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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Bain & Romney & Ryan & 533 lies in 30 weeks (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Bain & Romney & Ryan & 533 lies in 30 weeks
Lyrhawn
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I guess I normally wouldn't even care that much.

But the fact that he's so adamant about not doing something presidential candidates normally do without controversy really has me wondering.

I don't normally go in for the whole "what's he hiding!?" hysteria, but I'll admit I'm highly curious, and it looks somewhat suspicious, especially given his track record and what we do know about his finances.

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The Rabbit
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I'm not sure what you mean by "it looks somewhat suspicious". Do you mean "somewhat suspicious that he has done something clearly illegal" or "somewhat suspicious that he has done something politically embarrassing." If its the latter, I'm way past "somewhat suspicious".

Romney's taken a lot of flack, even from Republicans, for not releasing his returns. The longer he refuses to release them, the bigger the political liability it becomes. Unless he's an idiot, it's a safe bet that he and his campaign believe that releasing the tax returns will be a bigger embarrassment than keeping them secret.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I guess I normally wouldn't even care that much.

But the fact that he's so adamant about not doing something presidential candidates normally do without controversy really has me wondering.

I don't normally go in for the whole "what's he hiding!?" hysteria, but I'll admit I'm highly curious, and it looks somewhat suspicious, especially given his track record and what we do know about his finances.

I laughed when a columnist noted that it's so nice that Romney has decided that his first issue he will never flip flop on is the release of these tax returns.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'm not sure what you mean by "it looks somewhat suspicious". Do you mean "somewhat suspicious that he has done something clearly illegal" or "somewhat suspicious that he has done something politically embarrassing." If its the latter, I'm way past "somewhat suspicious".

Romney's taken a lot of flack, even from Republicans, for not releasing his returns. The longer he refuses to release them, the bigger the political liability it becomes. Unless he's an idiot, it's a safe bet that he and his campaign believe that releasing the tax returns will be a bigger embarrassment than keeping them secret.

I agree.

I just feel like a hypocrite for playing the conspiracy card after years of slamming the GOP for doing that. I realize on an intellectual level that there's a difference - there's a strong, logical case to be made here that he's clearly making a tactical calculation that taking flak for not releasing them is better than actually releasing them, so obviously there's something to hide or he'd just release and move past it. Politicians release and disavow things all the time.

But on a different level, I feel like a partisan hack.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I guess I normally wouldn't even care that much.

But the fact that he's so adamant about not doing something presidential candidates normally do without controversy really has me wondering.

I don't normally go in for the whole "what's he hiding!?" hysteria, but I'll admit I'm highly curious, and it looks somewhat suspicious, especially given his track record and what we do know about his finances.

I laughed when a columnist noted that it's so nice that Romney has decided that his first issue he will never flip flop on is the release of these tax returns.
It's not surprising at all.

Romney has long taken a pretty firm stance on the issue of him looking bad - he's against it.

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Samprimary
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If you take Romney at his established patterns: like everything he's done, it is a base political calculation.

He has determined that as much as the political damage will be for not releasing his returns (and having his wife literally say "We've given all you people need to know") and catching flak for that constantly all the way up to the election, it is significantly less an issue for his electability than if he released them.

that or it having like a 5% chance of being a ply ploy.

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capaxinfiniti
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PolitiFact addressed Harry Reid's dishonest accusations charging Romney with not paying taxes. From the article:

quote:
Salon.com -- which is generally considered a liberal media outlet, thus no friend to Romney -- asked two tax experts whether they thought it was likely that Romney paid no taxes for 10 years. They concluded, "probably not."

The article quoted David Miller, a tax attorney with the firm Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft in New York, saying it’s "highly unlikely" that he paid nothing.

"It would be easier for someone like Steve Jobs to pay zero, as most of his wealth was in company stock, which isn’t taxed until sold and may never be sold," Miller told Salon. The Salon article continued, "But Romney’s arrangement with Bain is different. He would have earned management fees, and when Bain sold the underlying companies that it invested in, Romney would have been subject to tax on his share. 'It’s possible he paid very little in taxes, but I find it hard to believe that he paid none,' Miller said."

Salon also quoted Joshua Kamerman, a lawyer and CPA in New York, who said while it’s theoretically possible, it’s also "preposterous."

...

We asked Lawrence J. White, an economist at the Stern School of Business at New York University, for his view, and he concurred with Miller and Kamerman. "I agree that it's extremely unlikely that Mr. Romney paid no income taxes for 10 years," White said.

Probably not. Hard to believe. Preposterous. Extremely unlikely.

It's likely Reid is straight up lying. His poor character was known before he launched this defamation and slander campaign but dishonesty of this dark shade shouldn't be ignored, no matter which side of the aisle you sit on.

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Lyrhawn
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Out of curiosity, Romney says he left Bain in 1999, so the last ten years of tax returns wouldn't have any Bain derived income, it'd all be from investment income. So those experts would seem to be a little off, no?

Besides, for a guy who mastered the use of shell companies and off shore accounts while at Bain, I'd be surprised if the taxes he paid were anything but very very low.

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capaxinfiniti
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Out of curiosity, Romney says he left Bain in 1999, so the last ten years of tax returns wouldn't have any Bain derived income, it'd all be from investment income. So those experts would seem to be a little off, no?

Besides, for a guy who mastered the use of shell companies and off shore accounts while at Bain, I'd be surprised if the taxes he paid were anything but very very low.

That's all speculation, and your'e welcome to point to any or all shell companies and tax havens Romney has utilized. Still, it's not approaching the level of Reid claiming - based on information from a source who's identity he won't divulge - that Romney paid no taxes. If he was arguing that Romney paid only capital gains, his speculation would at least be in the realm of possible truth.
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Rakeesh
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*shrug* Shame we can't look at the Presidential candidate's tax history to make these sorts of decisions ourselves.

Which is, of course, totally kosher from the guy running for the election to leader of the 'mistrust government' party.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Out of curiosity, Romney says he left Bain in 1999, so the last ten years of tax returns wouldn't have any Bain derived income, it'd all be from investment income. So those experts would seem to be a little off, no?

Besides, for a guy who mastered the use of shell companies and off shore accounts while at Bain, I'd be surprised if the taxes he paid were anything but very very low.

That's all speculation, and your'e welcome to point to any or all shell companies and tax havens Romney has utilized. Still, it's not approaching the level of Reid claiming - based on information from a source who's identity he won't divulge - that Romney paid no taxes. If he was arguing that Romney paid only capital gains, his speculation would at least be in the realm of possible truth.
Actually nothing I just said was speculation. His work at Bain is fairly well documented. All you have to do is look at the Bloomberg article about what he did in that Italian phone book deal. My point was that your guys in that article are saying that his Bain work must have left some taxes for him to pay, but people are pushing for only ten years, if not all, and in the last ten years, he wasn't at Bain. So as an excuse for calling Reid a liar, it falls flat.

The Reid thing aside, even the one year of returns he released leaves a large number of lingering questions about his taxes and financial dealings. He hasn't come even close to being as forthcoming as the last 30 years worth of presidents, and he's asking us to trust him with the keys to the country with a lot of clouds hanging over his head.

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Rakeesh
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Nonono, Lyrhawn: we can trust him because he's a highly successful capitalist. He's not legally required to divulge more, so we should simply take his word for it that there's nothing dubious in those records.

Funny how that whole 'not legally required' argument still doesn't cut it with the Republican base when it comes to citizenship, though. Weird. Almost as though there's some sort of transparent double-standard going on.

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Lyrhawn
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Romney can't be transparent. If he was, we'd be able to see the wires and motherboard.
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The Rabbit
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So now Romney, the Republican pundits and Fox News are accusing Obama and Dems of trying to restrict voting rights of the military when the truth is that the Ohio republicans have been trying to restrict the voting rights of everyone but the military.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/obama-not-trying-to-curb-military-early-voting/

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Lyrhawn
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I'm to the point where I have to laugh when I see stuff like this.

Not only is it based on a bold-faced lie, since they're literally just making something out of nothing, but it actually obscures yet another attempt by Republicans to enact rules that potentially suppress the votes of others.

It's just icing on the cake that they turn around and manufacture an issue to obscure the controversy.

I noticed Fox News also fails to mention that 300,000 Ohioans signed petitions to get the law added as a ballot issue in November, they disliked it that much.

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Geraine
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Wayne Allyn Root released a column saying Romney should agree to release the past 10 years of tax returns if Obama agrees to unseal his college records. He believes the entire controversy would go away. I mean, we are supposed to be vetting these people right?

http://www.rootforamerica.com/webroot/blog/

Warning, there are some....Well not birther comments but something along the lines of foreign exchange student, scholarships for foreigners, etc.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Wayne Allyn Root released a column saying Romney should agree to release the past 10 years of tax returns if Obama agrees to unseal his college records. He believes the entire controversy would go away. I mean, we are supposed to be vetting these people right?
College records and tax returns are far from equivalent, since it would be quite unusual for college records from decades ago to tell as much about who someone is in the present than recent tax records, which have been the standard for all candidates for some time now until 'Just Trust Me' Mitt.

Frankly, Geraine, I'm a bit embarrassed for you that you would look to a source like that for reasonable compromise. The man's agenda isn't just clear within a paragraph, but his commitment to believing in a terrible Obama conspiracy is right out there in the open as well. So let's be real here: do you really think that if Obama released his college records (a concession which he would be giving up for basically nothing), and nothing shocking was found...that suddenly these thinly-veiled Birther idiots would just pick up their balls and go home?

There's no reason to believe that, because well, Birthers.

If Romney were a man of his principles-limited government, distrust of government, transparency, man of the people, etc.-and if the Republican base actually believed what they say they believe, this would've been a non-story, because the records would've been out ages ago.

It only makes sense when you pin down the only real driving principle this election: Not-Obama. Because that's the important thing right now to the GOP and its base and elements within it like the various Tea Parties. Other stuff might be important but for pity's sake Not Obama!!!! A one-term or even a NO term president when you toss in all the Birther stuff has been the rallying cry for three years now.

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Xavier
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quote:
if Obama agrees to unseal his college records..
I think I mostly missed this controversy. What are conservatives hoping to find? A bad grade? Took too many "radical" classes?

Edit: Nevermind, read the article. Guess it was both of the above and also more birther crap *yawn*.

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BlackBlade
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For the situations to be equivalent Romney would have to release the tax returns, then the long form tax return, then the official primary document the IRS keeps and never copies. Then Obama would release his grades flowed by Romney now being obligated to release his banking statements, and on and on it goes.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
Wayne Allyn Root released a column saying Romney should agree to release the past 10 years of tax returns if Obama agrees to unseal his college records. He believes the entire controversy would go away. I mean, we are supposed to be vetting these people right?

http://www.rootforamerica.com/webroot/blog/

Warning, there are some....Well not birther comments but something along the lines of foreign exchange student, scholarships for foreigners, etc.

Man, geraine. You love to link us to some really nutty sites, and this one has not deviated from your source tendencies.
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TomDavidson
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I love how incredibly, incredibly creepy that picture of "Wayne Allen Root" is.

But, to be fair, the original article is from "The Blaze," which is your run-of-the-mill nutty site. In general, it's safe to assume that any "fact" you see on "The Blaze" is false, and any logic is bad.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
For the situations to be equivalent Romney would have to release the tax returns, then the long form tax return, then the official primary document the IRS keeps and never copies. Then Obama would release his grades flowed by Romney now being obligated to release his banking statements, and on and on it goes.

Obama would take that deal in a heartbeat.
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AchillesHeel
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Romney can't be transparent. If he was, we'd be able to see the wires and motherboard.

Considering how glitchy he has been, I think he is still running on vacuum tubes and tesla coils.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
Wayne Allyn Root released a column saying Romney should agree to release the past 10 years of tax returns if Obama agrees to unseal his college records. He believes the entire controversy would go away. I mean, we are supposed to be vetting these people right?

http://www.rootforamerica.com/webroot/blog/

Warning, there are some....Well not birther comments but something along the lines of foreign exchange student, scholarships for foreigners, etc.

Man, geraine. You love to link us to some really nutty sites, and this one has not deviated from your source tendencies.
I do? I guess you have special powers to know that I love to do something. I don't remember constantly linking nutty sites in the past, but perhaps you have me confused with somebody else. It has happened before.

Root lives here in Las Vegas, and has been on a couple of local news stations as well as radio stations talking about this. Yes, his article on The Blaze was the only place I could find any of his comments in print. Since I cannot easily link a radio interview or local news program, it was the easiest way.

But hey, if you want to accuse me of "loving to link nutty websites" you should probably speak up more, since 90% of the posters on this forum have done just that in the past.

Honestly, what Root was doing was exactly the same thing Reid is doing. Throw out information based on mysterious sources, and then say "Well it is up to the other person to prove me wrong."

And to a degree he is right. Does anyone here honestly think that Mitt Romney didn't pay taxes for ten years? If Romney didn't pay taxes and he then blamed it on Turbo Tax, would you accept that excuse?

If the argument is that he didn't pay as much as others, then come out and say that. Don't throw out allegations that he didn't pay taxes at all. It is likely that Romney didn't pay as much in taxes because he wasn't actively earning money. Even raising taxes on millionaires wouldn't affect Romney unless something is done about capital gains tax. The democrats aren't even asking about that. They want higher federal income tax on the rich, something that really won't help much at all, but it helps them get votes, so why not?

[ August 08, 2012, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Geraine ]

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Rakeesh
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Well I guess that's one way not to respond to muliple explanations of how the two things aren't at all the same and that the request's purported claim of equality is deeply hypocritical.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Well I guess that's one way not to respond to muliple explanations of how the two things aren't at all the same and that the request's purported claim of equality is deeply hypocritical.

No Rakeesh, I find the entire argument about Romney's tax returns completely idiotic. Reid is a blithering idiot and I have no idea why my state keeps re-electing him. He is doing nothing but talking out of his ass, so how is that any different than Root?

Let me ask you something. Do you honestly believe that Romney didn't pay taxes for 10 years? Do you believe what Reid is telling you? If so, Why?

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Lyrhawn
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Geraine -

Whether or not he paid taxes for the last ten years isn't really an issue for me. Personally I think he paid some taxes, at an incredibly, ridiculously low rate that would embarrass him, and they should.

But there are many other perfectly legitimate questions being raised by tax experts who have looked at his 2010 return and some a lot of potential problems. Without seeing more returns for explanations, those questions cast serious doubt on his credibility and transparency.

Reid is going about it via a fairly underhanded tactic, but I actually find it pretty amusing. Republicans have been making shit up for years far, FAR more aggressively than Democrats and then altering reality to make everyone believe it. They created impossible burdens of proof, which is why the vast majority of Republicans think Obama is a Muslim who was born in Kenya. But this doesn't even come close. All Romney has to do to shut him up is release his returns, and the issue goes away. And the bitch of it is, it's really not that unreasonable a request.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
I do? I guess you have special powers to know that I love to do something. I don't remember constantly linking nutty sites in the past, but perhaps you have me confused with somebody else. It has happened before.

No, it's you — I've commented on it before. Your take on political issues or controversy usually comes paired with links that give some insight into the kinds of places which you frequent. They're weird and they're often full of lies.
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TomDavidson
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As a side note: in every economic model I've seen, a higher federal income tax actually helps quite a bit, as opposed to "not much at all."
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Let me ask you something. Do you honestly believe that Romney didn't pay taxes for 10 years? Do you believe what Reid is telling you? If so, Why?
No, I would be quite surprised to learn Romney was either that criminal or that stupid. Nothing I've had much to do with Reid's attacks-my irritation with the Romney campaign and my disgust at the blunt hypocrisy of the Republican base on this matter is entirely in Romney's refusal to release more records, and the insistence that the refusal is perfectly legitimate and unobjectionable, and that those who raise questions are somehow wrong to do so.

The party that claims to mistrust concentrated government power and government secrecy fields a candidate who goes to some political trouble to make sure we know less about some pretty critical parts of his life, personal and professional, before we make a decision to elect him, to know less about him than has been considered acceptable for candidates for, what, thirty years?

This after a years-long campaign of slander, racism, and xenophobia against Obama that is still powerfully believed in by a big chunk of the Republican base, and you offer up the 'compromise' that Obama should release records far less significant and far less recent than Romney's, and then pivot to 'well we're supposed to be vetting them both'. It's not the same thing at all.

You're a conservative, that's cool. Disagree on a lot, but that's kosher. But unless you throw some of the most important principles of conservatism overboard, your response to Romney's stubborn secrecy on this issue cannot be anything less critical than a serious wariness...unless, as with the GOP, your actual guiding light here is 'No More Obama'. That's why I said your bringing this up was embarrassing.

You're supposed to be the guy who, when politicians do this sort of thing, waves a big red flag and starts the sirens. The question is-why aren't you?

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Samprimary
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Because the par strategy is, essentially, if it's actually a problematic issue (and it is) the immediate narrative that is sold in response is a distraction. At least here I'm happy it's not (yet) a popular obvious distraction, because it's so baldly 'oh yeah, well look over there what's obama hiding your side does it too equivalence what a non issue etc'

Man, if Obama hadn't released his tax returns I would have just thought the exact same thing. Namely "Well then, I wonder what the skeleton in the closet is." Oh, and the Republicans would have just adored and piled on that opportunity. I might have preferred that they sink into something .. uh, how to put this? Not retarded? Not william ayers slash jeremiah wright slash barack nate dhalani is a muslim kenyan wheres the long form birth certificate?

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Teshi
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Whoa, that photo of Wayne Allen Root on his website is a the creepiest image of someone I have ever seen, unless he's got a waxwork image of himself and that's what's pictured there.

It's like he's a Ken doll made out of a mould: deeply over-suntanned skin, shiny white, even teeth, lifeless stare that doesn't quite fix on anything, slightly oversized clothes that don't hang like full-scale clothes do, smoothed-away wrinkles.

This has no bearing on how crazy he is, but he sounds pretty crazy nonetheless.

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Teshi
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Related to the above issue, I think those people who follow Romney probably don't care about his tax at all. If he paid less, they probably would laud him for having managed to avoid paying taxes, which is, as far as my impression goes-- kind of a major point of Republicanism at the moment.

"Hey, here's a dude who hates taxes so much, he pays as little of them as possible! He's just like me."

How many Republicans will really be upset enough to vote for Obama if it turns out that Romney has been gaming the system-- that's what they want, isn't it?

All in all, politics in America appears to be considerably more corrupt that it appears to be in the UK, and possibly even in Canada. I feel bad about that.

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BlackBlade
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For me I wouldn't mind one wit if Romney used loop holes to avoid paying taxes. Every American seeks to minimize their tax burden to the best of their abilities. He just happens to have more ability and information than most.

What I do mind, is his coming in with a fiscal reform platform, and all his talk has been about tax cuts, spending cuts, and simplifying the tax code, but not in a manner that would close the loopholes folks like him use, just so the less wealthy see their "entitlements" taken away.

I just don't think the money is there. I absolutely would be OK with my own tax burden increasing, so long as we all increase it together so that we can start paying down the debt.

But no, it's always "Everybody but me and my constituents need to pay."

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Teshi:
Whoa, that photo of Wayne Allen Root on his website is a the creepiest image of someone I have ever seen, unless he's got a waxwork image of himself and that's what's pictured there.

For how absolutely terrible the photoshop job is, they might as well have used a waxwork image.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
For me I wouldn't mind one wit if Romney used loop holes to avoid paying taxes. Every American seeks to minimize their tax burden to the best of their abilities. He just happens to have more ability and information than most.

What I do mind, is his coming in with a fiscal reform platform, and all his talk has been about tax cuts, spending cuts, and simplifying the tax code, but not in a manner that would close the loopholes folks like him use, just so the less wealthy see their "entitlements" taken away.

His tax plan makes absolutely no sense even when Romney is given the absolute best benefit of the doubt.

quote:
Lots of justified talk today about a new Tax Policy Center report on the distributional implications of the Romney tax plan, showing it to be very much a Dooh Nibor – that is, reverse Robin Hood – thing. Obama is talking it up; Romney, predictably, is dismissing the report as the work of a “liberal group”.

The question one might ask is, did TPC – which is actually painstakingly and painfully nonpartisan – make questionable assumptions to get its results, so that some other set of assumptions might portray Romneynomics in a more favorable light? And the answer is no: TPC actually bent over backwards to literally give Romney every possible benefit of the doubt.

Here’s what they did. They took Romney at his word that he plans to offset his cuts in income tax rates by broadening the base, that is, limiting exemptions and other loopholes. They also assumed, however, that Romney would not be willing to tax dividends and capital gains as ordinary income, since he has made it clear that he opposes any rise in taxes on investment income. As they point out, this leaves a relatively small pool of loopholes to close – big enough that the Romney tax cuts could, in principle, be paid for by base broadening, but not with a lot of room to spare.

So which loopholes are closed? TPC made the most Romney-friendly assumption they could – namely, that base broadening is concentrated on top incomes as much as possible. First you eliminate all deductions that benefit those with more than $1 million in income; then all that benefit those with between $500,000 and $1 million; and so on.

The key point is then that even if you do this, the tax cuts Romney gives high-income Americans are bigger than the loopholes he could conceivably close...

quote:
This means that even on the most favorable assumption, the Romney plan would give the rich big tax cuts on net – which means that to be revenue-neutral, it must raise taxes on Americans making less than $200,000 a year.

So they’re actually giving Romney every possible benefit of the doubt – and still his plan is a redistribution from the middle class to the rich. In practice it would surely be much worse.

I’ll be curious to see how all this gets reported. The TPC results are ironclad; there is no valid Romney counterargument except to say that he doesn’t really mean all that stuff about actually making up for lost revenue. My guess is that the stories will nonetheless be he said/she said, but maybe I’ll be favorably surprised.

Dooh Nibor

quote:
1) The Tax Policy Center bent over backwards to make Romney’s promises add up. They assumed a Romney administration wouldn’t cut a dollar of tax preferences for anyone making less than $200,000 until they had cut every dollar of tax preferences for everyone making over $200,000. They left all preferences for savings and investment untouched, as Romney has promised. They even tested the plan under a model developed, in part, by Greg Mankiw, one of Romney’s economic advisers, that promises “implausibly large growth effects” from tax cuts. The fact that they couldn’t make Romney’s numbers work even when they stacked all these scenarios on top of one another shows just how impossible Romney’s promises are.

2) The reason Romney’s plan doesn’t work is very simple. The size of the tax cut he’s proposing for the rich is larger than all of the tax expenditures that go to the rich put together. As such, it is mathematically impossible for him to keep his promise to make sure the top one percent keeps paying the same or more.

3) This is going to be a huge problem for the Romney campaign. The Romney team has tried to paper over the fact that its policy promises don’t add up by withholding the crucial details that independent analysts need to do the math. But now independent analysts are filling in those details for them (the Tax Policy Center’s look at Romney’s tax plan should be read in tandem with the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities effort to flesh out his spending promises). And, ultimately, that’s worse, as actors with more credibility than the Romney campaign are showing what the Romney campaign was trying to hide.

4) Evidence the Romney campaign does not have a good counterargument, part one: If they thought releasing more details would make the plan look better rather than worse, they would have released them rather than letting outside organizations fill in the blanks. It’s essentially the same theory as refusing to release the tax returns. But now the Romney campaign is receiving pressure — including from conservatives — to release those details, which they know they can’t do. And unlike on the tax returns, no one can say that the details of Romney’s plans for governing the country are irrelevant to this campaign.

5) Evidence the Romney campaign does not have a good counterargument, part two: They tried to brush the Tax Policy Center’s analysis off as “just another biased study from a former Obama staffer.” That former Obama staffer is Adam Looney, one of the study’s three co-authors, who was a staff economist on the Council of Economic Advisers from 2009 to 2010. But William Gale, one of Looney’s coauthors on this study, was a staff economist on George H.W. Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers. And the Tax Policy Center is directed by Donald Marron, who was actually a principal on George W. Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers. Calling the Tax Policy Center biased is ridiculous. Just ask…the Romney campaign, which referred to the TPC’s work as “objective, third-party analysis” during the primary. Oops.

The Nine Takeaways
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Let me ask you something. Do you honestly believe that Romney didn't pay taxes for 10 years? Do you believe what Reid is telling you? If so, Why?
No, I would be quite surprised to learn Romney was either that criminal or that stupid. Nothing I've had much to do with Reid's attacks-my irritation with the Romney campaign and my disgust at the blunt hypocrisy of the Republican base on this matter is entirely in Romney's refusal to release more records, and the insistence that the refusal is perfectly legitimate and unobjectionable, and that those who raise questions are somehow wrong to do so.

The party that claims to mistrust concentrated government power and government secrecy fields a candidate who goes to some political trouble to make sure we know less about some pretty critical parts of his life, personal and professional, before we make a decision to elect him, to know less about him than has been considered acceptable for candidates for, what, thirty years?

This after a years-long campaign of slander, racism, and xenophobia against Obama that is still powerfully believed in by a big chunk of the Republican base, and you offer up the 'compromise' that Obama should release records far less significant and far less recent than Romney's, and then pivot to 'well we're supposed to be vetting them both'. It's not the same thing at all.

You're a conservative, that's cool. Disagree on a lot, but that's kosher. But unless you throw some of the most important principles of conservatism overboard, your response to Romney's stubborn secrecy on this issue cannot be anything less critical than a serious wariness...unless, as with the GOP, your actual guiding light here is 'No More Obama'. That's why I said your bringing this up was embarrassing.

You're supposed to be the guy who, when politicians do this sort of thing, waves a big red flag and starts the sirens. The question is-why aren't you?

I'm not debating whether or not he should release more tax returns. My entire point was that Reid is phishing and people are making this more of a controversy than it should be. Root suggested that Romney bring back the college transcript controversy to shut Reid and the Obama campaign up. Root's suggestion to Romney shows just how silly the entire argument by Reid is.

Do I believe Romney should release more tax returns? He could. To his credit, President Obama has released the most at 12. Clinton and Bush released 8. The further you go back, the less they released, with the exception of Roosevelt, who released 25 years.

I'm not arguing that Romney should or shouldn't release more tax returns. I'm arguing that the accusations made are nothing more than an attempt to push an agenda and create controversy.

And let's be honest. Whether or not Romney releases the tax returns, the Obama campaign wins. If he releases them it shows that he caved and possibly gives the Obama Campaign ammunition. If he doesn't release them, then he will continue to get attacked by the campaign anyways, but could possibly show to his base that he is willing to stand up to the Obama campaign.

Your call of hyprocrisy is weak. If vetting candidates is so important to you (it should be) where were you in 2008 when there was a candidate that nobody knew anything about? Ayers or Rezko ties? Ah, those don't matter! Just sweep it under the rug. Drug use? Meh, no big deal. Black Liberation theology? Hey, good for him!

If you did post about looking into these things then I apologize. But I'm just going to pull a Reid and say it is up to you to prove it.

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Destineer
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I don't understand why the Ayers thing is any kind of big deal to anyone. It's entirely normal for politicians to hang out with the likes of Ollie North, who committed very serious crimes. Or Cheney, for that matter, who has admitted to breaking US law and international treaties by ordering waterboarding. It's just normal for people in politics to hang out with influential criminals who fit with their ideology.
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Ron Lambert
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Dick Morris also has recommended that Gov. Romney tell Obama that he will release his tax returns beyond the two years he already has, if Obama will unseal all his college records, so America can see what it is he has been hiding.

As for relative business acumen: Does anyone think that Obama could even be in the same league with Romney as a businessman?

Would anyone here care to defend the totally dishonest and horrifically vicious "Romney killed my wife ad," currently making its way in Facebook feeds, etc., which continues the utterly insane attempt by the Obama camp to use Romney's past association with Bain against him? The facts are that Joe Soptic's wife died seven years after Romney left Bain; Bain tried to save the GST steel plant where Soptic worked and had his health insurance; and it was an Obama bundler that ultimately closed down the plant.

Aren't any Obama supporters getting ashamed of how low the Obama promoters are being in their deliberate, outrageous falsehoods? Are there any crimes the Obama people will not accuse Romney of being guilty? Are they so truly desperate that they feel they must resort to such tactics?

Anyone who favors Obama should question the wisdom of an inexperienced lightweight like Obama (who never had a real job in his life, other than a political career based on make-believe), trying to attack Romney on the basis of his business experience and acumen.

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Darth_Mauve
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Germaine--everybody agrees that Reid is most likely (95% likely) making things up.

Let it go.

Everybody but Mr. Romney agrees that he should release more Tax history to squelch this tempest in a teapot. However, it is his choice.

Let it go.

However, the call of Hypocrisy is correct. All the Birthers out there (Birthers, not Republicans or Conservatives or Tea Partiers, just the Birhters) who demanded that President Obama release his birth certificate should be demanding Mr. Romney release his taxes. They certainly should not be defending his right to keep them secret.

(You can argue that there is a difference between hiding something that makes you possibly unfit for office is different than hiding something that makes you appear greedy. You haven't argued that, and neither have they.)

You then pull out four totally unsubstantiated rumors crafted by conservatives to attack President Obama. The Drug Use, Black Liberation Theology, Ayers connections and Rezko connections have all been looked at by the regular and conservative media with nothing by innuendo and accusations supporting them.

Kind of like what Senator Reid is doing to Mr. Romney.

In fact they are the same type of blatant lies crafted out of the weakest of connections designed to create fear and prejudice against the politician.

Lets take a quick look at your accusations and how they have played out over the past few years.

Did Obama use drugs? If so we would expect him to legalize it, or be caught using it still, or promote his kids using it, or cut funding to the DEA. None of that happened.

Does Obama support the terrorists Ayers? If so he's dangerous and once elected will appoint terrorists everywhere, destroy the FBI, and declare martial law in preparation for a communist take over. None of that happened.

Does he have corrupt ties to swindlers like Rizko? If so we should be finding lots of corruption charges pressed against him and his folks. Less of that has happened where money is involved than in the past administration.

Does he support Black Liberation Theology? If so then he would support all kinds of reforms that promote Black domination of the rest of the country. He would be appointing only or majority black judges, administrators and more. His record is neutral on that.

The fact that you find four of these mudslinging lies to paint President Obama with, while we just have Reid's one lie on our side says something very important as well.

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kmbboots
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I don't think that anyone is saying that Gov. Romney wasn't an experienced and successful business man. Just that his business wasn't all that good for people who weren't Bain stockholders.

Being able to make a lot of money as a business vampire and fixing the US economy are not the same skill set. In fact, they are contradictory.

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Ron Lambert
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Darth_Mauve, you suggest that Obama would do such blatant things if the proven facts of his association with Ayers, Rezko, and (the irrev) Wright were true. What if he has an I.Q. above 80, and is capable of being somewhat subtle, so he can maintain power and implement more of his strategies for turning America into a third world nation?
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Ron Lambert
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kmboots, calling Romney a "Business Vampire" is another example of Obama camp extreme dishonesty and viciousness. Are you willing to repeat every such term the Obama smear merchants are willing to invent and throw out there? Is there some point at which you will say to yourself, "Wait a minute, these guys are all-out negative in everything, and have gone way beyond the limits of credibility and even decency."

They are accusing Romney of being a childhood bully. Do you buy that, too?

Romney so clearly outclasses Obama in knowledge of business and economics, and Obama is such a failure in keeping any of his promises, the Obamanaughts must resort to such desperate methods to smear a legitimate opponent.

I bet Obama tries to get out of facing Romney in any debates--he has to know Romney would crush him.

[ August 09, 2012, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Blayne Bradley
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Turning America into a third world nation would be an improvement in some categories; such as wealth distribution.
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Teshi
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This thread is tragic.

There's Ron, who has a point about the appalling Obama ad that so unnecessarily tries to link the death of a woman without health insurance to the failure of Romney when they should just point to the fact that the woman, in a country that used to lead the world, had to hide her cancer because she was worried about paying the bills. Universal Health Care? Takes care of that. Lose your job for whatever reason? You still have health care.

All of you undermine yourselves when you go extreme on the rhetoric.

Ron-- you should know that a businessman does not necessarily make a good government leader. The government is not a business. If Romney wants to be a businessman, he should be a businessman, not a president.

quote:
Obama camp extreme dishonesty and viciousness
But how can this be a fair comment when the so-called Romney "camp" makes the same absurd claims?

*

Every four years, the rest of the world watches America ramp up to fight a two year long expensive civil war without (many drawn) guns. Thousands of hours of effort that could be used to govern the country are thrown away to do it. Each time around, the rhetoric seems to get more extreme and more based in outright lies. From an outsider's point of view it absolutely looks like the country is tearing itself apart over fear, the interpretation of an obviously out-of-date document, and the definition of the word "freedom".

The winner's victory is phyrric, because whoever gets saddled with the 'win' ends up with enormous and growing debt, a media that's forgotten how to ask a difficult question, corrupt and expensive business and financial practices, a broken social system that would rather let its citizens die or live under crippling debt than pay a little more in taxes, a high level of poverty and violence, rampant fear manifesting in burgeoning extreme ideas and religion, a hugely expensive and shamefully large jail population, one of the last few criminal justice systems that ends in death and an utter inability to speak clearly to one another and be heard.

Exactly what 'freedom' is this promoting?

Don't you think that spending this much time at war with yourselves over absurdities is just too much time wasted?

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kmbboots
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Oooohhh! Ron is making predictions! How does that usually work out?

I thought I came up with business vampire on my own. I haven't seen it in any Obama campaign material. But basically that is what private equity companies like Bain are. They employ "roll up" strategies (which generally cost US jobs) to make companies more profitable and squeeze what they can out of a company. Whether the company is better off, or bankrupt - like Ampad and GST Steel - Bain makes a lot of money. About 40% of the companies Bain took over went bust.

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Destineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron "Barack Nate Dhalani" Lambert:
Aren't any Obama supporters getting ashamed of how low the Obama promoters are being in their deliberate, outrageous falsehoods?

[Hail]
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Ron Lambert
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Teshi, when the main problem of the nation is generally acknolwedged to be the economy and other business-related things such as jobs, don't we need someone in office who knows something about business and economics? Such expertise could hardly be a liability!

And what "obviously out-of-date document" are you referring to? The Constitution of the USA? Yes, that ingenious document is what restrains "progressive" fools from turning America into a socialist backwater with equal ruin for all. Of course left wing liberals are impatient with such restraint, and falsely claim that it is "outdated." But it is the best such document ever invented in human history: it is what keeps government from trampling on the rights and freedoms of individuals; it is what keeps arrogant majorities from persecuting minorities; and it provides a level playing field for political competitions, so that the better ideas may win (usually).

And in case you have forgotten, it is regularly updated when the vast majority of the nation sees the need--by the amendment process. Unless you think that "Women's Suffrage" (19th Amendment--1920) is outmoded; or perhaps you believe the amendment that makes the minimum voting age 18 (26th Amendment--1971) is outmoded; or perhaps you think that the amendment that does not allow increases in congressional salaries to take place until the following term (27th Amendment--1992) is outmoded.

The "Equal Rights" Amendment has not yet been approved. But that is not the fault of the document, that is the choice that the people have so far been making (though the margin is close).

I still think Obama was probably born in Kenya, like his grandmother said he was. And I wonder if the foreign student listed in his college yearbook, Barry Soetoro, ever changed his citizenship from Indonesian back to American. Could that be why his college records are sealed?

Dismissing reasonable possibilities for which there is evidence is not indicative of critical thinking. You only accept what you want to believe, and ignore everything to the contrary. It doesn't bother you that Obama listened to Jeremiah Wright's sermons for TWENTY YEARS. It doesn't bother you that OBAMA DID BEGIN HIS POLITICAL CAREER IN JIM AYERS' LIVING ROOM, according to eyewitnesses who were there--and then he lied about it, saying he was "just a guy who lived down the street." You ignore the literary evidence that some have cited that shows that Ayers ghost-wrote both of Obama's books. You dismiss all that as conservative "hype."

Destineer, do you claim to be a prophet who knows the future for certain? Are you that sure I am wrong?

[ August 09, 2012, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Mucus
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Technically, it would probably be more amusing for a non-American like me to believe that Obama is actually not an American but managed to scam his way into the Presidency. Ron, I'm not sure why you think we would "want to believe [that]" Obama is an American.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
don't we need someone in office who knows something about business and economics
This is a common misconception, I'm afraid.
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