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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » X-Men: First Class ^spoilers^ (Page 2)

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Author Topic: X-Men: First Class ^spoilers^
BlackBlade
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Humans do use the children in Ender's Game, the whole flipping Shadow saga is about that. And yes, there are humans persecuting wizards in HP, several wizards are ostracized by muggle family members when their powers start to exhibit themselves. The is also persecution within the wizarding community when somebody born to a good family turns out to not be a wizard/witch.

They are very common themes in literature. Try reading up on the Greek Gods overthrowing and subjecting the Titans.

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Just read Card's review noting that the film was more concerned with the Holocaust which had occurred decades earlier than its setting and was totally oblivious to how bad black Americans had it at the time.

I only note that the film was written by five people, most of who appear to be Jews, and that the premise of the X-men is really an allegory for Judaic mythology, namely, that of a special people dealing with the normals who haven't been similarly been blessed/chosen. The X-men are the Chosen people who must deal with hateful Goyim whom God has passed over. Magneto and Xavier both represent competing visions of Jewish supremacy. Xavier says we are better but should condescend to the humans and Magneto says we are better and should reign over them as nature has dictated. The struggles of black Americans has no place in this intra-community argument.

I don't know about that. The X-Men story has been around for like sixty years, and before that you had Superman and all kinds of other superhuman stories about being special and different.

What's more, the Magneto/WW2 story was in the first film (if you recall) and also in the comics. He's one of the two main characters and he basically drives the film, so of course they are going to focus on his traumatic childhood.

Furthermore, what you are suggesting is a bit racist. Saying that the Jews are oblivious to the blacks of the time is presumptuous when all they were trying to do was make a fun, action-packed movie (also, they weren't all Jewish, anyway). The writers focused on the WW2 stuff because 1) Magneto's rage was born there, and he's a HUGE character in the franchise, and 2) the villain came out of that era (Shaw). They might have been able to incorporate the Black struggle of the time, but do you really think there was enough time for all that?

Now, I do think it was a little silly to kill off the only black character in the film (Angel doesn't count. I mean, she was mixed, so she's just as much white as she is black, honestly). Maybe the sequels will bring in a new black mutant, since the other films had Storm, but we'll see.

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Rakeesh
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Oh, goodness! Is it time for Sa'eed to pivot back to thinly veiled anti-Semitism? Looks like it!

The X-Men could be construed as an allegory for Judaic history and myth...if you go looking for it. As Orincoro said, basically. This is one of those weak-minded arguments that's so vague and ambiguous, Sa'eed, that nothing that happens, nothing that's presented, will actually contradict the core of your premise.

Here's one reason why your ideas as expressed are stupid: there are basically three people in the story who are 'concerned' with the Holocaust: Eric himself, for obvious reasons; Shaw in the story, because he was involved in the Holocaust; and Charles loosely, insofar as he'd inhabited Eric's mind. It was 'concerned' with the Holocaust in about the same way that it was 'concerned' with liberal university upbringing.

The fact that blacks were underrepresented, well it might be a sign of a conspiratorial allegorical telling of Jewish history. Or it might be the fact that, well, blacks (and all minorities) are underrepresented in just about all big blockbuster style movies. On the one hand we've got a hugely common, substantiated explanation...and on the other we've got a vague, shadowy sneaky plot by some Jews to give a nod to their history.

Can we just fast forward to the part where you ramp up the thinly-veiled anti-Semitism, Sa'eed, to the point where it's not quite so thinly veiled and you have to back off for awhile?

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AchillesHeel
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I really liked Darwin, the actor fleshed out the character so quickly that I wish they hadnt removed him from use in future films. Im trying to think of how many black mutants already exist, who could also be used in this time-line without re-writing everything about the character, and I cant think of any besides Storm.

I also think that it would nice to include an openly gay mutant in the next installment, The X-Men have long been a reflection on gay rights and being gay in American culture.

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Orincoro
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No, the theme is obvious to me. The "jewishness" of the theme is just your own anti-semitism.
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Sa'eed
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You don't need to go looking for it. It's there in your face, with all the Holocaust elements in the story and the fact that the people behind these films (and the comics) happen to be of the Hebraic persuasion. I merely argue that the film doesn't have time to address the civil rights issue because it's implicitly chronicling Jewish folklore. I don't believe a crime has been committed by not including more black characters but I wish the film was more forthright about its allegorical intentions.
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Bella Bee
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It was bothersome - that scene when they highlighted the race issue with the 'slavery' close-up on Darwin, Angel turning, and then Darwin appearing to turn and then being killed off.

If I were charitable, I'd suggest that they made Darwin a very likable character and that he was meant to have died a big darn hero, but honestly it was awkwardly done, and left the cast weirdly pale in their basic forms. Although, when some of the characters, when they're not hiding their true nature are transparent, red and demonic, or blue and/or furry, perhaps we're overlooking something when it comes to color.

I wonder if, had they put in a scene where, for example, some of the government agents had behaved 'of the era' with Darwin, it would have made his death more unbearably sad and enraging.

Honestly, though, there is hardly ever a balanced representation in movies or TV of the real racial mix of America.

Equally, no-one was fat or ugly or out and gay, or many other things that people might discriminate against (although there was a ginger male hero, and a disability so yay for that I suppose) so I think looking to movies for a representation of society as a whole is never going to work.

As for the Jewish thing - don't be so ridiculous. Being Jewish was then and still is in much of the world, very difficult, so it's a bit silly to complain that one kind of discrimination is ignored but to be upset that another is highlighted, unless you think that one kind of discrimination is justified and another is not.

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Sa'eed
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I'm not upset that it was highlighted.
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Jeff C.
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Maybe they'll give us Bishop in the next film, even though he's from the future. Regardless, he's one of the best mutants in the history of the franchise, so I'd love to see him in a film.

I'm predicting that they'll add in a new black character at some point in the films (just like they did in X-Men Evolutions, that tv show a few years back, where they created a black character named Spike), realizing their all white cast and the recent turbulance over this debacle in the African-American community (yes, there are a few articles about it already surfacing).

I don't really think it's a big deal, though. No one complains that the Avengers don't have any black characters. Though maybe that will change when the film gets released (unless you count Nick Fury, but he wasn't always black...and he has zero superpowers)?


Moving on, I'd like to see the following X-Men at some point:

-Forge
-Bishop
-Cable
-Psylocke (she was technically in X3, but that doesn't count since they completely changed her character, alliance, and powers)
-Gambit (he deserves better than that Wolverine movie)
-X-23
-Quicksilver

I'd also like to see Magneto create Asteroid M or some equivilant to that. For those who don't know Asteroid M is basically a Mutant nation entirely its own. Pretty awesome story if they could do it right.

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AchillesHeel
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quote:
(unless you count Nick Fury, but he wasn't always black...and he has zero superpowers)?

He may not have powers but he still orders everyone else around and isnt afraid of Wolverine, that makes him cooler than Stark and the rest in my book.

Also, I considered the validity of using Spike but not too hard seeing as his main line to the X-Men was his blood relation to Storm. If they really wanted to they could just use the basic persona and power, they already ruined Havoc so why not.

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Jeff C.
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Yeah, and it seems like they don't care about continuity anyway. I mean, Havoc is Cyclops's younger brother, but in this he's at least 15 years older, more or less. I'm sure they wouldn't mind using Spike or even just making up a character just for the movies.

Ironically, if they had just rebooted the whole franchise they wouldn't have the same problems they're facing to begin with. With a new "Refreshed" world to visit, every mutant would be open for use, but instead they're limited to second and third tier X-Men because they already used all the people everyone know. Of course, there's still a few untapped avenues, but I really don't know of too many popular characters besides what I already mentioned or that were already in the other films. Ah well.

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Blayne Bradley
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Deadpool is where its at.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
Just read Card's review noting that the film was more concerned with the Holocaust which had occurred decades earlier than its setting and was totally oblivious to how bad black Americans had it at the time.

I only note that the film was written by five people, most of who appear to be Jews, and that the premise of the X-men is really an allegory for Judaic mythology, namely, that of a special people dealing with the normals who haven't been similarly been blessed/chosen. The X-men are the Chosen people who must deal with hateful Goyim whom God has passed over. Magneto and Xavier both represent competing visions of Jewish supremacy. Xavier says we are better but should condescend to the humans and Magneto says we are better and should reign over them as nature has dictated. The struggles of black Americans has no place in this intra-community argument.

I note that you're a pig and an anti-semite. No offense.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Sa'eed:
You don't need to go looking for it. It's there in your face, with all the Holocaust elements in the story and the fact that the people behind these films (and the comics) happen to be of the Hebraic persuasion.

"Hebraic persuasion"? Jewish. Yes, and since Jews also created Superman, Batman, The Hulk, The Fantastic Four, Spiderman (half of Spiderman, anyway), and a slew of others, presumably all of those are Jewish allegories as well.

You are such a dope, Ib.

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Lisa
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If anything, the X-Men are a gay allegory. The whole "everyone is against mutants" thing in the Marvel Universe didn't start until around the time of Dazzler. When all sorts of discrimination was making the news. The movies have repeatedly used gay/anti-gay tropes like "Have you tried not being a mutant?"
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neo-dragon
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The fact that Bryan Singer and Ian McKellen are both gay probably has something to do with that.

I'd like to think that mutants and the x-men can represent any group that has been discriminated against or persecuted, or even any individual who feels like they personally don't fit in.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The fact that Bryan Singer and Ian McKellen are both gay probably has something to do with that.
It's probably the reverse, if anything.

As has been noted, the X-Men started as a fairly obvious Jewish allegory, including nods to a "Master Race," and very quickly segued into a racial allegory by the early '70s. By the early '90s, the racial allegory had largely become homosexual allegory. This is not surprising, since the underlying motif -- an oppressed class of people who are hated for their differences -- has stayed the same, while the particular real-world "class" that would spring to mind when society imagines such a group has gone through several changes, and will no doubt continue to do so.

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Blayne Bradley
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"Hebranic persuasion" is the most roflcopter quote of this thread.

Its like... "I don't want to sound like I'm racist, even I am, so to sorta give that impression and yet have the grey area of not technically being racist..."

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