quote: Edward Allen Bernero parlayed 10 years as a Chicago police officer into a successful career putting cops on the TV screen. Entering the TV biz as a freelance writer for Brooklyn South, Bernero created the long-running crime series Third Watch, rising to the position of showrunner and remaining the series’ most prolific writer. Now, Bernero just passed the 100th episode milestone at the helm of the scariest show on television: CBS’ Criminal Minds. In fact, according to Bernero, the only thing scarier than the serial killer “unsubs” (unidentified subjects) is the TV development biz.
quote:ON TV CONTENT FOR MEN, WOMEN, AND THE NETWORKS
DH: When you look at the CBS lineup, I guess it’s the network that seems to have a lock on crime with the multiple CSI’s and Criminal Minds – but it’s controlled by two women, Nina Tassler and Nancy Tellem. And my understanding is that they are looking for more shows that have more female appeal. I just wondered what the deal is.
EB: That’s a point I’ve thought about a lot in developing over the last few years. Let’s see if I can say this without ending my development career. It’s very female, development. Development staffs are almost all female. It’s not that easy to get a male skewed show through development.
DH: Interesting.
EB: Most of the network television audience now is primarily women, but I think that’s because the shows are developed to appeal to women. I don’t know that there are too many shows that appeal to guys anymore. I’m not sure why that is, but I think that it may have something to do with the fact that most development staffs are women. I know it’s the case at CBS. I know it’s the case at ABC. Not that these are not brilliant women, but there’s a completely different sensibility in men and women, in what men watch and what women watch. Part of the erosion of network television is that men watch sports – there’s not that much on for them. There are not shows that have male themes. That’s all I want to say about that.
DH: And yet at CBS, besides the crime shows even the popular comedies are male-oriented, Two and a Half Men and The Big Bang Theory.
EB: But Two and a Half Men is not male-oriented, it’s made to appeal to women. Charlie Sheen is playing a bad boy who can be changed…
DH: It’s got a lot of jokes that my husband likes.
EB: But it’s safe.
DH: What is male oriented?
EB: For example, almost all dramas are families, they are work families – ER is a good example, Criminal Minds is a good example. We have a character who is the mother, a character who is the father, a brother and a sister, we have the younger brother that everybody protects, we have the cute cousin…it’s very much a family, and I think that very much appeals to women.
You don’t see loners anymore, you don’t see a Mannix or a Rockford Files or something where it’s a tough guy standing against the world. It doesn’t appeal to women. Guys like a guy who stands up for right, and the Hawaii Five-0 that we were going to write, the issue was sort of like living up to your father, being a cop in a world where your father was a great cop, that’s really a male theme. Women don’t really compete with their mothers; men compete with their fathers. I know I had gotten into many conversations where people didn’t understand why it was important that the character be in competition with his father…men compete with their fathers.
DH: Men compete with everybody. Everything’s a competition.
EB: Right. Two and a Half Men is an example. Those two don’t really compete with each other. It’s not really two brothers living with each other, because two brothers living together don’t get along that well.
DH: Aren’t they like The Odd Couple?
EB: But The Odd Couple is different, because in the 1970s, the "Odd Couple" didn’t like each other. They competed with each other in ways that these two don’t. Because at the base of it all, they [Two and Half Men’s characters] really love each other.
DH: More like My Two Dads.
EB: It’s a subtle thing, but it’s very female-centered. Now, I don’t mean to say that I don’t love doing shows that women like – women like Criminal Minds, and women weren’t supposed to like this show. Our core audience is 35-40 year old women, who I think are an amazing audience. It didn’t surprise me at all, when you put on the show where those women are the primary targets of these monsters, and you put on a show where our team saves women from them every week, I don’t know how this couldn’t appeal to them.
DH: And women are very interested in character, as opposed to what you’re saying -- that sometimes men just like a straight-on hero who does it right.
EB: Yes, I think it’s extremely difficult to get a male themed show on television.
DH: The people who are running the networks are men, but the so-called creative executives, that whole level is mostly female.
EB: If you say this, make sure that you say that I’m not necessarily saying that’s bad…
DH: Just that it’s true.
EB: The TV audience is primarily female, so it’s not a bad thing…
DH: But if you have something that works on that male level, it’s hard to get it through.
EB: What gets made that’s considered for men – it’s really just T&A stuff. It’s not stuff than any guy I know really wants to watch, you know, the stuff with jiggling boobs and all that. Something with real sort of male themes and male strength and things I want to watch in a drama….
DH: The things men want to be respected for…
EB: Yeah, sort of the things that appeal to us, the things we compete for. Macho in a different sense, the kind of things that we think makes us a man. It doesn’t really exist right now. I really don’t want it to seem that I think it’s a problem that women are in development, I don’t think it’s as problem at all, I just think it’s an interesting time that we’re in. And maybe long overdue – maybe television for a long time was made for men and it’s long overdue.
DH: I’m hearing the hero thing, how important that is to men, it’s not just about being understood in a touchy-feely way.
EB: No, not at all, it’s more about being misunderstood, but doing right anyway -- it’s Rockford and Mannix and all that kind of thing. Those kinds of icons don’t exist anymore. But I also love Glee. I watch it with my wife; I loved Desperate Housewives in the first couple of years. It’s not bad, it’s just something that I notice. And I think specifically what happened with Hawaii Five-0.
DH: What you are saying is that there’s a structural thing at the networks right now, not just CBS.
EB: Make sure that Nikki knows that I don’t have any hard feelings, that [ABC deal] was in the process months before Hawaii Five-0.
"Development staffs are all female"?
I guess that explains why modern network television has become such a gay and female ghetto.
Posts: 532 | Registered: Feb 2009
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I've obviously missed something. Edit to add: oh, thats what that's about.
I liked the interview. I'm always curious about behind the scenes development stuff. And I enjoyed a thoughtful, male perspective about what they like in a show.
It's funny about Two and a Half Men; I'd commented to my husband that I love that they sound like brothers bickering about things without losing the sense that they do love each other. He agreed with me, but his brother was five years older than him and passed in his early twenties, so maybe there's a level of competition he never got to or doesn't remember.
As for your conclusion, Clive, I'm not sure what sense of "ghetto" you're using. Folks of particular group living together? Or run-down, crime filled inner city neighborhod?
Cause I'll agree the shows appeal to women, but I don't think they're inferior quality shows. My weeknights this past fall I spent watching Fox. House, Lie to Me, So You Think You Can Dance, Glee, and Bones. So far this spring, it's Chuck and cable stuff On Demand - Leverage, Burn Notice, Psych. If cable would put the good stuff on at 8 instead of 10, I'd watch it live, but that's a different complaint.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: I've obviously missed something. Edit to add: oh, thats what that's about.
Seriouspost: what it is about is that clive candy has already expressed his absolute contempt for both gays and women and his insinuations are dark and his statement is in petty earnest, as it was in his previous (now deleted) thread.
This will become another one of his missives against women and gays. He is an absolute and total misogynist and homophobe. He has posted incredibly unconscionable things about both of these groups in the past, and he is prepared to heap scorn on the the 'corrupting' influence of gays and women on television.
In short, clive should not be allowed to start yet another woman-bashing thread with such a bald premise. I would rather see it hijacked as was (succesfully) done in the past with the subject of cookies.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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In accordance with Papa Janitor's new harsher moderation methods - may I request we put Clive Candy on some sorta probation until we can convince he/she/it to shape up?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I have this recipe for pumpkin cookies that I absolutely love.
What I am really looking for is a good recipe for peppermint cake. They are impossible to get from a bakery, and I wonder if anyone has done anything more interesting that just add crushed peppermint to a white or chocolate cake.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Actually, they're making a new Rockford Files. And as someone who is both female and gay and enjoyed the hell out of Jim Rockford as a kid, I'm really looking forward to it.
Also, The Human Target is starting tonight. Looks like a cool action show with an all male main cast headed up by Mark Valley (who played the conservative male macho hero type lawyer on Boston Legal). I used to read The Human Target when it was a backup in Action Comics way back when, and I'm dying to see this as well.
The Somalian (that'd be Clive), if he actually is a Somalian, would naturally be a misogynist and homophobe.
That said, we make oatmeal bars using the recipe from inside the cover of Quaker Oats oatmeal. Instead of making it into cookies as such, we just pour all the batter into a 9x13 pan and cut bars out of it. Scrumptious.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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The White Whale: It was just a recipe I picked off the internet.
Katharina: would peppermint extract be maybe more effective, or is that not the sort of thing you are looking for? I believe I've had mint cake, but I think it used extract rather than leaves.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I've done that. I think...what really great bakers and chefs can is come up with contrasting flavors and textures to showcase the ingredient in question. I have a friend who is an astounding chef, and she goes beyond making, say, a yummy chocolate cake. She makes a yummy chocolate cake with textures and a flavor that makes you think you've never tasted chocolate before at its best. I'm trying to talk her into making a peppermint cake, because she has the experience to know what might set it off to perfection.
But she can't get to it until February, so I was wondering if anyone else has done this already.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I would rather see it hijacked as was (succesfully) done in the past with the subject of cookies.
Hey, you're talking about *my* strategy!
Now personally, I prefer those christmas cookies that have the frosting on them. Not the ginger ones, but the ones shaped like stars and trees and so forth. Discuss.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I like those cookies. I feel bad for liking them, but I really do. I even like those pink-frosted versions you get in the grocery story. They are always soft and yummy.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Katie, I've never had peppermint cake, but I've made these cookies with the peppermint variation, and they are AWESOME.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I made white chocolate and almond cookies recently. Very tasty, but I needed cheaper margarine (it never works out right with butter or classy margarine).
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I like those cookies. I feel bad for liking them, but I really do. I even like those pink-frosted versions you get in the grocery story. They are always soft and yummy.
The problem there is that occasionally that type of cookie is excessively dry, and brittle. You can never tell from just looking at them, and since they're usually in some kind of plastic package, you can't feel them to check for consistency. Sometimes though, they are pretty good indeed.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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It is kind of a shame that this was a Clive thread. I thought the interview was actually rather interesting. I think it missed the ultimate question though- can a show effectively appeal to both male and female audiences. Based on the author's description of what males want, I would think Supernatural might fit both men and women- lots of daddy issues, competition amongst the brothers for the guys but at heart, they love each other and so the whole complex relationship stuff women like comes in. And for the ladies, the brothers sometimes don't have shirts. Also, would the less solitary hero be more about trying to appeal to a wider audience. On a show with multiple people, I can dislike one character but still watch. But if the show just has say Rockwell, if I don't like him, I won't watch.
Is this view of what men like actually accurate? My husband loves Big Bang Theory, How I met your mother, seinfeld, etc. Basically, he wants a show he can watch, laugh at and not care if he misses the latest episode. He really liked BSG in theory, but he didn't like feeling as though he had to watch more- his life is too busy to give a commitment to the tv. We do sometimes watch Law and Order together. But based on one man, I don't think I can extrapolate to an entire gender.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I suspect there are certain men who are desperate for "Lone Wolf" figures in fiction, and these men probably do feel the lack.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The Somalian (that'd be Clive), if he actually is a Somalian, would naturally be a misogynist and homophobe.
Much like you, if you are actually Jewish, would naturally be greedy and out to control the world.
Responding to racist innapropriate steriotypes with more racist innapropriate steriotypes is the kind of thing that just makes me want to talk about cookies.
my favorite store purchased cookies are double milano's but I love baking cookies and then eating them even more!
Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007
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I rather dig lone wolf characters myself. I think these folk do too much generalizing. Men and women are individual human beings with their own individual tastes.
Also I made a great cake on Wednesday. All I need when it comes to chocolate is more chocolate and nothing else.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Oatmeal cookies just don't come out very smooth, unless you pre-process the oatmeal into powder (oat flour, basically). Most types sort of dissolve into mush; I find that harder cookies such as gingersnaps tend to retain a hint of texture, though.
(Strained cookie talk v1.)
Snickerdoodle: Please don't get mad, Milano. Just hear me out. Milano: I see. Public place - perfect for this. You think I won't make a scene. S: This is really hard. I'm sorry. M: Sorry! S: I...[sigh]. I have a lot of respect for you, and your happiness is important to me. If there was any way... M: I think perhaps you should spit it out already. S: I think I need someone chewier.
quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: I've obviously missed something. Edit to add: oh, thats what that's about.
Seriouspost: what it is about is that clive candy has already expressed his absolute contempt for both gays and women and his insinuations are dark and his statement is in petty earnest, as it was in his previous (now deleted) thread.
This will become another one of his missives against women and gays. He is an absolute and total misogynist and homophobe. He has posted incredibly unconscionable things about both of these groups in the past, and he is prepared to heap scorn on the the 'corrupting' influence of gays and women on television.
In short, clive should not be allowed to start yet another woman-bashing thread with such a bald premise. I would rather see it hijacked as was (succesfully) done in the past with the subject of cookies.
I'm glad you told me this. I missed the thread in question, and I've held out a glimmer of hope for Clive. I forget the thread, but he was talking to Dogbreath and sounded like he was having an actual discussion. Then he started talking to Orincoro and went straight to the crazy. I thought it was a conditional thing. Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: I made a thread about an interesting issue and all I get is strained talk about cookies.
You made an ignorant statement on an overly broad topic yet again and insulted people, and now want to cry about it?
LOL
Notice I am not derailing your threads with fluff, but even I think we'd be better off without you, Clive.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lisa, you can make broad statements about a class of people based on their culture and have it be based on common knowledge, yet STILL have it be offensive to someone who is of that nationality who isn't part of that viewpoint.
If you want to judge him based on his ancestry or nationality, then he should be free to do the same to you.
IMO, you would be both wrong.
There is plenty of actual stuff he has said/done here to comment on. I don't see the need to drag race or nationality into it. But YMMV, of course.
I took his comment to mean that there is as much truth to his as yours....which would be not much when referring to individuals. Pretty much the definition of the word individual proves that.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Also, would the less solitary hero be more about trying to appeal to a wider audience. On a show with multiple people, I can dislike one character but still watch. But if the show just has say Rockwell, if I don't like him, I won't watch.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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