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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Song of Ice and Fire question (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Song of Ice and Fire question
Stone_Wolf_
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Don't forget Kal Drogos...there seems to be more then one style of magic around.
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Carrie
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Drogo's resurrection isn't all that different - Dany's baby had to die so Drogo could come back, much as Beric died for Catelyn to come back.

Unless I'm missing something major?

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scifibum
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Who died when Beric came back?

Lyrhawn, Thoros was the gaoler who talked to Brienne just before the hanging, right? So as of the end of the last book, he's alive and part of the outlaw band with Lady Stoneheart.

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Rakeesh
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Drogo may not be the best example, since I think there's a great (fantastic, really) chance that his healing was deliberately sabotaged towards a specific end. I mean, towards the end she made it sound like it was just a case of, "Telling you part of the truth and letting you deceive yourself," but even prior to that the signs were clear when she (if I remmember correctly) jammed his wound full of mud, leaves, etc., to 'treat' it.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Carrie:
Drogo's resurrection isn't all that different - Dany's baby had to die so Drogo could come back, much as Beric died for Catelyn to come back.

Unless I'm missing something major?

I thought that was different. I thought Beric was basically transferring his own resurrection to Catelyn. And for that matter, Drogo's resurrection wasn't really a resurrection. First, he never actually died. He was just sick. And when he came back, he wasn't really back, he was a shadow of his former self. Considering the magic being used came from Asshai, rather than Myr, that's not really a surprise.
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Frisco
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As a kid, I found that packing wounds with mud is the safest way to keep adults from seeing the blood and making you stop playing and come inside.

Also, I bet I became immune to 99% of all the bacteria in the universe from ages 6-11. [Razz]

Reading that chapter and thinking back to all the pus-filled scabs on my knees, I did begin to wonder exactly how hard she was trying to save his life.

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Xavier
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quote:
but even prior to that the signs were clear when she (if I remmember correctly) jammed his wound full of mud, leaves, etc., to 'treat' it.
I think you are mistaken. IIRC, the maegi treated the wound with a dry poultice. It itched terribly, however, so he replaced it with a wet mud based one from a Dothraki healer that soothed him.
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Kwea
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yep
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Foust
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
quote:
One, Martin plays for keeps; no one just slips out of an impossible situation. Two, it would make for terrible story telling. Lady Stark has already been resurrected...
Um...
Yes... hence it would be dumb for it to happen twice. This is exactly my point.

I disagree. It would be bad storytelling to arbitrarily make resurrection a one-time-only thing - why can't it happen again? He uses it again or he doesn't, as he pleases, but he should have a better reason than "well if I do it again, that would be dumb." He presumably has some idea in his head about how this magic works, and why/whether it would work in other circumstances, and whether any other instances might be likely in the threads of the story.
My fault for using the word resurrection. I mean having a character disappear, almost certainly dead, only to re-appear later in the narrative.

It's a narrative trick to jerk the readers around, rather than a plot point. Doric's and Drogo's resurrections were plot points, and are unrelated to what I am talking about. Lady Stark's was a plot point as well, of course, but it was also a narrative trick. You can only do that once.

I will cry foul if Syrio comes back, or if Ned Stark turns out to be alive (say, a faceless man took his place at the execution).

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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
... or if Ned Stark turns out to be alive (say, a faceless man took his place at the execution).

I would probably ragequit reading the series if that happened. Syrio being alive? Whatever, he's a minor player and it would be a fun cameo. Ned? No. Just... no.

I should probably brush up on my minor characters (and, indeed, resurrections!) before ADWD. Rumor has it that this knowledge will come in handy.

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Stone_Wolf_
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The worst part of my decision not to read Dance will be that I have to stop reading all the posts about the series...people just do not use **SPOILERS** like they should...
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Lyrhawn
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I think we knew from the first page that this wasn't going to be a spoiler-free thread. When it does come out (oh so soon!) we could have a pure spoiler thread, and a non-Dance thread, but, most people will probably still be in the Dance thread. Maybe you should just give in and read it [Smile]

ETA: Only nine days left!!

[ July 03, 2011, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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Maybe I should...but I can just avoid talking about the series until the last book is out. I have other books on my dance card and I don't actually feel like rereading the other books atm anyway. As good as they are, they are a touch depressing.
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Lyrhawn
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You're going to just hold off for another five years, AND avoid being spoiled by someone, especially with the TV show trucking ahead so EVERYONE knows what happens?

Hmmm.

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Stone_Wolf_
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That's the plan. When the last one comes out, I'll buy Dance and Winds, and read them all, and be done with it.

If he dies first, or decides there needs to be 12 more or whatever, then I won't have lost a thing.

I'll be all ready to talk about the series and everyone else will be talking too (when the last one comes out) so, yea, that's the plan.

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Lyrhawn
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Still seems a little silly though. If you're already read four of them, and you WANT to know how it ends, then aren't you already committed? And aren't there already cliffhangers?

Somehow I doubt it'll go past two more, but it might, I don't know. Regardless, that line of argument makes more sense for a person who hasn't read any of them, rather than someone who is already in the middle of it but fears being gipped. What are you losing if you read one more and then something happens and you don't get the rest? Seems to me you at least get one more book's worth of answers out of it. It's your choice, but I find that line of reasoning somewhat perplexing.

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Stone_Wolf_
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If he never finishes the series, I won't read Dance...and if Winds comes out, but isn't the last one, I'll wait til the last one is done done done, and if that last one is never made, I won't read Dance or Winds.

I have no interest in a never ending tragedy with zero closure. It upsets me equally how much the characters have suffered as the wait between books. It might be worth it in the end, and I'll give it a shot, if there is an end, but with out that end, no thank you!

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kmbboots
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I find it difficult to put down books or series of books but, once they are down, it is much easier to leave them down. The long delay forced me to "put down" ASoFaI. I am not in any hurry to pick them up again. I have moved on. I probably will take them up again eventually, but I can wait.
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Lyrhawn
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Alright, that makes more sense.

Stone, Winds won't be the last one, or at least, it isn't planned to be. Dream of Spring is the last planned novel. I think not tying up the loose ends from Storm would bother me more than reading another 1100 pages of tragedy, mostly because things are already so bad, I'm partially desensitized to it, and in part because it's almost reached the point where things can only stay the same or get better.

The list of characters that I REALLY don't want to die has whittled down to being counted on one hand. If they die, I won't keep reading anyway, so either way I get some sort of closure.

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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
The list of characters that I REALLY don't want to die has whittled down to being counted on one hand. If they die, I won't keep reading anyway, so either way I get some sort of closure.

Heh. Mine's down to one: Rickon. Everyone else can go hang, and sometimes literally. And if other people do manage to stay alive to the end of the series, well, awesome. [Smile]
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Lyrhawn
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lol, really, RICKON? You've set the bar pretty low. [Smile]

I'm pretty much down to Tyrion and Jamie, with Jon on the cusp.

I have mixed feelings though. I'd like to see Jamie dead for what he's done, though, his character is absolutely fascinating right now, and if he continues on his journey from Storm and Feast (though Feast was a downer), then maybe I'd be okay with him surviving. His metamorphosis into an anti-hero is one of the coolest parts of the entire series, and I'm still holding onto that.

I'm interested in what happens with Bran and Cold Hands, but if Bran were to die, I wouldn't shed a tear.

Jon got a little boring after awhile. His time as Lord Commander could be interesting to watch, but, I'm also prepared for it to be a snoozefest, so, he's on the cusp.

I guess if you want to stretch it, I'm interested in Arya and Daenerys, but Arya was pretty boring in Feast. I enjoy the parallels between her and Sansa, but I'm not invested in either character enough to root for survival. Likewise, I'm interested in what happens to Dany, especially since so many different characters are supposed to intersect in Mereen, but if she died and that half of the world was cut off, it wouldn't do much to me, other than to seem laughably silly to invest that much time in a plot line that lifts right out of the story. He either connects her to what's happening on Westeros, or he'll lose a lot of credibility as a storyteller in my eyes.

I'm more rooting for plot lines than I am for characters at this point. Sort of changes my level of emotional involvement from where it was two books ago.

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Geraine
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I'm in the same boat Lyrhawn. I think the only character that I would be extremely upset if they died is Arya.

I'm fine with Dany dying, but only after she has had her shot at trying to take over the 7 Kingdoms. I like Jon a lot, but I have a horrible feeling in my gut that the Dany/Jon shippers are right in that they will eventually hook up.

Bran.... Well Bran is strange. He's been looking for this three eyed crow but we don't really know the purpose. Bran may die eventually but I think GRRM has something special in store for him first. If he is going to become a great warg (they hinted at this) that can control dragons, he may be the only one that can stop Dany when she comes.

Still though.... I REALLY don't know how GRRM is going to resolve all of these storylines. There is probably going to be a war when Dany lands in the seven kingdoms, but there is also all of that business with the Others, Stannis, the Greyjoys, Dorn, Littlefinger, and Stoneheart. He has two books after ADWD, and unless he is going to take the easy way out of some of these, I really don't know how he is going to finish it.

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scifibum
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Arya's got some dark deeds ahead of her, I think. And probably a reunion with Nymeria. She's safe for a while. I'd bet up to $5 on it. [Wink]

I wonder if GRRM actually intends to provide some kind of satisfactory end to all the extant plotlines (not to mention any he's going to introduce going forward). If so, I agree that it would be quite a feat to do so in 3 remaining novels. To me it's starting to feel a bit like the byzantine decline of the Wheel of Time series. Although only a bit. It's not tedious for me yet, whereas with WoT I slogged through two whole novels AFTER I completely stopped enjoying them (and I haven't read the last three or so). I still have hope for ASoIaF.

Lyrhawn:
"...in part because it's almost reached the point where things can only stay the same or get better."

I worry that GRRM might view this as a challenge. I think things will get much worse. Winter is coming.

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Wingracer
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Yeah, it HAS to get worse. Every book so far has made a big deal about just how bad the coming winter will be. If all we get is more of the same with a little snow thrown in, I think that I would feel cheated.
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Stone_Wolf_
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One of the other reasons I lost enthusiasm for this series is exactly what scfibum is describing. GRRM keeps adding new characters, and levels of complications which make it hard to imagine he will be able to fully conclude all issues (well).
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Belle
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Yeah, I lost all my enthusiasm and will read the Dance spoiler threads so I can find out what happens without investing any more money or extended amounts of time into GRRM's sad and twisted world.

I feel a bit cheated...I mean, I was very angry when the story I thought I was promised - the Stark family struggling against Winter and the rest of the kingdom - didn't materialize. I got over that, and got invested in Dany and Jon and even Jaime to a degree, plus wondering when Arya would reunite with Nymeria (I firmly believe she's alive), and when Jon's parentage would be revealed.

But as others have already said, so many plot lines, so many new characters...and it has gotten so convoluted and so many people have died or had horrible things happen to them it almost feels like a psychological experiment at this point. As if GRRM is sitting around saying "I wonder what I have to do to get people to stop reading...." He already found my threshold. I'm out.

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
...it almost feels like a psychological experiment at this point. As if GRRM is sitting around saying "I wonder what I have to do to get people to stop reading...."
I have said this before, but as a bet with another writer instead of a social experiment.
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Geraine
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There has been this huge looming Others thing plot going on (It was in the prologue of the first book!) and with the remaining books it just seems like he will not be able to give it justice. I want the others to breach the wall and start marching on King's Landing!

Then again maybe that is exactly what happens and Dany comes and saves the day with her Dragons and everyone is so thankful they crown her Queen and they live happiky ever after. It would be an easy way for GRRM to tie everything up.

You saw it here first folks.

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Xavier
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quote:
Then again maybe that is exactly what happens and Dany comes and saves the day with her Dragons and everyone is so thankful they crown her Queen and they live happiky ever after. It would be an easy way for GRRM to tie everything up.
I doubt it will happen exactly like this, but some form of it has been my prediction for years. He's been setting up Jon + Dany versus the Others since book 1, IMO.

Added: I suspect Jon and Dany will be married and rule as King and Queen, though since Dany is barren I am betting there will be a second wife that bears the children. I have no likely guesses as to the identity of the third dragon head.

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MrSquicky
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quote:
I have no likely guesses as to the identity of the third dragon head.
My guess is Arya.
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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:


You saw it here first folks.

Not really. [Evil]
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Jake
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
I have no likely guesses as to the identity of the third dragon head.
My guess is Arya.
Nah--it's either Moon Boy or Butterbumps.
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Juxtapose
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I don't find it at all likely that Jon and Dany will be married. I can't imagine what would make him leave the Watch at this point.
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Jake
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The end of the Watch.

[Edit - Unlike my previous post, this one is serious. I think that The Wall will fall, the Others will be defeated, and the Watch will be disbanded. With that done, Jon will no longer be bound by his vow.]

[ July 05, 2011, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Jake ]

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kmbboots
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I think that is the only way it can end without having the orbit of earth shifted by thousands of books being flung against walls.
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Jake
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:: laugh ::
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Juxtapose
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That would be possible. Something about it strikes me as unlikely though. I can see the Others being thrown back. But permanently defeated? Remember, this is not the first Long Night the world has seen.
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scifibum
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It seems possible that Bran's remaining role is to discover why the Others exist and how to permanently destroy them forever and ever. And it seems certain the Wall is coming down, and that no one knows how to rebuild it, so the Watch could also end in pure helplessness.
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scifibum
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Also I totally think Jaime and Brienne are getting hitched.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Jake:
The end of the Watch.

[Edit - Unlike my previous post, this one is serious. I think that The Wall will fall, the Others will be defeated, and the Watch will be disbanded. With that done, Jon will no longer be bound by his vow.]

I think this is perhaps the MOST plausible line. It seems like something is supposed to be different with THIS winter. Why else would even the wildings be fleeing Beyond the Wall? I think the wall will fall, the Others will cross, and there will have to be a pretty big battle in the north. This series really needs a major reckoning. Too many scores still to settle. I've gotten to the place where I expect many issues will be resolved without justice, and I'm okay with that, but there are still so many shoes left to drop.

I don't know how I feel about Jon and Dany as King and Queen. If we assume the biggest rumor about his father is true, then it'd be a little icky, though, not un-Targaryen. I think it's fascinating that Martin has the series to a point where Dany is the savior, where we're actively rooting for her to conquer Westeros. At this point, she's the only power player left without Westerosi blood on her hands, who might actually serve as the consensus choice.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
...so many people have died or had horrible things happen to them it almost feels like a psychological experiment at this point. As if GRRM is sitting around saying "I wonder what I have to do to get people to stop reading...." He already found my threshold. I'm out.

It's been unpleasant at times to find out that a favorite character is dead, or maimed, or has something else horrible happen. And all the starvation and suffering throughout is, really, just terrible to read about. What Tywin had his "dogs" do, particularly, makes me ill.

Yet...in a way I appreciate that GRRM is trying to show what it would be like if feudal society gets into large scale war. It WOULD be horrible. And while I find it sort of unpleasant to think about, I think maybe there's some value in thinking about how horrible war can be. But more than that, I still think it's a darn good story. (Even A Feast for Crows. I enjoyed it well enough.)

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Geraine
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Just remember that Jon broke his vows once for the "greater good" and though he has sworn not to do it again, he may be compelled to do so.

For example, lets say Jon found out he was Rhaegar's son. The Others get so powerful that they became almost unstoppable. Dany will only help if Jon marries her or ******* (fill in some stupid reason GRRM comes up with in his books)

As long as Arya makes it through the books I'm happy. After she uses her supreme ninja assassin powers to kill Cersei of course...

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Sean Monahan
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Jaime is going to kill Cersei.
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scifibum
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I'm making no bets on that particular murder; Cersei is trying hard to make everyone want her dead.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Cersei is the one who survives.
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Belle
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Sean, that is the one thing I'm hoping will happen.

Don't get me wrong the story was compelling. Still is, in a way. That's why I said I will read spoiler threads and get plot summaries from the internet because part of me does still want to know what happens. But I do not have the desire to wade through the books to find it.

I don't read books to find out what the horrors of war would be like in a feudal society. When I'm not reading for work, I like to use books as escapism - it's one reason I love sci fi and fantasy - it's a different world and it doesn't feel anything like mine. Those parts of ASOIAF I love. I love the dragons, the Others, the Wall, etc. I don't want to see the realistic horrors of base human nature. I'm a teacher in an urban high school. I see enough of the sad effects of humans being terrible to each other. I don't want to experience it when I read.

That does not mean that I judge anyone who does enjoy the series. To each his own, that's why there are so many different types of stories to read, so we can find what we like. I see things I like in ASOIAF, but the balance is too heavily skewed toward things I don't like for me to stay with it. [Smile] So I'll keep reading, and following your threads because I still have some connection to parts of the story. I hope you guys don't mind.

And who knows, I might get sucked in and wind up downloading Dance on my Nook. If y'all tell me there's lots of good Dany and Arya and Jon chapters I may have to. [Smile]

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Lyrhawn
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Spoilers, if it matters:

I think Cersei will be torn apart by a mob. She's unleashed too many forces that are hostile to her. Characters who are stupid or naive die with regularity in this series. It took me awhile to accept that most of the Starks who died did so because they were blinded by honor at the expense of good sense.

Jamie pities her more than hates her, I think, though Tyrion's words that keep echoing in his head, and Cersei's constant goading certainly could push him in that direction. But the simple fact of the matter is that with Joffrey dead, with Tywin dead, with Tyrion gone, with Jamie no longer her champion, and with an army of religious zealots on the march, she simply has no one left to protect her. I gave her way too much credit for being smart after she turned the tables on Ned. She only got ahead of him because of Sansa. Otherwise, she's pretty much miscalculated or been outsmarted by everyone around her for several books now, and she's spiraling down more and more.

Personally, I'd like to see zombie-Catelyn kill her, but I don't know how that's work. There's a long, long line.

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umberhulk
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I'll keep reading no matter who dies.

But Arya, Mance, and Tyrion, rock on baby, rock on.

(I havent read Feast)

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Carrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
And who knows, I might get sucked in and wind up downloading Dance on my Nook. If y'all tell me there's lots of good Dany and Arya and Jon chapters I may have to. [Smile]

Considering there weren't any Dany or Jon chapters in AFFC, and only a couple Arya ones, rest assured that there will be plenty. And they will be good.*

As for the Rickon bit - well, I figure if I keep my expectations low and someone else manages to survive, I'll be that much happier with the conclusion of the series. [Smile] My dream-world ending, though, is for Jon not to marry Dany. Ugh. The incest doesn't bother me (um, in terms of the series, that is...), but rather what a lack of maturation it would show in Jon's character. Or maybe a reversal. I thought he'd managed to grow up after the whole Wildling adventure, and sworn himself to the Black for good; if this changes so he can be King, I'll be terribly disappointed.

And then I'll chuck the book across the room.


*I say these things as someone who's read the spoilers from several of the German people who already have ADWD and spoken with friends about plot points in the book. I've not read it myself, but even just the tantalizing bits I've gotten have sounded epic and have only added to my desperation to read this frigging book.

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Lyrhawn
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Egads, you read spoilers? I couldn't possibly. Just need to stay spoiler free for another couple of days.
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