Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » A Hypothetical: What If God Proved Her Own Existence

   
Author Topic: A Hypothetical: What If God Proved Her Own Existence
Ace of Spades
Member
Member # 2256

 - posted      Profile for Ace of Spades           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's say God turns out to be female. Would you still have to obey her? Is eternal salvation worth it if you have to spend eternity being bossed around by a woman?
Posts: 431 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes.
Posts: 14202 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LargeTuna
Member
Member # 10512

 - posted      Profile for LargeTuna   Email LargeTuna         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*cue overplay married man sitcom joke*

"Sure, add one more woman, It shouldn't be that different!"

Posts: 855 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why would this change anything?
Posts: 3670 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think I'd be able to cope with discovering that the creator of the universe actually had the ability to produce tiny little people in her quasi-metaphorical tummy. I prefer that my creators create people the old-fashioned way: out of nothing or, barring that, dust. Barring that, pieces of other people will do in a pinch.
Posts: 36934 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tinros
Member
Member # 8328

 - posted      Profile for Tinros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What would you do if god turned out to be plural? How would you go about choosing a god to follow? Or would you be willing to follow all of them?
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Strider
Member
Member # 1807

 - posted      Profile for Strider   Email Strider         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A Hypothetical: What if god disproved his or her own existence?
Posts: 8701 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_   Email Stone_Wolf_         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's say God turns out to be a male, but prefers other male deities, you know. sexually?
Posts: 5081 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CRkpBGQzU
Posts: 3994 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath   Email Dogbreath         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAjZojWpNqo
Posts: 1122 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Graeme
Member
Member # 12543

 - posted      Profile for Graeme           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Crom tells me he grows angry at all this hypothowhatsing. There's only one worthy question: the riddle of steel.
Posts: 47 | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath   Email Dogbreath         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(More seriously, in the OT, the second mention of God's presence, literally translated as "the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters", is the word used to describe a mother hen hovering over her chicks. And then there's the line "The lord God created Man in his image, male and female he created them" Likewise, any OT mention of God's spirit (as opposed to his masculine person) is in the feminine, the "Shekinah Glory." This is carried over into the NT and Christian theology, with the Holy Spirit, the Promised Comforter, traditionally being thought of as God's feminine, mothering side. This would imply that God, while (hopefully) lacking a physical penis or ovaries, possesses both distinct masculine and feminine features and personalities)
Posts: 1122 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
odouls268
Member
Member # 2145

 - posted      Profile for odouls268   Email odouls268         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"omnipotent
[om-nip-uh-tuhnt]
om·nip·o·tent
   [om-nip-uh-tuhnt]
adjective
1.almighty or infinite in power"

So, for better or worse, richer or poorer, manly or ladylike, God is a pretty tough hombre/mujer. (S)he can pretty much do/have/BE whatever he/she feels like him/her wants to do, without even an inkling of possibility of resistance or reprisal from me. I hear that omnipotence is a darn hard obstacle to overcome in a brawl/war/heated argument/minor disagreement over the proper placement of tp on the roll. So, dude or chick, God can pretty much always count on my support, whether he/she be wearing a tunic or gown when I get to the pearly gates.

All I ask when I get there is that there be four things: Forgiveness, Answers, My family, and sandwiches.

Posts: 2525 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Foust
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for Foust   Email Foust         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The idea of a disembodied yet gendered being is ridiculous. Without the appearance and anatomy of bodies - genitals, varying ratios of hormones, cultural marks such as long hair, or the ability to inseminate and give birth, what the hell is gender supposed to be?

Well, the standard answer is "cultural construct." Except a hypothetically existing god is not a cultural construct.

God would neither have "gender" as a culturally constructed identity or "sex" as a particular body.

So what gives? Oh, right, any given culture's idea of god is always a reflection of the traits they consider best within themselves. Back in the day, the best traits were coded male so god was overwhelmingly male (with hints of what passes as feminine, as dogbreath points out). Nowadays, we valorize the breakdown of specific gender identities, so suddenly god is much more fluid, gender wise.

Posts: 1482 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In Mormonism, God is not "disembodied."

[Smile]

Posts: 14497 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zotto!
Member
Member # 4689

 - posted      Profile for Zotto!   Email Zotto!         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We also believe in a Mother deified in Heaven along with the Father, so this question isn't particularly hypothetical for us. *grin*

Take our hymn "Invocation, or the Eternal Father and Mother" by Eliza R. Snow, fer instance.

I had learned to call thee Father,
Through thy Spirit from on high;
But until the key of knowledge
Was restored, I knew not why.
In the heavens are parents single?
No; the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason, truth eternal
Tells me I've a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high?
Then, at length, when I've completed
All you sent me forth to do,
With your mutual approbation
Let me come and dwell with you.

Posts: 1585 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Foust
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for Foust   Email Foust         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is the LDS God a homo sapien sapien? Or rather, a supernaturally altered homo sapien sapien?

Actually, I'm curious. Does LDS God's body have all the same characteristics ours do? Does he excrete? Have nocturnal emissions? Halitosis?

Posts: 1482 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
Is the LDS God a homo sapien sapien? Or rather, a supernaturally altered homo sapien sapien?

Actually, I'm curious. Does LDS God's body have all the same characteristics ours do? Does he excrete? Have nocturnal emissions? Halitosis?

God's body does not share all the exact same characteristics. It's more useful to think of human beings as a sort of primitive version of what God is. Those who have seen him indicate he has a body more or less like us on the outside. Whether that means internally we are the same is not known. Whether Gods need to eat or sleep, we don't know. We know God rested after creating the earth, and that Jesus ate fish post resurrection. That doesn't really prove that God must do those things. He may have rested after creating the earth so as to establish a pattern for us of resting. Jesus might have eaten the fish purely to convince the apostles he had a physical body, and that he wasn't a ghost.

So far God has only seen fit to let us know that we are created in his image, but we are not identical. Sorta like Michelangelo's David is an uncanny image of a man, but the statue is not a man.

Posts: 14202 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zotto!
Member
Member # 4689

 - posted      Profile for Zotto!   Email Zotto!         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Edit: To be clear, this was a reply to Foust. [Smile]

We have no idea, since we have no records of Him doing those things in front of us. *grin* Wouldn't bother me if He was like us in those ways; what matters is whether or not He is Good, not whether or not He gets morning breath. Presumably there is a biology of some sort going on - one of our sacred books, the Doctrine and Covenants, says that:

130:1 "When the Savior shall appear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy."

So Gods are "human", but in bodies capable of being "eternal". Gives me hope for medicine and other scientific advancements, lemme tellya.

(The point is that in the LDS understanding, God is not species-unique - the ontological gap between God and humans that Post-Augustinian Neoplatonic Christianity posits is much diminished, and male and female humans are equally capable of physically-embodied divinity themselves, if they choose to make themselves as unselfishly Good as the others who have gone before.)

[ November 16, 2011, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]

Posts: 1585 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Foust
Member
Member # 3043

 - posted      Profile for Foust   Email Foust         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Zotto, when you say "eternal," do you mean that God and other beings like him will exist after the end of our universe, either through heat death or a big crunch?
Posts: 1482 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zotto!
Member
Member # 4689

 - posted      Profile for Zotto!   Email Zotto!         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Assuming that our projections are accurate and those events will become more than theoretical, then yes. How in the world this will be possible given the current understanding of physics, is, of course, a rather interesting question! *laugh*

Edit: I don't mean for this to come off as proselytization, which is against board rules. But for skeptical anthropological interest, if nothing else, I'll note some cool bits about LDS cosmology:

In our Book of Abraham, pre-mortal human "Intelligence" is an uncreated and indestructible spark - kinda like Card's aiuas - which, because it is uncreated, is the source of our moral culpability and agency. God the Father dwells "in the midst" of these uncreated beings, and is the wisest of them. He ratifies a Plan offered for His adopted family: rather than creation ex nihilo, the Gods descend to organize pre-existing matter. Like a garden, the "creation" is seen as an intentional planting.

"We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell." (3:24) "And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth." (4:1) "And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit." (4:11) "And the Gods said: Behold, we will give them every herb bearing seed that shall come upon the face of all the earth, and every tree which shall have fruit upon it." (4:29)

So it's a colonization effort; a process of organization, preparation, and seeding. With this in mind, I'd speculate that, heck, maybe we'll find somewhere that won't get sucked into a supermassive blackhole. Or whatever. Something sci-fi like that, anyway. [Smile]

[ November 17, 2011, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]

Posts: 1585 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mial
Member
Member # 12687

 - posted      Profile for Mial   Email Mial         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
God is a guy.

Mial, which means, who is God is a girl?

Women are better at being evil =)

Posts: 7 | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlueWizard
Member
Member # 9389

 - posted      Profile for BlueWizard   Email BlueWizard         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What a pathetic God he/she would be if they were merely an enhanced human.

Far far far more likely God is an essence. The collective of all spiritual essence in existance, again, much like Card's Outside.

If God is this magical all powerful all knowing infinite being, it would seem kind of limiting to have a physical body. A physical body is finite; how can one be both finite and infinite at the same time. I mean beyond simply saying "he's God, he can be what he wants'?

To hyper-personify God, greatly diminishes IT.

As this whole God idea goes, I think it has more holes than a Swiss Cheeze.

But then, that's just my opinion.

Posts: 803 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Far far far more likely God is an essence. The collective of all spiritual essence in existance, again, much like Card's Outside.
You introduce the words "omnipotent" into the equation and "more likely" is just kind of a laughable concept.
Posts: 14497 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Annie
Member
Member # 295

 - posted      Profile for Annie   Email Annie         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would have no problem meeting God and finding out that She was female. I think it far more likely, from my understanding of scripture, that God isn't single and that Gods exist in family units.

Do I believe that exclusively or teach it? No. But it's an idea that seems to go well with everything I've learned. Do I know any of the particulars about Godbodies? Do I know exactly how things pan out after we die? No. But I'm not too worried about that. So far, living the lifestyle that God has taught - being good to people, being unselfish, forgiving others, taking care of my body both physically and psychologically by avoiding harmful things, has done more good in my life than anything else I've studied or tried. So I think the proof is in the pudding, and I have no problem reserving a full understanding of eternal realities until I've reached that point.

Posts: 8503 | Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2