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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » General thread drift SHOWDOOOWN June 1st 2:09 MST (Page 2)

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Author Topic: General thread drift SHOWDOOOWN June 1st 2:09 MST
Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
... Therefore I have to give this warning. If large meteorites which usually are guided away from inhabited areas, or exploded harmlessly in the upper atmosphere, are allowed to strike inhabited regions, you will know that the angels of God have been ordered to "stand down."

Nonsense. Bruce Willis never stands down.

...

Oh who am I kidding, this quote has to be self-satire, no?

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Synesthesia
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It's not really new, it's just-

A. Not every Christian believes homosexuality is a sin.
B. The bible isn't the book of law for this country. By trying to push the point of view that homosexuality (which is a cumbersome word) is a sin and as a result gay marriage shouldn't be allowed and should be voted against, folks with that point of view are only a few steps away from being... well, like hard core Muslims.
They've got waaaaaaaay more in common with right wing Christians than liberal lefty gay activist, which they'd hate and fight with....

Not to totally diss Right Wing Christians, but... well... [Dont Know]

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scifibum
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I thought angels were busy dancing in roadhouses and having fun with fornication.
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kmbboots
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Ron, I will repeat what I have said before. Your understanding of Christianity is about as far from mine as it is possible to get.
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Ron Lambert
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Regardless of how hateful and contemptuous any of you may be toward Christians who base their faith and belief system on the Bible, we do still exist, and are a large and legitimate social group in America. The founders of our country were almost all avowed Christians, and you only have to consult what they actually wrote to see how religious and serious about Christian values most of them were.

kmboots: So you are far from the Bible?

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The Pixiest
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Boots isn't hateful of anybody, near as I can tell.

I think you're projecting, Ron.

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Occasional
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kmbboots, what you said doesn't invalidate Ron's Christianity. It also doesn't invalidate that he shares that interpretation of Christianity with a huge portion of those who are active Christians. In fact, I would go one step farther and say that your version of Christianity (among those who are Sunday attending believers) is a minority.
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kmbboots
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Ron, from your understanding of the Bible.
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Occasional
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From A LOT of Christian's understanding of the Bible.
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kmbboots
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As you are far from A LOT of Christians' understanding of the Bible.
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scifibum
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Ron, how do you manage such gravitas and authority? Never a "as far as I can tell", "in my opinion", "according to respected Bible scholars" - nary a qualification. Such certainty must come at a price.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
From A LOT of Christian's understanding of the Bible.

quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
As you are far from A LOT of Christians' understanding of the Bible.

Aside: this is giving me serious deja vu.
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babager
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While most of our founders may have been Christian, they still understood the wisdom and necessity of Separation of Church and State.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
And just so there is no doubt. I am saying that there will be serious disasters that will certainly fall on America if the decision is made on the national level to allow unions between same-sex couples to be called marriage. I believe it is an absolute certainty. Therefore I have to give this warning.

I need to get you a sign that you can carry around street corners. A big old sign.

You must get this message out, Ron! Make sure people know that legalizing gay marriage means that meteors will strike us. Pace up and down downtown streets to make sure people know.

You have a beard, right? If you don't, grow one quick. It will give you more gravitas.

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MightyCow
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I have a feeling that Ron already spends all his non-Hatrack time walking around streets with a big sign. He's on a mission from God.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
And just so there is no doubt. I am saying that there will be serious disasters that will certainly fall on America if the decision is made on the national level to allow unions between same-sex couples to be called marriage. I believe it is an absolute certainty. Therefore I have to give this warning. If large meteorites which usually are guided away from inhabited areas, or exploded harmlessly in the upper atmosphere, are allowed to strike inhabited regions, you will know that the angels of God have been ordered to "stand down."

For the sake of curiosity, as far as biblical crimes go, America, and the world in general for that matter, has done far worse things than allow gays to marry. It's not even one of the 10 commandments. Why would god stand idly by while rapes and murders go unhindered by divine interference, genocides are met with famines that only kill more of the innocent, and all the while we slowly destroy the natural world through apathy and ignorance...

But once we start to let the gays marry it'll start raining meteors?

It's a serious question. Forget for a moment the fact that I think the idea of divine punishment is ludicrous, and answer me from your own thoughts on why gay marriage is so incredibly heinous (also ignore that acts of homosexuality have also been ongoing for thousands of years) and against the will of God, that he'd ignore all these other atrocities and single us out for punishment because of it.

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Tresopax
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quote:
Such certainty must come at a price.
Indeed.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Regardless of how hateful and contemptuous any of you may be toward Christians who base their faith and belief system on the Bible, we do still exist, and are a large and legitimate social group in America. The founders of our country were almost all avowed Christians, and you only have to consult what they actually wrote to see how religious and serious about Christian values most of them were.
Ron, I don't see how you get off telling anyone else they're hateful.

Someone who proclaims that God will allow horrible natural disasters to strike Americans because of their stance on civil issues, and doesn't think that's a hideous thing for God to do...well, it's pretty difficult for me to separate 'hate' from that particular outlook.

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Grinwell
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:

How much of a difference in spirit is there really between the extremist gay rights activists, and the Muslim Jihadists, who similarly are not content with the mere toleration of others, but are so demanding that everyone submit to their religion and adopt their values, that they are willing to declare open war against all who refuse to accept the Muslim faith?

The group which infiltrated a church last year has recently been sued. They seem happy to adopt the garb, speech and tactics of jihadists. They have chapters across the U.S. and members who believe "that Queer people must work to end marriage rather than participate in the oppressive facade that is 'marriage equality.' In preserving our culture and uprooting patriarchy, it is important for us to critically examine marriage (gay, straight, or otherwise) and create a culture of disgust surrounding it."
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BlackBlade
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Anarchy and gay rights are hardly incompatible. I don't see anything phenomenally interesting about the group. I'm certain there are Christian anarchists who believe the only valid form of government is God's government.
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Armoth
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I think homosexuality is a sin - but I'm also a big fan of the separation of church and state.

And, in general, I leave the punishment of sin to God. While it is alright to hold believing and practicing Christians to a certain standard - how can the fact that I believe something is a sin cause me to legislate against someone else?

I'm Jewish - isn't that a bigger sin than being gay? I'm really happy that we have the separation of church and state in a country that is largely christian.

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Rakeesh
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quote:


How much of a difference in spirit is there really between the extremist gay rights activists, and the Muslim Jihadists, who similarly are not content with the mere toleration of others, but are so demanding that everyone submit to their religion and adopt their values, that they are willing to declare open war against all who refuse to accept the Muslim faith?

Ron, this is a profoundly deceptive and stupid question.

How many stories have you heard about extreme gay-rights activists strapping on explosive vests and mass-murdering their opponents in restaurants or churches or something?

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
... what you said doesn't invalidate Ron's Christianity. It also doesn't invalidate that he shares that interpretation of Christianity with a huge portion of those who are active Christians ...

Huh.

I guess you learn something new everyday. A huge portion of active Christians you say?

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
From Armoth:
I'm Jewish - isn't that a bigger sin than being gay? I'm really happy that we have the separation of church and state in a country that is largely christian.

Traditionally, even people under the Christian umbrella aren't necessarily safe. I now direct you to the history of Catholicism in America. The separation of church and state was pretty weak at protecting Catholics for a couple centuries in this nation's history.
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Ron Lambert
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Lyrhawn, and others, just as a reminder, I did not say that meteorites would fall on our cities because of any sin. I said that when God's authority as Creator is directly defied by the highest government in the land, there must be consequences, including a major withdrawal of divine protection and blessing. Since we living in a shooting gallery in our solar system, this is a vital necessity, which we can scarcely afford to do without.

I did concede that there are worse sins than homosexual behavior. But the issue is one of divine authority, more than sin.

Marriage and the Sabbath are the two things that God instituted in Eden before the entrance of sin. Both exclusively depend upon the authority of God. It is interesting that many Christian churches take the lead in disregarding both of these Edenic institutions. Many will even say the Ten Commandments do not apply to all humanity, just so they can get around the Sabbath Commandment. And many feel their duty is to be so tolerant and forgiving--of infidelity and adultery and divorce, as well as of homosexual behavior, that they just shrug off the fact that same-sex marriage is a direct defiance of the Creator's authority.

Armoth, the founders of our country insisted upon the non-establishment clause in our constitution's first amendment, because of their Christian beliefs. They were virtually all Protestants, who looked with great suspicion upon the church of Rome, which had subjected Europe to centuries of religious wars, and even in England the Anglican church had persecuted dissenters. That is why the founders of our country wanted it clear that the federal government was not to favor or lend its support to any edicts or institutions (establishments) of any one denomination.

[ May 27, 2009, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Marriage and the Sabbath are the two things that God instituted in Eden before the entrance of sin.

Wrong. The Sabbath was instituted at Marah in the desert, after the Exodus and before we got to Sinai. God blessed it and sanctified it in Eden, but He didn't command that it be observed or remembered until almost 2500 years later.

Video about Ron

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Synethesia, no one who believes the Bible is God's authoritative Word can ever regard homosexuality as not being sin, because the Bible does explicitly say it is.

Garbage. It says that anal sex between two men is forbidden. That doesn't make homosexuality a sin. There are any number of kinds of heterosexual intercourse that are forbidden; that doesn't make heterosexuality a sin either.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
How do you define human rights? Human rights most properly are considered to be those things which human nature requires. There can be no human right for same-sex marriage, because that kind of union is contrary to human nature, and is not in the best interests of the human race.

Bite me. It's not contrary to my nature, and last I checked, I was a proud member of homo sapiens.
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Grinwell
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Separation of church and state is very wise, but so is acknowledging a moral center (like the nation's fathers) when deciding what is best for society collectively. If we act under the assumption that "what is right is whatever works for you", then we will have a society where there is no good or evil, right or wrong, truth or falsehood. Rabbi Miller recently spoke about this attitude and its frightening effect on the rising generation. He doesn't touch on gay marriage, but raises fascinating questions about the place of God in society and the consequences of rejecting divine authority.
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kmbboots
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Grinwell, would you like for me to decide where your moral center should be and what is right and good for you?

I have some pretty firm opinions about what God wants you to do and not do. Would you like those opinions to become law?

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Samprimary
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quote:
so is acknowledging a moral center (like the nation's fathers) when deciding what is best for society collectively.
So if we are supposed to acknowledge a moral center based on the religion of the nation's founders, then I guess we're supposed to be deist and definitely not christian.

The first issue with this is that the notion that we have to acknowledge this moral center is an argument posited pretty much exclusively by Christians operating on the premise that America was founded on Christian morality.

The second issue is overall the notion that we have to use the moral center of the peoples of the time as a way to decide 'what is best for society collectively' since necessarily if we adopt the morality of the founding fathers, we're adopting all the chaff from the morality of the age; slavery is now 'best for society collectively,' among other things.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Lyrhawn, and others, just as a reminder, I did not say that meteorites would fall on our cities because of any sin. I said that when God's authority as Creator is directly defied by the highest government in the land, there must be consequences, including a major withdrawal of divine protection and blessing. Since we living in a shooting gallery in our solar system, this is a vital necessity, which we can scarcely afford to do without.
So defying God's authority as Creator is to be met with...horrible rocky flaming meteor death? I guess we may as well dispense with the idea that people can choose to be Christians, then. A choice made under that sort of duress doesn't really count as a choice at all, or else why are we throwing all these mafiosos in jail?

A God who would send widespread death in response to this 'defiance' is no God at all, Ron, and the sooner that particular God is thrown out of any reasonable discussion on civil matters, the better.

Just so we're clear, though, there is morally very little if any difference between sending meteors and allowing them to fall when it is completely within your power not to do so.

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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
... So defying God's authority as Creator is to be met with...horrible rocky flaming meteor death? I guess we may as well dispense with the idea that people can choose to be Christians, then. ...

Only in the US. Technically, he did say "the land" which seems to imply that it is only the United States that is under this flaming meteor duress which would seem to be consistent with Canada's lack of meteor activity.
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Samprimary
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fascinating.

*puffs on bubble pipe*

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Mucus
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Indeed.
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Darth_Mauve
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Ron, still don't see much of a difference...

A) If you allow gays to be married God will send meteor's to strike our country.

B) If you allow gays to be married the defenders that God put in heaven, who bat away the meteors that God put in heaven, so that those meteors won't strike our country, will leave allowing the meteors to strike our country.

Oh, wait. Now I see the difference.

In one you are saying God is vengeful. In the second you are saying God is blackmailing us with those meteors.

The Bible also has a comment in there about not worshiping an Idol. I think that many of the most fundamental of the Christians have crossed the line and have started treating the Bible like an Idol.

It is, after all, created by man. Check the front--it has a publishing date.

While you claim that it was written only after endless hours of prayer and divine inspiration, the same was said by those who made the idols of Baal.

Be careful that you do not worship the Word instead of worshiping the God who gave it into man's fallible hands.

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Grinwell
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Kmbboots,
That's the rabbi's point. In a society where there is no accepted standard of morality, everyone will decide what is good/right/true for themselves based on their own biases. The most persuasive and powerful group will make Right. I hope that the resulting law will be as fair as possible to both sides. We want everyone to have their rights, even those sign-carrying religionists.

But what do I do with this guy at my door selling Rocky Flaming Meteor Insurance? [Wink]

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Magson
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
so is acknowledging a moral center (like the nation's fathers) when deciding what is best for society collectively.
So if we are supposed to acknowledge a moral center based on the religion of the nation's founders, then I guess we're supposed to be deist and definitely not christian.
Considering only 3 of the authors of the Constitution were Deists, while the vast majority were some version of Protestants, I'd say you set yourself up a pretty flimsy strawman there.

You are correct that the founders didn't want a specific denomination to rise to prominence, however, you are completely and utterly incorrect that they didn't think that religion and religious instruction were absolutely vital to the success of their newly created republic.

Ben Franklin (one of the 3 aforementioned Deists") in his autobiography wrote rather specific definitions of what he believed "public religion" should be, regardless of denomination, saying:
quote:
“Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render to him in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points of all Sound Religion.”
John Adams later wrote a letter to Thomas Jefferson, wherein he stated:
quote:
“The general Principles, on which the Fathers achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite . . . . And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence...Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.” (emphasis mine)
I will absolutely agree with you that there's no mention made of a specific denomination, and that is, I believe, a good thing. But to say there's no religious basis at all is to deny the writings of the founders, which makes you either ignorant or a liar. Either way, it does your argument no favors.
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kmbboots
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Grinwell, the Rabbi's point was that moral relativism is dangerous. My point is not that there is no moral center. My point, which the Rabbi did not address, is that none of us has a direct and provable line to that moral center.

The majority has proved no better at finding that moral center than the minority or even single individuals.

Until we find someone who has a demonstrable to everyone capability to judge where that moral center is, "whatever works for you" is the best we should do. Barring, of course that whatever works does no demonstrable harm.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Considering only 3 of the authors of the Constitution were Deists, while the vast majority were some version of Protestants, I'd say you set yourself up a pretty flimsy strawman there.
I'd like to see which sources claim authoritatively that exactly three of the founding fathers were deists, and no more.

Let's start with that.

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Ron Lambert
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Lisa, you apparently still cannot read Genesis 2:2,3 and acknowledge what it plainly says. Nor will you acknowledge that Exodus 20:11 clearly says the reason why the Sabbath was made was to serve as a memorial of Creation.

God meant for the Jews to be a good example to the rest of humanity. Part of that example was enlighted laws of sanitation, diet, providing for the poor, regular jubilees every 49 years to free everyone in bonded servitude, and keeping the memorial of God's Creation. Since God created everyone, not just the Jews, the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation for everyone.

While I know you do not accept the New Testament as part of the Bible, Christians do, and Christians can read Romans chapter one (especially verses 26, 27).

Darth_Mauve, there IS a difference. If we officially, as a nation, approve of same-sex marriage, then GOD WILL NOT PREVENT meteorites from striking inhabited regions. The late Eugene Shoemaker of the U.S. Geological Survey said that on average, a meteorite strikes earth yielding energy equivalent to the Hiroshima atomic bomb blast, at least once a year. We live in a shooting gallery, here in the inner solar system. Just look at the Moon, and notice all the craters.

Please note that the withdrawal of present protection is not the same thing as deliberately causing ruin and destruction. That will be our fault, not His. How long can you rebel against the Source of Life and expect to go on living?

Also, a minor point: Meteors are what they are called when they are still in space. When they strike earth they are called meteorites.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Grinwell:
Separation of church and state is very wise, but so is acknowledging a moral center (like the nation's fathers) when deciding what is best for society collectively. If we act under the assumption that "what is right is whatever works for you", then we will have a society where there is no good or evil, right or wrong, truth or falsehood. Rabbi Miller recently spoke about this attitude and its frightening effect on the rising generation. He doesn't touch on gay marriage, but raises fascinating questions about the place of God in society and the consequences of rejecting divine authority.

Any "rabbi" who spoke at an interfaith center isn't much of a rabbi.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
If we officially, as a nation, approve of same-sex marriage, then GOD WILL NOT PREVENT meteorites from striking inhabited regions. The late Eugene Shoemaker of the U.S. Geological Survey said that on average, a meteorite strikes earth yielding energy equivalent to the Hiroshima atomic bomb blast, at least once a year. We live in a shooting gallery, here in the inner solar system. Just look at the Moon, and notice all the craters.

1. The moon doesn't have an atmosphere.

2. These strikes have occurred in inhabited and uninhabited regions alike, so what you're saying God is preventing is actually already happening. It's not like uninhabited areas are getting all of these cataclysmic impacts and there's just a city-sized crater accumulating every year off where nobody lives.

3. Basically, you're assuring us that God has all these meteors aimed directly at us in order to have angels deflect them last-minute. I guess it would be too easy just to not have them on a collision trajectory in the first place. That, or your version of God is using meteors the same way an abusive boyfriend uses the back of a palm. Always raising it, ready to slap, and say something like "why you gotta make me do this, womman, why you gotta make me do this to you"

I mean, it's already been remarked quite plainly that your image of god evokes a paranoid, brutish, and dumb creature that uses macro-level infliction of pain and tragedy in stupid ways to attempt to elicit fawning complaince, but for god's sake why do you constantly have to keep coming up with even dumber conceptualizations of the big guy. You're like Pat Robertson telling Dover County, PA that it's going to roast in cataclysm because it put Intelligent Design on trial.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Lisa, you apparently still cannot read Genesis 2:2,3 and acknowledge what it plainly says. Nor will you acknowledge that Exodus 20:11 clearly says the reason why the Sabbath was made was to serve as a memorial of Creation.

Genesis 2:2,3 - "And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it He rested from all His work which God in creating had made."

There's absolutely nothing there about "keep the Sabbath day" or "remember the Sabbath day".

Exodus 20:11 - "For in six days God made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore God blessed the Sabbath day, and sanctified it"

This is the reason given for the commandment in Exodus 20:8 - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." The commandment was given then (actually, shortly earlier at Marah), but the historical thing that underlies the holiness of the day took place in Eden.

You're so desperate to distort this into the Sabbath, as a requirement, having started in Eden that I've got Johnny One Note stuck in my head again. Get another song, Ron.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
God meant for the Jews to be a good example to the rest of humanity. Part of that example was enlighted laws of sanitation, diet, providing for the poor, regular jubilees every 49 years to free everyone in bonded servitude, and keeping the memorial of God's Creation. Since God created everyone, not just the Jews, the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation for everyone.

It's a memorial of Creation, period. But as to what the Sabbath is, I'll just have to go with what God Himself said in Exodus 31:13-17 - "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily you shall keep My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am God who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to God; whoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. And the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days God made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He ceased from work and rested."

"Holy unto you." "Holy to God." "A sign between Me and the children of Israel." "Throughout their generations." (twice.)

Sounds to me like God is saying that Shabbat is holy to us like it's holy to Him, that it's a sign between Him and us, and that it's for our generations. Which is to say those of the children of Israel.

You can keep accusing me of not reading what the words say, but it's clearly you who isn't doing that.

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Please note that the withdrawal of present protection is not the same thing as deliberately causing ruin and destruction. That will be our fault, not His. How long can you rebel against the Source of Life and expect to go on living?

I don't know. You're a rebel against God, after all. He said the Sabbath is given to the Jews, and you say it's given to everyone. Have you considered taking out meteorite insurance?
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Rappin' Ronnie Reagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Grinwell:
Separation of church and state is very wise, but so is acknowledging a moral center (like the nation's fathers) when deciding what is best for society collectively. If we act under the assumption that "what is right is whatever works for you", then we will have a society where there is no good or evil, right or wrong, truth or falsehood. Rabbi Miller recently spoke about this attitude and its frightening effect on the rising generation. He doesn't touch on gay marriage, but raises fascinating questions about the place of God in society and the consequences of rejecting divine authority.

Any "rabbi" who spoke at an interfaith center isn't much of a rabbi.
Why?
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Please note that the withdrawal of present protection is not the same thing as deliberately causing ruin and destruction. That will be our fault, not His. How long can you rebel against the Source of Life and expect to go on living?
Ron, I've already addressed that. Functionally speaking, there is little if any moral difference between actually executing an action and merely allowing something to happen, especially when one is omnipotent, as I assume you believe God to be.

"Do what I say, or I'll withdraw My 'protection' resulting in devastating natural disaster," Ron, where in the hell - pun intended - is the choice in that?

You don't get to say, "I want people to be free to choose to follow Christ," and also believe in something like that. The two notions are completely at odds with each other. It's spiritual extortion. Your God is apparently in the rackets.

I wouldn't normally put this in such blunt, insulting terms, but I can't think of another way to express how downright terrible what you're saying is. You come close to acknowledging it, at least, when you ask your question about rebelling.

Let me point out that if the consequence for rebellion is indiscriminate devastation and death, the being being rebelled against is by definition a tyrant.

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Lyrhawn
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Well here's what I want to know.

What did those dinosaurs do to piss off God?

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Rakeesh
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Do you hafta even ask? Clearly the worst sort of sexual deviants, the lot of `em.
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Elmer's Glue
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They were atheists.
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MattP
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quote:
But to say there's no religious basis at all is to deny the writings of the founders, which makes you either ignorant or a liar.
While I have no problem acknowledging that many of the founders were nominally Christian, I don't think many of them would be accepted as Christians by those in modern times that choose the label.

Regardless of their personal beliefs, it's notable that mentions of God are absent from both the Constitution and from the Federalist Papers, the purpose of which was to argue for the passage of the Constitution to a largely Christian populace. When documenting the sources upon which the principles of the Constitution were derived, several previous philosophies and systems of law were cited. Nary a word of the Bible or Jesus. In fact some of the primary opposition to the Constitution was from those who objected to its godlessness.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
While I have no problem acknowledging that many of the founders were nominally Christian, I don't think many of them would be accepted as Christians by those in modern times that choose the label.
I think that's a stretch, Matt. Maybe if you modified that to 'modern fundamentalist Christians', I'd agree.
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