two bits. There are 12 cylon models. There are 12 colonies and the government is ruled by a president and the quorum of 12. I would dare say that the cylon god is a living and breathing individual and serves as the "president" of the cylon quorum. That quorum is made up of the original 12 cylon models. The first copy of each model to be created. Don't know how significant that would be, but it was fun to think about.
Here's another one. The cylons already found earth. Kobol is not the birthplace of mankind, earth is. However, Kobol is the birthplace of this model of human. "All of this has happened before and all it will happen again." The Lords of Kobol were the humans who came from Earth. The humans of the 12 colonies were their creations. They rebelled as well and left Kobol for the worlds of the 12 colonies. But not before nuking the crap out of Kobol to kill off their creators.
Or if you like, reverse it. The Lords of Kobol were the Cylons from Earth that benevolently ruled the humans of Kobol, until, corrupted by power, began to demand human sacrifice. The humans rebelled, fought back, defeated the earth cylons (at great cost) and left for the worlds of the 12 colonies. Thus beginning the cycle of time anew. Now here's a further thought, the god of the cylons is the last remaining lord of Kobol and an original earth cylon. Sharon said in Season 1 in "Home" that the cylons knew more about the human religion than the humans did.
So what about earth? Earth will probably be a desolate and empty planet, left barren and scarred from the nuclear wars between human and cylon. A wreak of a planet that was abused and abandoned by a group of god like cylons with their human slaves for a new homeworld in the stars.
Or it will be a place of high technology and peace where the human/cylon hybid is the species of the planet, tracing their genetic origins back to the merging of the organic and the mechanical. If the human and the cylon have the ability to produce offspring, why wouldn't they? The resulting children would be smarter, faster, stronger, and possiblity immortal. On earth, humanity has achieved a god like status through the merging of the organic and the mechanical.
Okay, it's late and I'm starting to wander. Good night all.
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Gaius can't be a cylon. Six was sent to Gaius because he had access to the highest levels of security in the defense systems. If Gaius was a cylon, there would have been no reason to send Six and Gaius could have disabled the defense systems of the colonies himself.
For me what's most fascinating about Gaius is that they didn't just make him the typical cardboard traitor. He's a wonderful illustration of the evil that can come of always chosing the easy way. He's not lazy or stupid or malevalent. He's so chilling because he consistently chooses the easy way out, and we all do that sometimes. It's very easy to see ourselves in Gaius when we're really honest. He's become one of my most favorite characters on TV.
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Gaius is definately an intriguing character, and undoubtedly one could write a couple chapters just on him in " The Philosophy of Battle Star Galactica". But the most compelling character, the one I enjoy more than any other character is Bill Adama. He's fallible, he makes mistakes, but those under his command love him, he knows how to command, he's a leader who shows he can grow, unlike most 2 dimensional leaders on TV. He is my favorite character from any TV show.
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quote: He's a wonderful illustration of the evil that can come of always chosing the easy way. He's not lazy or stupid or malevalent. He's so chilling because he consistently chooses the easy way out, and we all do that sometimes. It's very easy to see ourselves in Gaius when we're really honest.
I just have to say, I absolutely love your analysis. Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I see no logical way Gaius can remain part of the human colony after Season 3 is over (I'm suspecting by the time Season 3 is over, the search for Earth continues, and the whole 'New Caprica' situation gets resolved). Now, I suspect they'll throw him in exile instead of killing him, but thats just a suspision.
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I haven't actually seen the show, but Battlestar Gallatica was referenced on both Gilmore Girls and Veronica Mars last night.
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Funny thing. The dialogue is mediocre. The look, acting, and direction of the show are so so, but the plot structure is fantastic.
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WOW!!! I really hate you for showing me that link. Now I am so jazzed for Saturday (No scifi, iTunes posts on Saturday) that I can't even see straight.
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quote: I see no logical way Gaius can remain part of the human colony after Season 3 is over
Why?
After having Caprica 6 and Boomer in that close of a vicinity, both of them having full knowledge of what he did, it's impossible that another human won't stumble upon the truth of what he did. Factor in that Rosalyn and Adama are both already suspicious of him, and it's pretty much a gaurentee that he'll be outed.
As soon as he's outed, he'll flee like a coward rather than face the consequences of his actions, causing a horrendous side story through season 4 (one that I'm sure to hate), until he's redeemed in the season five premeire by providing some super secret info on the cylons(the series finale will end with season 5, shortly thereafter a spinoff series title Galactica 2010 will air and will be cancelled within 3 episodes.
In otherwords, I think it's impossible that after interacting with 6, that anyone will think anything less than Traitor about him.
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quote: After having Caprica 6 and Boomer in that close of a vicinity, both of them having full knowledge of what he did, it's impossible that another human won't stumble upon the truth of what he did.
I do not agree that it's impossible. The last we saw, Gaius had rejected Six. I don't know that their relationship would be public nor am I certain that that Six was Gaius' Six. It might be likely that Gaius will be branded a traitor, but I think it's far from a given. Guess we'll have to watch and see.
*bounces up and down in anticipation*
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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T...I love Adama too, and definitely don't love Gaius; I just think he's a wonderfully well done character. He's the sort I like to think I'd invite to church, given the chance.
I don't think it's impossible for him to remain in the colony. I think part of what makes him interesting is that he knows how bad some of his choices have been, loathes himself, but never quite takes so much of it to heart as to actually do anything about it. This takes so much skill at denial that I think he could manage to live quite comfortably (relatively speaking) among people who totally loathe him.
That said, I more see him escaping into cylon society, loathed there as well for being human, but tolerated for his many contributions to the cylon infiltration. Ultimately, my hope is that he will find some opportunity for redemption and take it, making him a genuinely changed man. I think that's a far more interesting story than his ultimate total destruction.
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quote:The last we saw, Gaius had rejected Six. I don't know that their relationship would be public nor am I certain that that Six was Gaius' Six. It might be likely that Gaius will be branded a traitor, but I think it's far from a given. Guess we'll have to watch and see.
Wait, really? The last Six I saw was making eyes at Gaius and he was freaked out by her presence, but I don't see that as a rejection, per se.
How about those webisodes? Did anyone else see today's? Wow, Jammer!
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With the last webisode, things in the first act of episode 301 make a little more sense (I mean you could piece it together easily with the previous webisode stuff, but this last one confirms it). I'm really pumped to see the rest of 301 tomorrow night. I'm anticipating it as much as I was anticipating Lost's premiere last night. This is a good week to be watching television.
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quote:WOW!!! I really hate you for showing me that link. Now I am so jazzed for Saturday (No scifi, iTunes posts on Saturday) that I can't even see straight.
quote: Wait, really? The last Six I saw was making eyes at Gaius and he was freaked out by her presence, but I don't see that as a rejection, per se.
Well, I haven't watched the episodes since they were on several months ago so I could have it wrong. I thought that Gaius had rejected mental Six for the live version he had sex with who then detonated the nuke. I also seem to remember that he hadn't heard from mental Six after that. But memories are faulty things. Does this sound right to others?
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Amanecer & ReddwarfVII, Six stayed away from Gaius for only several weeks but when she came back she was not nearly so nice. Her appearances were also not as frequent as before.
In an podcast the creator said that they wanted to keep Six away as a result of Gaius's choice for the live model, but they realized that the Six/Gaius dynamic was too important for them to cut out for half a season.
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Yeah, that's pretty much right. After his relations with Pegasus Six, he doesn't see Mental Six until the cylons arrive on New Caprica. At least I would say that is a fairly reasonable assumption based on the current information.
I agree with Jeniwren, I think that the redemption of Gaius Baltar would be a far more engaging story than his total destruction. This show really does not need a human face of evil like the original series did. The human cylons are taking on that role quite nicely. Gaius' redemption would really fit more into the overall theme of the show which is the near destruction and redemption of the human race. Gaius could be the poster child for that struggle.
One thing I am very interested to see is the dynamic that will occur between Caprica Six and Mental Six. They are same person, or are supposed to be. Same with Mental Gaius and real Gaius. That bit has had me wondering all summer.
Also, did anyone else catch the Chief's reference to "Boomer" in the webisodes? Looks like that Sharon has made herself known on New Caprica. I am very interested to see how that senario is playing out as well.
.............I hate waiting............ Posts: 263 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:One thing I am very interested to see is the dynamic that will occur between Caprica Six and Mental Six. They are same person, or are supposed to be. Same with Mental Gaius and real Gaius. That bit has had me wondering all summer.
If you remember at the end of episode "Home pt. II" we find out that Six is neither a chip in his brain nor a hallucination. A brain scan shows nothing in Gaius's brain...but Six knows things Gaius could never know. She has made predictions several times of events that will take place in the future. The biggest one is when she told Gaius that the Cylon baby (their child carried by Boomer) would be born on Galactica.
[ October 05, 2006, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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Exactly. Who or what is Mental Six. With the actual real person standing in front of him, who or what then is the one living in his mind? See this whole time Gaius has been assuming the one in his head is the same one he loved on Caprica. But that can't be so because the one on Caprica was downloaded into a new body. So who or what is the mental one in Gaius' head. Also, who or what is living inside Caprica Six's mind? That's what I want to know.
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In one episode I seem to remember them talking about a prophecy of a demon doing something or other and in that context it was clear that Gaius' Mental Six was the demon they were referring to. I would be perfectly fine if it turns out the mental people are supernatural Angels or Demons.
Thinking about the theology of the show... does either religion rule out the possibility of other gods? I know Six called the human's gods false gods. But Lucifer (of Christian theology) could be considered a false god while still existing and having many powers. Could the Clyon God be the humans' devil? And the humans' gods the clyon devils?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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There are 12 Colonial Gods. The 12 Olympians of Kobol. But there was a 13th. If you remember in season one Priestess Eloshia tells Col. Tigh that the Lords of Kobol and Mankind lived in peace till one of their number wanted to be raised above all the other Gods, thus the war on Kobol began. Then Six, who is walking behind the others with Gaius, says "Blasphemy! There were never any other gods, only the One."
So my theory is that the Cylon God is the rebel 13th Lord of Kobol... and that the Six in Gaius and the Gaius in Six are eminations of that being.
Cylon God = Iblis/Satan Lords of Kobol = Beings of Light/Angels
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But then what does that make the Cylon-Human child?
One of the things I've been having debates about is the nature of the Cylon religion. There doesn't seem to be like a head person in charge interpreting God's will like a Prophet- more like there is a complete understanding of the religion, so no need for prophecy. However, we have a complete restructuring of the religion with Caprica 6 and Boomer leading the way, and the clip of the Reverend saying "I could have told you that killing them was wrong."
So who exactly is/was in charge of the Cylons if they are subject to free will, and not just a collective conscious? Who interpreted their Gods will to destroy the humans, or was it just a group decision, and once made, everyone accepted it?
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Or maybe their God came down and told them directly...
If the Cylon God is the fallen 13th Lord of Kobol and had a grudge against Mankind, it would make sense if he came down, helped Cylon evolution, and told them to destroy the true children of the Gods.
One of the main driving dictates of the Cylon religion is to have children. For some reason the Cylon God wants the Cylons to have kids, with Humans. This Cylon baby is the culmination of that plan.
In deleted scenes from "Downloaded" shows Gina and the Cylon journalist, number Three, plotting to capture the baby who had just been born. While in Gina's room Three calls the baby Hera, but Gina says not to call it after a Human god. When asked what to call the baby, she says "just call her 13".
[ October 05, 2006, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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I believe the cylon god hasn't exactly said babies "with humans", just that a commandment is to have babies (which, honestly, doesn't make much sense if you could just BUILD another cylon). I reference what Sharon said when they were on Caprica "One of our commandments is to produce offspring, we've been having trouble with that."
As far as the "call her 13" reference, I think that's just reference that she's model number 13, not named after the 13th god, but either has a strong argument for it.
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So wait, there's not one but two episodes tonight? Insanity. 2 hours of Battlestar Galactica tonight! Woo!
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Oh my gods, that rocked! I am emotionally spent right now. Must sleep and watch again tomorrow for more clarity. Posts: 601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Even though I'm only now starting to watch the Season 2.0 DVD set, I know enough of what's going on to watch. I'm not gonna miss this just because it spoils the entire second season.
What's really weird is by the time the premiere rolled around, I was accepting of where they were, even though at the finale's end, I'd been very uneasy about the skipping-a-whole-year-thing.
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I find it hard to believe that Jammer is an actual cop. At first I assumed that he must be undercover for the resistance, but it seems that he's not. I feel like I'm missing something.
Also, was anybody else bugged by the left side of Lee's face? It seemed way out of proportion. Made it hard for me to take him seriously.
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Lee's beer gut has GOT to go. NOW. It was one of the most disappointing things I've seen in ages.
Amazing episode. I totally cheered at the "Get your fat a$$ out of my office" line, even though I'm somewhat in love with Lee. I thought the writing was up to its usual very high standards and the plot wasn't too convoluted.
High points: Sharon Agathon. Kasey is the most adorable child on television - is she not super-cute?! The Return of Tom Zarek.
I am so excited for the rest of the season. I'm also excited because I have real-life friends to watch the show with me every week, too. Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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"You tried to rig the election a year ago?" "Yes." "I wish you would have gone through with it." "So do I."
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I'd been saying for a week now that Gaius better do something pretty awful to live up to the constant "Sometimes you have to do things you hate to survive" line. They did not disappoint. I'd put that scene just behind the Sharon in danger scene from the Pegasus torture arc in emotional intensity. I wasn't on the edge of my seat with my heart racing, but I was close.
Six in the head is back. Yea! The method of her return brings up a few questions, though.
I love that Laura wouldn't look Gaius in the eye and say that suicide bombing is right but wouldn't say it was wrong, either. I love that she and Gaelan oppose it but Tigh wants Baltar dead so bad he'll do anything to get it. His monolog about being the agents of death may be one of my new favorite tv quotes.
I HATE that Dee and Lee and married. Besides the obvious stupidness of their combined names, I think they're awful for each other, and I have legal and moral concerns about Dee serving under her husband. It also seems like an awful lot of weddings for one year. Is there anybody left single on this show?
And the ending? So wrong. Now we can spend the rest of the week debating about who opened fire there at the end.
What a great start to the season!
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quote:And the ending? So wrong. Now we can spend the rest of the week debating about who opened fire there at the end.
Remember how Adama said that the centurians aren't really sentient, that they can't distinguish one bio cylon from the next? I'm hoping that Boomer runs in and commands them to stop and then shoots the priest or something. Cause if you remember she was hanging around the caravan before it left... maybe she snuck off with it... 'spose that's kinda a stretch though.
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Lee's weight gain seems a bit out of character, it is a self assault over some feeling of self loathing obviously. However, most frightening is his loss of the will to fight the Cylons and recover the people. Even in an assault where half of humanity is killed by the attack against the Cylons the number of survivors is ten times the fleet numbers so Lee's argument that he wants to preserve humanity is a bit of self justified cowardice. It is upsetting.
The heavy handed manipulation of Starbuck is disturbing but it is amazing drama. I think that she may just be shifting gears in her fight, but a little girl trumps all other emotional cards. (What if it is not a successful crossbreed but instead is a immature six?)
I did not know it was a two hour premiere but it did not seem long at all, however I found it murderous after the DVD experience to have to sit through commercials, I may have to get a hard drive to record the shows and cut the commercials.
I did find the comparisons between the Iraq conflict and the Cylons to be heavy handed, so I will point out what should be obvious to anyone, the humans where not bothering anybody and were doing just fine if a bit slow to get their technology up and running. It is obvious that the analogy of the well meaning Cylons screwing everything up being like our campaign in central Asia breaks down at this point. The Cylons could have stayed in orbit and provided improved technology to ease their guilt, or just left humanity alone and achieved the same ends. Therefore they have another agenda in play, perhaps the perfection of the crossbreeding program. We moved on Iraq and Afghanistan because they where intolerable regimes, our desire to help them after that fact in no way shifts responsibility to us for the conditions that the people there created.
As for the mythology, one wonders about the possibility of time travel, this idea of a circular loop in history may imply a time jaunt. If a group of Cylons and humans where to end up in the past they could be the twelve tribes of Kobol that found the colonies.
However if we assume linear time then Kobol must have been settled by Humans from Earth from the Hellenic period, perhaps a sort of Atlantis mythology where a small piece of humanity became very advanced and found a way to FTL, If so then the departure of that group begins the development of Kobol which leads to the war and fragmentation and the colonies with a legend of Earth.
There are some obvious things the Cylons could do that they have not done that make it hard to suspend my disbelief. First it would be a trivial matter to put a tracking device on every one of 42000 humans and monitor them photographically at all times from the air. They could also provide better housing with the double edged sword of a security grid.
In many ways the 'look' has become more important then having things make sense. Machines should seek maximum efficiency, that should be the source of conflict, humanity choked off by the tendency to over-control. The freedom of the camp as shown in the first episode leaves many options between 'leave them alone' and 'line them up against the wall'.
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I don't think that kid is Kara's. I think it's Hera. The *actual* Human/Cylon hybrid that belongs to Boomer and Helo.
I bet you anything that Cylon that is 'married' to Kara (I can't remember his name.. Ethan?) is the one that threw the baby down the stairwell to get Kara to emote.
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"Do you know that everytime they take you out of this cell, we come in here, and we change those little hash marks on your little calander there that you're trying to hide?"
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