posted
This came up in Pixiests thread, but also in an interview on EXODUS programs that ran on NPR.
Does being gay equate to how macho/butch a person is?
The EXODUS program is a Christian program designed to "Cure" homosexuality. Part boot-camp, part revival, I will just say about it that those in it and those running it all are doing what they believe is best.
One major part of the male EXODUS program they spoke about is Masculinity Training--where they try to bump up the he-man-ship of their --um -- gay bretheren. They have a list of rules of things you can not due--and most of them dealing with increasing macho-ism, and decreasing effeminate behavior.
Yet from personal experience and from other ancedotal evidence, there are many really feminine lesbians and really macho, gung-ho, gay men.
So here are the questions I am unequipped to handle:
1) Is there a definate connection between effiminate behavior in men, and macho behavior in woman and there sexual orientation.
2) Is there a assumed connection, particularly by those who oppose homosexuality.
3) Is part of the oppostion to homosexuality really opposition to effeminate behavior in men and macho behavior in women?
4) Is there an irony in the heavily Christian anti-homosexual/anti-effiminate movement, while Jesus Christ himself is one of the least masculine religious icons. I mean, compared to Mohammed, David, G-d of the Old Testament, Zeus, Thor, etc Jesus and his "Turn the Other Cheek, Love Thy Neighbor" talk was a pansy.
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posted
I have more thoughts on this, but I want to leave work soon. Quick answers.
1. I hope not. Otherwise, there'd be a lot more lesbians out there. How many of us grew up as rough-and-tumble tomboys but consider ourselves heterosexual?
2. Probably.
3. I don't know...again, probably.
4. You know, I'd never thought of that! How amusing!
3) Eh, I dunno. Although both phenomena challenge conventional gender norms, so it may amount to the same thing. And may explain why they get conflated by those who can't tell one threat from another.
4) I think I'll skip the rhetorical question this time. Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
1) Definate? no. at least I doubt it. 2) Yes, probably. Woo stereotypes! 3) That I have no idea. I mean it could be an opposition to people not fitting into their "typical roles." That gets into a lot more than sexual orientation tho. 4) heh.
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posted
1)while there shouldn't be, I definitely think that the stigma exists. I guarantee you that if you're a boy who decides to take a ballet class, the first thing you'll be called is gay.
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posted
Strider, while that may be true, that doesn't mean that effeminate behavior in males equals a gay identity.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: But if you're gay, you're even worse than the less-than-alpha males and females.
I don't agree with this. I think that being gay isn't as much of an issue for a lot of men, so much as 'men' acting like 'women', if that makes any sense. That is, a man who is gay but acts like a man (kicks ass, takes names, etc.) is much more acceptable to a lot of men than an effeminate heterosexual man (does not kick ass, take names, etc.).
quote: As for usefulness...
Well, I was speaking more semanticly than practically. I mean, there are issues of power in every human relationship. For instance, a man who works for another man is lower on the totem pole but is not really looked down on by other men as long as he keeps his cool. In fact, a man who follows orders well and doesn't complain is often looked up to by other men. On the other hand, I think a man who employees another man but acts distraught, weak, unskilled, is looked down upon by other men. So, I think it's not so much an issue of 'power' in general as it is an issue where a man acts weak and 'effeminate' and out of control. I checked your first post, and you actually make note of this in your use of the word 'weak'.
Perhaps some of this conversation revolves around our own hangups. For me, what really irritates me about some gay men is the lisping, 'queer' acting gay male. I can't stand it. Screwing other guys? Fine. Acting like a diva. Ugh. Power has nothing to do with it.
That said, I want to make note that I am nothing like a man's man, nor do I believe that there is an ideal that only men should live up to. When I'm talking about what many/most men believe, I am speaking from experience, and from inferred observations, at that. I've never had a conversation with another guy as to why gay men are disliked by so many men or anything.
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posted
Hmmm...I think there may be a "clumping" thing going on. People who are shunned or persecuted tend to clump together (also better "hunting grounds") and we learn behavior from the people we spend time with so traits can be "contagious". Especially in a mentoring relationship which is not uncommon in the gay community.
A simliar thing happens in, for example, in the African American community. You get stereotypical "black" traits.
I am not at all bothered by "swish" (except in actors that I have to train to play straight) but I don't find a correlation between "swish" and submissive. (A correlation may exist in types of relationships I don't have with them.) Submissive people in general bring out the "bully" in my personality. I am not at all attracted to men that I can boss around.
Also, (re: Jesus) not aggressive or violent is not the same thing as submissive. At all.
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posted
The lisping style gay man behavior is annoying, just like the dumb blond girl or macho jerk guy or any number of behaviors that seem like acting. I think all of those types of people come off as false, or at least as trying too hard.
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posted
Is it really masculine to admonish the opposite virtues Jesus did?
Also is TODAY's perception of masculinity exactly the same as any other time in history?
Its my understanding that the homosexuality of Greece was that it was more masculine to be homosexual because the love between a man and another man had more substance as there was a lack of the biological incentive of passing ones genes on.
People often cite the Japanese where there was a special bond between a samurai and his page (Spare me the Foley comments). Interestingly enough in art depicting this the page is often dressed as a woman and acting womanly.
quote: The lisping style gay man behavior is annoying
But you are able to accurately identify them as gay. With gay men being relatively rare in the population, gay men might find it advatageous to act in such a way in order to find each other. I don't know that that is why it happens, but I suspect it is a possibility.
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posted
I'm a reasonably femme woman and I ping no one's gaydar. If I were a butch, maybe I would have had more luck with women when I was on the market...
But then, that wouldn't have been me...
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: 1)while there shouldn't be, I definitely think that the stigma exists. I guarantee you that if you're a boy who decides to take a ballet class, the first thing you'll be called is gay.
I think that stereotype is waning. I saw on-what is that show with John Stossel? a segment on sereotypes about gays. This one was brought up, and they interviewed men from a major ballet company, only one of whom was gay ( in the entire company).
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posted
I have no way to evaluate this question except by referring to the gay men and lesbian women I have known personally. The truth is, I've known very effeminate gay men and very butch gay women. On the other hand, I've known gay men who were about as macho as you've ever seen, and I've known lesbian women who are as feminine as any straight woman I've ever known. And all along the continuum between. I've also known some pretty effeminate straight men and some startlingly butch straight women.
So, no, I don't believe, based on my own personal experiences, that there is any correlation.
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quote: The lisping style gay man behavior is annoying
But you are able to accurately identify them as gay. With gay men being relatively rare in the population, gay men might find it advatageous to act in such a way in order to find each other. I don't know that that is why it happens, but I suspect it is a possibility.
I think so too, sometimes. I have a friend who the other gay guys we hung out with would never believe was gay. He speaks, dresses, looks, and acts like a heterosexual man. But he's gayer than gay.
posted
I've got a couple of gay friends and they all hang out. One's a butch chick, one's a pansyish dude, one is so big a blip people don't need gaydar to know he's gay, and another I assume is gay because he hangs out with them and they don't call him "the straight guy" (that's me).
I can usually tell, I guess, but I have a feeling that's only when the person in question wants to be seen as "out".
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quote:One major part of the male EXODUS program they spoke about is Masculinity Training--where they try to bump up the he-man-ship of their --um -- gay bretheren. They have a list of rules of things you can not due--and most of them dealing with increasing macho-ism, and decreasing effeminate behavior.
If you do something because someone tells you it's macho, rather than because you want to do it, you're the most effeminate loser out there.
Aside from the weak-kneed father who forces his son to go to these camps in the first place so he can face his hunting buddies.
posted
The whole exodus thing is really awful... it doesn't work (the founder went back and is gay again) and damages tons of people by making them try to be something they're not.
Heterosexual christians out there.. would you marry someone who went through this program? "I used to be gay but thanks to Jesus I'm not now."
Would you buy that?
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posted
When I was in high school, the guy who had the locker next to mine was so fey that his feet barely touched the ground when he walked. He was tall (over 6 feet) and well built, but he was so gay.
But I was told by a couple of girls I knew that he was definitely anything but gay, and for years, I used to use this as a cautionary tale. You can't tell that someone is gay just because he has femmy mannerisms.
Of course, I found out a couple of years ago that he came out, so I don't know what the moral of the story really is.
When it comes to women, I have a kind of reverse gaydar. A lot of women just have something in their eyes that tells me they are 100% heterosexual. I've never been surprised by someone like that. But if I get a vibe that a woman is gay, I'm sometimes right and sometimes wrong.
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posted
Try turning the other cheek for a while and see how easy it is! It *hurts*.
That is, I'd agree that our pictures of Christ are pansy-like, but the guy in the Gospels is anything but. Storming into a public place and turning over vendor's tables, knowing full well it'll get him tortured to death...telling people, you want to follow me, you got to take the same risk ("take up your cross")...it's not for the fainthearted.
So that's #4, I guess.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: The whole exodus thing is really awful... it doesn't work (the founder went back and is gay again) and damages tons of people by making them try to be something they're not.
Heterosexual christians out there.. would you marry someone who went through this program? "I used to be gay but thanks to Jesus I'm not now."
Would you buy that?
Would you tell them they were mistaken?
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posted
If they came out of the Exodus program, yeah, I'd feel pretty safe in saying that they are mistaken/lying. But to be fair, that's only because every discernable success rate they've claimed has come from outright fraud of the people running it.
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quote: Heterosexual christians out there.. would you marry someone who went through this program? "I used to be gay but thanks to Jesus I'm not now."
Would you buy that?
I'm not Christian, but I can still imagine the scenario. If he could find me attractive, then it wouldn't really matter that he was/ used to be generally attracted to men. Then again, I'm not so sure that sexuality is as black and white as many seem to paint it. While a person may be far more attracted to one group than the other group, I have a hard time accepting that people are incapable of being attracted to anybody of the opposite group.
[Edit: Because I'm worried about being offensive and want to be clear. I'm trying to say that I have a hard time imagining that there is no way a person could ever be attracted to a single person in a group that consists of around 3 billion people. I think this is true for any combination. I am not in any way trying to say that gay people should try to not be gay. I think everybody is better of looking for mates in whatever group they find most attractive be it nerds, jocks, women, or men. But I think given the right cirucmstances people can be attracted to a person that belongs to a group that they generally find unattractive. Hopefully I clarified in a good way instead of digging a deeper hole.]
I've known a few gay men, a few more gay women, and quite a number of people who considered themselves bisexual. I would tend to feel there was an identifiable sort of behavior to the homosexual men more than the women, but again, my experience is sufficiently limited that I'd feel foolish to make any sort of statement.
And some people feel there's more spectrum to sexuality than many people acknowledge; that someone might even be 99.99% heterosexual and then meet that one someone of the same sex who turns their head. <shrug>
As far as #3, I'd say definitely yes. I can remember not so long ago a group of parents getting up in arms about a schoolbook that showed (oh, the horror!) a boy, cooking.
And #4? I think divinities are secure enough in their own sexuality not to worry about their message being misinterpreted. Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I also think sexuality is a continuum. I don't know that I'd tell someone he was mistaken for persuing women after going through that program, but I don't think I'd have much to do with him. I'd probably think it was somehow forced/coerced, which would make me uncomfortable. I did have a boyfriend who'd been into men, and I was persued by a guy who later came out as gay. I think pretty much everyone is a little tiny bit bisexual, if that makes any sense.
posted
I'd should put out there that the general Exodus client is a highly motivated evangelical Christian who is exclusively gay. I also believe that there is a continuum in sexuality, but when we're talking about Exodus and most of the other ex-gay programs, we're usually talking about people who fall at one end of it. If they were bi-sexual, it's unlikely that they'd be driven to these extremes.
I'd suggest, before making judgements on Exodus and similiar programs, that people should educate themselves about them.
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posted
I'm a gay man. I have many friends who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or straight. And there is no connection with whether you are "macho" or "feminine".
And as a gay man, and a rational human being, I just have to say that Exodus program fills me with disgust.
People fighting to prove the world is flat because they are so afraid of having their religion proved wrong in any way... that their world will come crashing down. Maybe we should do what the Bible says is good and revive slavery, women as cattle, and force all the men to wear beards. These evangelicals are such hypocrits...they claim to follow the Bible to the letter but they just pick and choose like everyone else.
They take advantage of these desperate people who see religion not as philosophy but as a requirement to remain with their family.
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As for a continuum of sexuality. Yes, it is. And I should know.
But I didn't understand who or what I wanted until LONG after I stopped trying to force myself to be one way or the other. You can't root for an outcome in your quest for self knowlege. You'll get a skewed result.
You can pray to be straight all you want. (and I did.) But it won't change anything. You can try to convence yourself you like something that's really pretty blah to you... and it'll work for a while. Then one day you'll say to yourself "Ya know? I don't really like this. I never have. I'm going to stop."
And that is the danger of Exodus. It works them up in a euphoria of self deception and when it fades they realize they've wasted 10 years of their life... Maybe wasted 10 years of someone elses life... Maybe had children with this person. And now they get to watch their parents have a messy divorce.
I believe Exodus's intentions are good. But we know what road is paved with those.
posted
Its ironic that its acceptable to be angry at the evangelicals who think they are doing a good work. But its reprehensible to be angry at homosexuals for thinking its fine to be that way.
Ok so you believe Exodus program is terrible and it does more harm then good, but its a pretty short sighted person who assumed then that all programs with similar goals must also do more harm then good.
I don't know why this thread has to turn into another debate on the ethics of homosexuality. Can we not converse on the subject of the thread without discussing the ethical merits of homosexuality in the first place? Nobody so much as responded to my post about Japanese Homosexuality. I can only assume it is because it was not interesting, fair enough, it wouldnt be the first time.
Telperion: If I was as ignorant about Homosexuality as your were about the Bible, I would probably be just mistaken individual spouting off rhetoric like, "Gays no what they are doing is wrong!" or "Everyone knows homosexuality is unnatural!"
Using Old Testament scriptures to condemn New Testament practices is one of the oldest falicies of Christian critics.
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posted
I'd like to quote Katerina from Enchantment in saying "Jesus Christ is my icon of manhood." Someone weaker than you cannot grant you mercy.
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quote:Ok so you believe Exodus program is terrible and it does more harm then good, but its a pretty short sighted person who assumed then that all programs with similar goals must also do more harm then good.
Yes, or it could be the the person knew what he was talking about and the programs that make up the ex-gay movement deserve that description. I'd say it would be short-sighted to make judgements without knowing about the topic being discussed.
---
Could you explain why what Telp did was inaccurate. From what I can tell, he pointed out things from the Old Testament that are around the same places as the things that prohibit homosexuality that are no longer enforced. Could you explain why this would be a fallacy?
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posted
BB, You're Japanese example wasn't so much homosexuality as specifically pederasty in a misogynistic culture. Transferring relationships with a power relationship built right into them that take place in a highly sex-typed culture to modern day homosexuality is problematical at best.
There are plenty of people on this thread discussing the masculinity/feminity concept. I've got little to add on that, as I've also had experiences with homosexual people who have run the spectrum. The research I know of shows a mild trend towards opposite sex typed behavior in homosexual individuals, but the causal relationship is pretty much hopelessly confounded.
Of course, addressing the utter failure of the Exodus program, which was how the idea of "masculizing" gay men as a way to make them straight, is also relevant when discussing the general masculinity/feminity issue.
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posted
I know a person who has one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, has a surgically-created vulva, and lives with and has sexual relations with a person who has two X chromosomes. Not even the Bible could find a saint/sinner shoebox for this person based on what I've just described.
People just are what they are and do what they do. Better to let God figure out what to do with them.
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MrSquicky: There are passages about why homosexuality is wrong within the New Testament which is why it is still opposed within the Christian faith. Slavery, etc and all those little rules laid out in the Law of Moses were concluded when Jesus accomplished his mission. Therefore using Old Testament concepts to point out inconsistancy amongst todays Christians is a falacy.
Pixiest: Honestly I am calm, I was just slightly annoyed with the Zeitgeist of today. Where its funny if girls hit men but not the other way around, and where we are demanding tolerance and empathy to those who disagree with homosexuality, but none of those things from homosexuals themselves.
I understand that homosexuals honestly believe they are in the right, and I respect the reasoning (though I disagree with it).
Why can't homosexuals take the time to really understand why some people ardently think homosexuality is not just an alternate lifestyle?
Ill try to politely bow out of this thread, I don't want to be part of the escalation of another debate about the ethics of both sides.
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Oh BB.. don't you see that every time you say homosexuality is wrong you're hitting us?
You're a nice man, but you've got to think about what you're really saying...
Pix
I dont understand where the hitting comes from. I am perfectly willing to treat you as I would anybody else, i.e homosexuality has no bearing on whether I am willing to cultivate any sort of relationship.
I just get riled up when people get so angry at people who think they are doing right. If they are not doing good in your opinion, at least work with them instead of railing against them.
I'm not angry at homosexuals for trying to bring their life style more and more into the mainstream of things.
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quote:I just get riled up when people get so angry at people who think they are doing right. If they are not doing good in your opinion, at least work with them instead of railing against them.
What would you suggest as an example of someone "working with" a group like Exodus, which they perceive to be using psychologically damaging and misguided practices. Are such groups open to being "worked with"? Or are they more of a mind this is a religious issue so there is no room for outside interference?
quote:I'm not angry at homosexuals for trying to bring their life style more and more into the mainstream of things.
I be very interested in exploring your concepts behind this phrase. At face value it seems so conspiratorial. I think it's the use of "lifestyle" that bugs me. What exactly is your idea of the "homosexual lifestyle". Does who you love really constitute a "lifestyle"?
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posted
Thinking about all those people on Hatrack who came to Mormonism without their parents' approval, how would people feel if parents used such a program as Exodus to cure children of their desire to be Mormons?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:MrSquicky: There are passages about why homosexuality is wrong within the New Testament which is why it is still opposed within the Christian faith. Slavery, etc and all those little rules laid out in the Law of Moses were concluded when Jesus accomplished his mission. Therefore using Old Testament concepts to point out inconsistancy amongst todays Christians is a falacy.
So suddenly the Old Testament doesn't count as Christian? Looks like picking and choosing to me. Didn't Jesus say he came not to invalidate the Old Testament but to reinforce it?
And as for the gay "lifestyle"... as said many times before it is not a choice. It's biological. You can claim being gay is a choice but that holds as much water as saying the earth is the center of the universe. It's just like being born with blond hair. I guess we should have an Exodus program to make me brown.
Religion needs stay out of social planning and remain a philosophy in my opinion. Religion is based on faith, not reason, and besides the golden rule and other tenats to be good to one another has no real-world relevance. It's a book about how people lived 3000 years ago. Why do we need to live exactly like them? Your right to move your hand about ends with my nose, and visa versa.
The problem is Religion is not philosophy anymore...it's a political party and sewn into the family and dedicated to maintaning social order... so close to many people that it's under their radar... it's part of their life and never questioned. But the dogma of religion is why it fails as government...because religion will not change willingly. Remember when all those scientists were killed because the Church had dabled in science... making the early cosmology of the universe God's law. So they very well couldn't refute that when a better theory came out... they has already said God had said the earth centric model was divine! So they killed/impisoned people who tried to prove otherwise. Blind faith is no faith at all. Ever read "The Lottery"?
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quote:Ok so you believe Exodus program is terrible and it does more harm then good, but its a pretty short sighted person who assumed then that all programs with similar goals must also do more harm then good.
Yes, or it could be the the person knew what he was talking about and the programs that make up the ex-gay movement deserve that description. I'd say it would be short-sighted to make judgements without knowing about the topic being discussed.
---
Could you explain why what Telp did was inaccurate. From what I can tell, he pointed out things from the Old Testament that are around the same places as the things that prohibit homosexuality that are no longer enforced. Could you explain why this would be a fallacy?
Squicky, I seem to recall having this discussion with you a while ago, and I'm mildly annoyed at seeing such a baited question from you. It's in Acts 15, and I know you know this. Regardless, here:
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
...
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Of course I knew it. I, unlike many Christians, know the Bible. But Telp didn't and BB was pretty disrespectful about Telp not knowing it, without actually giving any reason for why what Telp said was wrong.
As this is something that, in my experience, many, many Christians don't actually know, I was both checking to see if BB knew it and provided him with an opportunity for him to explain why what Telp said was inaccurate, instead of merely berating him for it.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote: Thinking about all those people on Hatrack who came to Mormonism without their parents' approval, how would people feel if parents used such a program as Exodus to cure children of their desire to be Mormons?
In Exodus, do parents force the kids into it? I was under the impression that people willingly entered the program. If this is the case, your analogy fails.
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posted
Not that I know of currently, but there was a time when parents were forcing their children into anti-gay camps and programs.
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posted
Fine. If Mormons were so hated in their family and community that they voluntarily entered themselves into some program to 'cure' themselves of wanting to be a Mormon, how would that make people on Hatrack feel? Completely different, I guess, than from my previous example.
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posted
I really feel bad for any gay person who has the courage to come out of the closet, and then finds that things suck so much that they feel like they'd be better off going back in.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Of course I knew it. I, unlike many Christians, know the Bible. But Telp didn't and BB was pretty disrespectful about Telp not knowing it, without actually giving any reason for why what Telp said was wrong.
As this is something that, in my experience, many, many Christians don't actually know, I was both checking to see if BB knew it and provided him with an opportunity for him to explain why what Telp said was inaccurate, instead of merely berating him for it.
It might have been more helpful to give Blackblade a hand instead of setting him up for a failure (in your expectation, anyway). I prefer to educate people rather than make them look bad. I'm kind of disappointed that after the last time this came up, you're still doing it.
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