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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Democratic News & Discussion Center 2012 (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Democratic News & Discussion Center 2012
kmbboots
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SenojRetep,

Yes. But I don't approve their goals. Progressives have different goals than anarchists.

Here. I will hand you a gift. I support unification of Ireland. I support Sinn Fein. This means that I can be counted as a ally of some people that have done some bad things in support of that goal. And people who still do bad things that are counter-productive. I need to take that into consideration when I evaluate my support of Irish independence.

Edit: Hobbes, it isn't at all a subtle difference. Anarchists aren't just "extreme" progressives. Should anarchists get the world they want, I would have to actually work against them. But all opponents of SSM want there to be no SSM.

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Hobbes
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These ultra-conservative pastors aren't just "extreme" Christians. Should they get the world they want, I would actually have to work against them. But all opponents of traditional marriage want there to be SSM.

Hobbes [Smile]

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Hobbes
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quote:
And people who still do bad things that are counter-productive. I need to take that into consideration when I evaluate my support of Irish independence.

If this is really your entire point, then I agree. Looking around at the people with whom you share goals is a meaningful parameter with which to examine your goals. But one of the things you have decide is how much you care as it relates to how close you think your goals actually are. I'm aware of eco-terrorists, but it doesn't have a very significant impact on my support of enviromental concerns because I don't see them as being that close to me politically. What, I beleive most people, and certainly I, were objecting to was: a) You assigning other people to groups they didn't think they belonged to and b) Giving them moral responsibility for the actions of the fringe elements of the groups you'd assigned. If you want to discard both 'a' and 'b' then all of a sudden: we agree!

Hobbes [Smile]

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kmbboots
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Being on the same side doesn't mean being part of the same group. We were on the same side as the Soviets in WWII; that didn't make us Soviets. Nor did I say that opponents of SSM were morally responsible for the actions of their more extreme allies.* I suggested that you** look around you and see what a good look at your allies might tell you about your cause.

*I do think that I bear some portion of moral responsibility for the actions of, for example, RIRA even though I heartily disapprove of the group and its methods.

**Assuming that you do oppose SSM. You may just be arguing this on their behalf. I don't think I know your position.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Why not? I think it is quite instructive to look at the people "around me" on an issue. If they are distasteful, I think that is useful information about the cause they are serving. Not that every good cause is served by only perfect people, of course, but looking for the where the drooling hate-filled lunatics collect is instructive.

And if an individual somewhere advancing your cause almost to the letter engages in some hideous diatribe and does stuff like hangs bush in effigy, is it useful or fair for me to describe them as being essentially directly comparable to your position and means of advancing your aims?
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kmbboots
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Yep. If they are advancing my cause and the diatribe is in support of that. If there are a lot of them who are hateful lunatics, it should tell me something about what I am supporting. This goes the other way too. If most of my allies are admirable, that says something as well. Of course it also depends on how important or powerful the allies are. Are we talking lunatic fringe or leaders (ministers, senators)?
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BlackBlade
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Democratic candidate's son is caught teaching an undercover reporter how to commit voter fraud.

Kinda angry.

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Vadon
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Democratic candidate's son is caught teaching an undercover reporter how to commit voter fraud.

Kinda angry.

First off- Project Veritas is a product of James O'Keefe. I don't have nice words to say about him.

Second off- I'm pretty ticked.

Edit: I gave some of my reasons for being ticked but removed them.

[ October 25, 2012, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Vadon ]

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TomDavidson
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Again, though, this is O'Keefe we're talking about, and the only group with the footage right now is WND. So grains of salt are required, here, before any outrage; he's certainly earned our skepticism.
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