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Author Topic: Presidential Primary News & Discussion Center - Obama Clinches Nomination
kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Saephon:
There is this fear amongst me and my friends that if Clinton manages to get the nomination, all of us (and perhaps many young/new voters?) will feel very cheated. I know that the more I listen to Obama, the more I like; this feeling of actually LIKING a politician is a completely new thing to me. He and Ron Paul are the only people running for a major office I have truly trusted and liked at the same time.

So help me if Clinton wins; I will be very miserable with my country.

Make sure your state superdelegates know this. Write to them. If you don't know who they are, post here and we'll find them.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
Lieberman had to whisper into his ear to get him to correct himself, and they're going to lose to that if they don't get their stuff together.
It worth noting that John McCain has been repeating this "gaffe", saying that Iran is training and supporting al Queda after being corrected. I'm getting the feeling it wasn't a mistake so much as a deliberate lie that is part of his strategy.
Really? How many times? I'd read that he'd made the gaffe twice. If it's not a gaffe, it's a pretty stupid move. Either way Democrats will seize on that as him not having a clue as to what is going on over there. But I suspect if he is doing it on purpose, it'll play well with a base that is more inclined to believe whatever McCain says so long as he is on the war march, so maybe it's not a horrible idea, but it'll bump out smart independents, which is what this election will hinge on. It's just one more arrow Obama can put in his quiver.
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MrSquicky
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He did it again yesterday in a speech about the five-year anniversary of the start of the Iraq war.

---

edit: Also, though I haven't been able to find it, I was under the impression that after Joe Liberman corrected him, he repeated this assertion later in the day on Tuesday.

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scholar
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So, according to CNN Hillary is now beating Obama in the polls. That makes me sad. [Frown] Also on top news, Hillary was in the White House when Bill was with Monica. I am sure in the 8 years of being first lady and however many thousand pages Hillary just released, that was the only "significant" finding.
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Lyrhawn
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I'm not too concerned with the polls, except for the numbers about McCain. The stagnation of having to wait 6 weeks until Pennsylvania is giving Clinton plenty of time to go negative, and McCain just gets to sit back and eat it up. Obama is still more than the odds on favorite to win the nomination. My only worry is about what damage Clinton will do to him before he gets the nom.
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pooka
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The pollster.com plot of Clinton and Obama nationally. That's one crazy jump (if you go down to the chart showing this single Gallup result). I don't know if it was just an outlier, or if the disaffection from the Wright scandal is really that serious. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

But the mathematics of Clinton gaining the nomination remain similar. Still, if she is showing a strong trend, I think her case with the superdelegates may be more persuasive. If the Obama territories stay true, he can probably still win the nomination.

As a pro-war conservative, my take on Iran is that I do not favor getting mixed up in another offensive as a matter of policy, so I am not happy about McCain saying those things, whether or not he really thinks them or is just banging the war drum. But I don't think it's the case that he doesn't know the difference between Sunnis and Shia.

P.S. I looked around a bit more, and now McCain beats Obama, and Clinton beats McCain? It's like the scissors are beating rock and the paper is beating scissors.

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Noemon
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Huckabee on Obama's Speech and Rev. Wright

There's a fair amount of annoying blather from two of the anchors, but when Huckabee finally starts talking about Obama's speech 3:39 into the video it's actually pretty interesting.

From a transcript:
quote:
MIKE HUCKABEE: There are two different stories -- one is Obama’s reaction, the other one is the Rev. Wright’s speech itself. And I think that, you know, Obama has handled this about as well as anybody could. And I agree, it’s a very historic speech. I think that it was an important one and one that he had to deliver, and he couldn’t wait. The sooner he made it, maybe the quicker that this becomes less of the issue. Otherwise, it was the only thing that was the issue in his entire campaign. And I thought he handled it very, very well.

And he made the point, and I think it's a valid one, that you can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. You just can't -- whether it's me, whether it's Obama, anybody else. But he did distance himself from the very vitriolic statements.

Now, the second story. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left that are having to be very uncomfortable with what Louis Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon.

Sermons, after all, are rarely written word-for-word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say, "Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that."

MSNBC HOST JOE SCARBOROUGH: But, but you never came close to saying five days after September 11 that America deserved what it got -- or that the American government invented AIDS...

HUCKABEE: Not defending his statements.

SCARBOROUGH: Oh, I know you're not. I know you're not. I'm just wondering though: For a lot of people ... would you not guess that there are a lot of independent voters in Arkansas that vote for Democrats sometimes, and vote for Republicans sometimes, that are sitting here wondering how Barack Obama's spiritual mentor would call the United States the US-KKK?

HUCKABEE: I mean, those were outrageous statements, and nobody can defend the content of them.

SCARBOROUGH: But what's the impact on voters in Arkansas? Swing voters.

HUCKABEE: I don't think we know. If this were October, I think it would have a dramatic impact. But it's not October. It's March. And I don't believe that by the time we get to October this is going to be the defining issue of the campaign and the reason that people vote.

And one other thing I think we've got to remember: As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had a more, more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.


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pooka
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Very interesting, thanks Noemon.

Where are they getting these records of Rev. Wright's sermons, I wonder? I hadn't heard that US-KKK one, and I'm now beginning to wonder if stuff is getting made up.

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Lyrhawn
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Wow, thanks for posting that Noemon.

Huckabee really is something else. Republicans got lobbed a softball with this, and he's letting the pitch go by. That takes an amazing amount of character I think, in this day and age.

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Mike
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Now that's class.
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kmbboots
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I think that Governor Huckabee is a man of character - and this shows that character - but he has some pretty scary ideas.
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Morbo
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pooka, Rev. Wright did say US-KKK--it's on the vids circulating on the cable news shows.

It was cool for Huckabee to speak out like that.

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Lyrhawn
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I haven't seen a wider discussion on Wright's comments on Hatrack (did I miss the thread?) but, having only seen a few of them, nothing I saw was really that bad. It's excellent political fodder, but really looking at what he's said, I don't think it's as outlandish as a lot of people are saying. He's using firey language, and a lot of vitriol, and I'm not saying everything he said is just dandy, but, really taking a look at the core issues that he's addressing and taking into account his history, I don't think it's all that shocking.

Just to take an example, in his "God damn America" sermon, I don't think he's saying America got what it deserved, as a lot of people are (and maybe he is, I don't know), but this touches on a real argument that I don't hear much anymore regarding 9/11. After 9/11 a lot of people, mostly Liberals, asked an important question "why did they do this?" and it's a complicated answer that has to do with America's complicated foreign policy in the Middle East and elsewhere. There's no denying that we do controversial things around the world that contradict our stated goals, ideals and positions. We've pissed a lot of people off, and some of them banded together and attacked us. Is it our fault? No, it's theirs, they did it, but that doesn't ignore the fact that they have REASONS.

I don't think Wright was excoriating America at its core, I think he's pissed at an America that would sanction the foreign policy blunders that led to a situation where 9/11 could happen, and I think that's a perfectly valid opinion that we ignore at our own peril. But in 2008, it's pretty much anathema to even suggest that in the national political realm and still survive. People who were asking questions seven years ago now are saying "America's fault? That's absurd!" Supporters of the current war, largely conservatives have put a lid on this particular subject, and even mainstream liberals in the media and political sphere are taking it as a given.

I'd have loved it if Obama had really taken on Wright's sermons point by point and broke them down. But I think it would have been political suicide. In our current political climate, it might as well be the new third rail of politics. There are still some things off limits in American political discourse.

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twinky
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I don't think the "God Damn America" and the "America's chickens are coming home to roost" comments were from the same sermon. I believe the latter was delivered in 2001 and the former in 2003, if I'm remembering the ABC report I watched on YouTube the other day correctly.
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Lyrhawn
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What was the "God Damn America" speech about? In any case, my point still stands about the sermon I'm referring to. I'd like to be able to see these sermons in full, but I don't know of any site that has them all up, easily accessible and organized. Does YouTube have them in full?

It's hard to respond to the most inflammatory snippets shown on the news without context.

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Morbo
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An interesting essay by Frank Schaeffer decrying the expedient hypocrisy of the right for attacking Obama for his association with Rev. Wright, while embracing various conservative preachers who've preached the same or worse, including the author and his father, Falwell, and Robertson.

Schaeffer has a unique viewpoint as a former politically active evangelist who has renounced his former views.

[ March 21, 2008, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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Adam_S
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anyone remember the three essays OSC published on Ornery 9/11? I think one of those was about how our foreign policy had stimulated anti-american sentiment and terrorist attacks such as the USS Cole. That's what I flashed to when I heard Wright's "Chickens coming home to roost" statement.
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Morbo
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When Paul said much the same thing during a presidential debate, he was immediately ganged up on by McCain, Romney and Giuliani .

For many, the only acceptable motive for the 9/11 terrorists is sheer evil insanity. Any attempt to inject any nuance is rejected, and American responsibility is nil.

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AvidReader
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I think there's a pretty big gap between understanding how our foreign policy makes enemies and justifying folks flying a plane into an international business office. If the terrorists had bombed a military base, I could have that discussion. But they killed civilians from all over the world. I can't follow that reasoning, and I personally won't engage that on whatever its merits are supposed to be. As far as I'm concerned, September 11th was a statement of selfish self-pity. I didn't get what I wanted so everyone is going to pay.
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kmbboots
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Nothing excuses the 9/11 attacks. Understanding them, though, requires more than just condemning the attackers. They exist in a context and part of that context is our foreign policy. We bear some of the responsibility for creating that context.

Lyrhawn, I think that the "God Damn America" stuff was in a sermon that was addressing poverty and AIDS. I'm not sure, though. That montage was snippets from years worth of sermons all taken out of context.

I have said it here before and I will say it again. Trinity UCC is a powerful force for good on the South Side. When I have heard their pastors preach, they have been inspiring, scholarly, and challenging. Do not let this cherry picking of the harshest of his his sermons be your whole idea of this minister or this church.

In other news...

What do we think of this passport thing? A few nosy screwups then an idiot middle manager trying to keep it quiet? It is always the cover up that'll get you.

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Morbo
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Too soon to tell about the passport scandal. If it's just curious and stupid contractors snooping, it'll blow over quick. If it leads to others, in the Bush, McCain or Clinton camps, it could really have legs.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
I can't follow that reasoning, and I personally won't engage that on whatever its merits are supposed to be. As far as I'm concerned, September 11th was a statement of selfish self-pity. I didn't get what I wanted so everyone is going to pay.
There's a huge difference between engaging the reasoning and justifying it.

America's actions (good and bad) in part fed into what happened. Understanding why 9/11 happened (And not dismissing it as just selfish self-pity) is important to some people. There's a lot going on there and, if we want to prevent it from happening again (and, at the most optimistic, foster a world where people don't want to do that) we need to understand what happened.

Understanding does not mean condoning, nor does showing how what America did contributed to this occurring necessarily blame America nor exonerate the people who did it.

Taking the simplistic approach leads to a "War on Terrorism" that has as one of it's main effects a marked increase in terrorist recruitment (that is, people who likely weren't going to join/aid terrorist groups that have in reaction to what we have done).

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sndrake
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quote:
What do we think of this passport thing? A few nosy screwups then an idiot middle manager trying to keep it quiet? It is always the cover up that'll get you.
There are probably two different levels to this - the gross negligence/inncompetence of the supervisors in these instances vs. the possible motives of the three contract employees who gained unauthorized access to Obama's passport file.

Why do I call it gross negligence/incompetence?

1. Two of the individuals were *fired* which means that that the assistant inspector general doesn't have any real authority to demand their cooperation in an investigation. The only way their participation could be assured is if was handed to DOJ (that will make everyone feel better, I'm sure).

2. Even after three such instances, higher-ups in the State Dept. didn't learn of the events until called by a reporter.

Even people not prone to conspiracy theories can see cause for wanting to investigate this farther - certainly getting more than the general impressions of a supervisor.

The first event was on January 9, followed by February 21st, and March 14th.

January 9th - Day after NH primary
February 21 - Texas Dem debate
March 14 - Wright controversy breaks

Smells, it does.

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Alcon
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It looks like Richardson is going endorse Obama.
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pooka
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I assumed the "God Damn America" had to do with the start of the Iraq offensive. What he was saying in that speech is that America was puffed up in her own pride. His intent, was to remind us that we are a nation "under God." Now I know a lot of people don't like the phrase "One nation under God" but I don't think those are the same people who are blanching at Wright's soundbytes.

That's interesting that Richardson is endorsing Obama. I hope Gore endorses him - though Gore may just not be free to do so.

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ElJay
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CNN's 360 blog has an interesting post about Wright's 9/11 sermon. The reporter is watching the complete sermons, not just the clips being spread around. He says the part that's in the 9/11 clips was actually a quote from Edward Peck, former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and deputy director of President Reagan’s terrorism task force, speaking on Fox news, and he puts it in the broader context of the sermon. It comes across vastly different that way.

Near the end of the post he says "The point that I have always made as a journalist is that our job is to seek the truth, and not the partial truth." Wish more journalists followed that.

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kmbboots
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Thanks for posting that, ElJay. Context.

Trinity's website is pretty interesting. http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

I hope the Obama family can be there for Easter.

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sndrake
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I'd like to add my thanks as well, Eljay.

I have wondered what the context was for each of these little soundbites that's been circulated.

Here's another interesting development, btw.

According to Thinkprogress and at least one other site, Chris Wallace caused a major dust-up today on "Fox and Friends":

quote:
On Fox and Friends this morning, hosts Steve Doocy, Brian Kilmeade, and Gretchen Carlson spent multiple segments sensationalizing a comment Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) made yesterday, in which he referred to his grandmother as “a typical white person” in some of her racial reactions. Obama made the comment while discussing his recent speech on race relations in America on a Philadelphia radio show.

When the trio welcomed Fox News Sunday host Chris Wallace onto the show, instead of previewing his show this weekend, Wallace announced that he was going to take his fellow Fox hosts “to task” for their “excessive” and “somewhat distorting” coverage of what Obama said:

"Hey listen, I love you guys but I want to take you to task if I may, respectfully, for a moment. I have been watching the show since 6:00 this morning when I got up, and it seems to me that two hours of Obama bashing on this typical white person remark is somewhat excessive and frankly I think you’re somewhat distorting what Obama had to say."

Wallace — who said that the issue “was a little more complicated than we’ve been portraying” — went on to chastise his very uncomfortable-looking colleagues for the next five minutes.

There's more about the exchange - and links to actual video of it - on the site.
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Chris Bridges
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Turns out Obama, Clinton, and McCain's passport passport information was all breached.

quote:
The passport files of the three presidential candidates - Sens. Barack Obama, Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain - have been breached, the State Department said Friday.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the breaches of McCain and Clinton's passport files were not discovered until Friday, after officials were made aware of the privacy violation regarding Obama's records and a separate search was conducted.



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pooka
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Ohio investigating "malicious" party switching.
Whoa. I didn't think anyone could actually get in trouble for this.

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aspectre
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Personally I'd love to be amongst the lawyers representing the group prosecuted, if matters were to go that far.
No conviction likely, and getting the contingency fees from multi-million dollar settlements of civil lawsuits launched against RushLimbaugh&Clones would be worth the time&hassle of fighting the criminal charges in court.

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Morbo
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Ahhh, I see from the link because they signed affidavits they are technically at legal risk. Interesting, but I'd be shocked if anyone is actually prosecuted.
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aspectre
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So would I. The existence of the law itself feels too much like it was designed to punish thought-crime.
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kmbboots
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I'm glad this is getting attention if only because it chips away at Senator Clinton's "more electable" story.
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aspectre
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When compared to the previous 2to1 to 3to1 ratio in favor of Obama amongst Republicans and independents before*McCain locked up the Republican nomination, Thread's link to the Clinton campaign's "In Mississippi, he won only 25% of Republicans and barely half of independents." suggested that at least 5/8ths of the crossover consisted of McCain supporters voting for Clinton in hope of selecting the easiest DemocraticNominee to beat in the GeneralElection.
Or failing that, in hope of ensuring that a DemocraticNationalConvention floorfight would occur.

* ie before Romney dropped out of the contest.

[ March 21, 2008, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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ElJay
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CNN 360 has up it's next post about the full context of Wright's sermons, this time the God Damn America one. Long quotes from the sermon in this one. Again, very interesting to see more of what surrounds the inflammatory soundbite.
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Lyrhawn
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The context is interesting. I don't agree with him on some points (the government invented HIV to attack black people? Wha?), but I could imagine how in person once he gets into a rhythm, that must be rather impressive. And though I disagree, I don't think it's especially heinous.

On the specific part of the sermon that is shown on the news, even just showing the whole paragraph in question I think lessens the shock of what he is saying. He's basically taking America to task for her history, her hypocrisy, and her crimes. For the most part, you certainly can't say he's wrong.

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Lisa
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He's wrong. I guess you were, too.
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Lyrhawn
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You're certainly entitled to your opinion Lisa.

Though I'm curious as to how you arrived at it.

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Juxtapose
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I suspect Lisa's comment was tongue-in-cheek. She did indeed say "he's wrong."
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pooka
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How long is Cheney going to hang around Israel? Is this a strategy to get him killed, so Bush can appoint a kinder, gentler VP to enter the race? If I were serious about this conspiracy theory, I would think Condi Rice.
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Lyrhawn
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You kiddin? Cheney as the VP is the only thing keeping Bush alive.
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aspectre
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Dubya's alive??? I thought ya hadda have a heart. Advancements in cyborging must be farther along than I woulda guessed.

[ March 23, 2008, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Juxtapose:
I suspect Lisa's comment was tongue-in-cheek. She did indeed say "he's wrong."

Yes and no. On the one hand, yes, I was responding to his assertion that you can't say he's wrong. I can, and I did.

But on the other hand, he's wrong. Casting aspersions on "America" because of the misdeeds of some, including some who are dead and buried for over 100 years, is just stupid. I mean, not even just stupid, but dangerously stupid. And justifying it in any way, shape or form is something that doesn't surprise me at all coming from Barack Obama, who I've been saying all along is a very dangerous man. I just find it sad to see anyone but Irami doing so here.

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Sid Meier
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We can cast aspersions, many problems of today can be linked to the slavery of black people it takes willful ignorance to not see it.
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Lyrhawn
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Two things,

One, the part I was specifically referring to when I said "you can't say he's wrong" was what he was talking about on American foreign policy, and that's in the last 40 and 50 years, which is certainly fair game. You're talking about the speech in general, but I could see how'd you be confused, though somehow I think you'll still disagree with me.

Second, I don't think Obama was really justifying it. His speech condemned it really. He took a different track on explaining what Wright was talking about, the anger in the black community and where it came from, and the problems in the white community and where it came from, and then said that Wright's way was wrong, and that we need to fix it. It was a rejection of Wright's style entirely. It was part sociology lesson, part history lesson and part motivational speech.

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Lisa
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That anger in the black community is not justifiable. It's an excuse. People like Wright set up demons to hate, and his community eats it up. And Obama was just fine with it all until it came up as an issue in the campaign.

Is anyone supposed to believe that he just now found out about all the things his pastor said? He lost votes over this, and the shame is that he lost so few.

Sure, Hillary's an opportunist. But she isn't claiming to be some lily-white (pardon the expression) avatar of hope.

I've finally settled on the order in which I'd pick the four remaining candidates:
  • Obviously, I prefer Ron Paul. And if, by some stroke of luck, McCain manages to do himself out of his candidacy and Dr. Paul manages to get the nomination, I'll obviously be voting for him.
  • If my only choices are between Hillary, Obama and McCain, I'll probably vote McCain. All three of them will be horrible. None of them have committed realistically to ending the war. All of them will continue to destroy the US economy. But of the three, McCain is the least likely to meddle in Israel's affairs.
  • I'll never have to worry about a contest between Hillary and Obama, because I already voted in the Republican primary. But if I had to pick one of them and I had no other options at all... I'd probably vote for Hillary. Better an opportunist that doesn't really hide it than a fake like Obama.
Then again, if Ron Paul doesn't get the Republican nomination, I may just write him in.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Second, I don't think Obama was really justifying it. His speech condemned it really.

I want to add that this is a good example of what we call "weasel words". Had he condemned it, you would have said, "He condemned it." Or "His speech condemned it." Saying "His speech condemned it, really" is just another way of saying, "Even though his speech didn't actually condemn it, it's sort of like he kind of did."
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Humean316
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quote:
That anger in the black community is not justifiable. It's an excuse. People like Wright set up demons to hate, and his community eats it up. And Obama was just fine with it all until it came up as an issue in the campaign.
Hey cool. Maybe, just maybe this can actually be a discussion.

I believe that the anger the black community feels is justified, just as the anger the white community feels, and just as the Latino community feels. For decades, we have been stuck in this endless cycle of sensationalism and sound-bite, we boil everything down to it's root components in order to display it to the masses under the false impression that middle America is too stupid, that southern people are too backward, and that everyone else simply doesn't care. Thus, our problems have become corporate by design, they are problems to be spoken of superficially and then discarded as if this lip-service we pay them can somehow solve the problem, and then, we are expected to move on to the next problem or social cause with our heads held high.

For instance, we here in America talk a good game when it comes to Darfur, but do we really do anything about it? Other than pay it lip-service in order to sate that liberal guilt we feel? I don't think so...

And in that very cycle, one passed from issue to issue in order to get us to be the consumers and nielson households that really matter in this new corporate America, we become apathetic because it's impossible to care about all the worlds problems. And it's easier for us to simply not care about anything anyway.

Of course, race is no different. The white community believes that racism and prejudice aren't real issues anymore, we think affirmative action has already taken "our" jobs, we ended slavery, fought a war, and we get the thanks of being racists if we dare challenge the notion that African-American's deserve these "perks". The African American community, in turn, sees the superficial efforts of White America to "integrate" 40 years after Brown, the prejudice of Mandatory Minimum laws, the biases of the legal system with regard to capital punishment, and a Constitution that once said that by virtue of their skin color, they were only 3/5th's a person. The Latino community in turn sees the divides between their labor and the labor of a white man, they see the debate over illegal immigration as focused on their skin color and their heritage, they understand the betrayal of the black community for it's failure to include Latino's as they searched for freedom and equality, and through it all, they understand and resent those in this country who will allow them to pick up their trash and do their manual labor, but at a reduced cost. And when thats done, it's back to Mexico for you...

Yet, there are issues that create this hatred, as I spoke of earlier, and those issues help to both justify and allow us to understand the complexity of the issues we face. However, how do we deal with those complex and justifiable issues? Obama said that he was once in the church when he said he wasn't and Don Imus should simply be fired. Yeah, because firing Don Imus gets at the real heart of the issue.

Doesn't sound like we are truly dealing with anything, and of course, we can't until we get past the idea that simplicity and pandering are the means in which we deal with serious issues amongst these groups in America. We cannot deal with these issues until we take a serious look at Black America, at White America, at Latino America, and the rest of America, and understand that their anger is justifiable and real. As real and palpable as that resentment about Affirmative Action is in White America, so it is in the rest of America that racial wounds divide us, and our solution seems to be to blame others and look elsewhere for the prejudice that we ourselves *surely* could not hold within ourselves.

Predictably, it is the same within the political sphere, we have problems that cut deep at the heart of what makes America great, we have problems that divide us and allow the corrupt and insidious to prosper, and our solution seems to be to embrace apathy, nihilism, and to look outside of ourselves for problems that reside in our own heart. In our own heart. Let me say it again, in our own heart!

We have an open wound in this country, one born of years of hatred and prejudice, a scar that has never fully healed because instead of seriously dealing with the problem, we have met this great challenge with cliche, opportunism, capitalism, patriotism, and the headline. Is it any wonder that White America resents Black America? Is it any wonder that Latino America resents Black America? Is it any wonder that Black America returns the favor in kind?

See, the hatred and prejudice of this country is something we can hide from the rest of the world, it is something that this still fledgling nation can sweep under the rug, we can hide behind our flag or our president, we can dismiss it without reproach, but in the end, it will always be there in the attitudes of those who see first hand the racial divides of this country. In other words, we can hide it from the rest of the world, but no matter how hard we try, we cannot hide it from ourselves.

The question is, will we allow this endless cycle of hatred, prejudice, and violence to continue? Or will we be strong and brave, stand up, and face the harshest of truths?

That we are both the cause of and solution to our own problems. Lets see what happens...

Edited because I like spelling things correctly and maintaining at least a modicum of decent grammar.

[ March 23, 2008, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Humean316 ]

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Second, I don't think Obama was really justifying it. His speech condemned it really.

I want to add that this is a good example of what we call "weasel words". Had he condemned it, you would have said, "He condemned it." Or "His speech condemned it." Saying "His speech condemned it, really" is just another way of saying, "Even though his speech didn't actually condemn it, it's sort of like he kind of did."
And I'd like to add that this is a good example of what we call "over thinking what someone else said." Seriously. He said Wright was wrong. I don't know what you get out of parsing language to that fine a degree.

quote:
That anger in the black community is not justifiable. It's an excuse.
That seems like a great way to make sure it never goes away. When dealing with an angery opponent, I don't think the best way to achieve rational discourse is to tell them they are being irrational. I think that's likely to only piss them off more. They DO have justifiable reasont o be angry. Are all their reasons valid? No, but then the "black community" doesn't speak with one voice, and they don't move together, they're all over the spectrum. Needless to say there's a lot of junk arguments in there like slavery reparations, but there is also some valid stuff like what Humean mentioned (the thing that jumps out most to me is Mandatory Minimums, which may not be intentionally so, but by the nature of what happens they DO target blacks).

Personally I think there are plenty of whites in the upper echelons that love affirmative action. Rich white people get to use AA has a peace offering because it's a really, really cheap way to ignore a lot of valid problems. Affirmative action in the schools, where I think the spotlight is generally focused doesn't cost a thing, but it saves them from actually having to spend money on ending crime in the inner city or increasing educational quality, which are two of the biggest things that put inner city education on a lower plane than that of the suburbs. I don't think that's automatically racist either, frankly I think it's classist, but it's just one more decent excuse to be pissed.

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