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» Hatrack River Forum » Archives » Landmark Threads » At a standstill. A landmark.

   
Author Topic: At a standstill. A landmark.
Altáriël of Dorthonion
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So many things have happened during the past few years that I think it is time I made a landmark to tell you guys about it. Not too long ago, I made a thread stating that I was extremely attracted to a friend who happened to be a transgender. Since then, a whole torrent of things has happened that keeps me wondering what my next move will be.
Let me start from the beginning, since the time I started that thread. After I told him how I felt, it turned out that he was attracted to me as well. We dated a few times now and then, things were going marvelously well. I wasn't his girlfriend, and neither was he my boyfriend. We were just friends who were dating, just to see what happened. It was nothing too serious. One day, he tells me about a friend of his who he is very close too. Then he tells me, that she is a girl who lives a couple of miles away and he hands it to me: he likes her too.
I was shocked. I didn't know what to do or say, how was I supposed to react?
He tells me more about her, and as it turns out, she is a transgender as well, although at a whole 'nother level.
You see, she suffers from Klinefelter's Syndrome which means that her chromosomes end in XYX. In other words, she is dominantly a man, her body is filled with female characteristics. For one thing, she has a female voice and female facial features. She told me that she had needed hormones to grow her breast because from an early age she chose to be a girl. As an intersexual, she had the choice of choosing which sex she would "join" although because of her genetics, she belongs to both. Well, apart from the anomalies in her body, she suffers from some mental traumas. For one thing, she hates her body. She wishes so hard to be a normal girl, but she has male genitalia. She cannot even have children because she was born without sperm or ova. She absolutely detests her body because of her genetic disorder and because of her general appearance. She wishes so hard that she was light-skinned (she is Japanese and people mistake her for Hawaiian), and she isn't too happy about her weight either. She says that she is envious of me because I have a nice figure and lighter skin than hers, not to mention the genetically normal female body. It is because of this hatred towards herself that she has attempted to take her life various times. She told me that she has been in the E.R. countless times because she has either tried to drown, take pills, hang herself or cut her wrists. Well, take all of these things and add the fact that she has multiple personality disorder (her guardian, who is a doctor or something like it, said that she probably has around 7-12). Does she seem complicated enough yet? Well, mix in the horrible childhood she suffered at the hand of her real parents who completely twisted her reality. Instead of being supportive, they were total jerks. She was sexually harrased as a child by an uncle or other close relative, so I know.

Yes, this girl is a very complicated person. I was up against her. You would think that my friend would go for the less complicated choice and ask me out instead of her, right?
From the very beginning, I knew I had no chance of competing against her.
My friend kept telling me, "Do you remember that saying? That if you let a bird go and it comes back to you, it's yours forever?"
He wanted me to let him go, that didn't sound good to me.
I analyzed the situation and came to the conclusion that if he chose me, the other girl would probably try to do something stupid again. She would attempt to take her life again or some other thing.
However, if he chose her, what could I possibly do other than lament and then get over it and go on with life?

I spoke with him about the situation, how I felt about the whole situation. I didn't want to lose him, but I didn't want the other girl to do something either, I care for her and I understand her situation.

He told me that he felt like this was probably not going to be the last time we had a chance to have a go at it. That told me the verdict even when it hadn't been issued yet. I felt it in my gut, he was going to choose her. Sure enough, the next week he tells me that he asked her out. He had made his choice.

I was very disappointed, but not surprised. Both of them are transgender and that is a bond that I will never share with him.

During the next two weeks or so, while she was back home, he took me out to dates and such. I was weak enough to succumb to my desires of being with him. He seemed to do so as well. We fooled around, (just make outs, don't start your kinky minds), until I came to a conclusion: I cannot be the other woman. He had made his desicion and I had to respect it. For everyone's sake.

I told him straight off, I just couldn't bare the thought that every time I kissed him, I was making him something I'd hate him to be: a cheater.

I talked to my mother about the ordeal, excluding his transgender issues of course, and she told me that I should be patient. Maybe he was with her because he felt sorry for her, maybe he was confusing that with love. With all her issues, he probably was.

I consulted with my own gut and found that something inside me kept telling me to be patient. My concience said the following, "Look girl, she may not have a sex drive, but he does. That girl, she cannot be intimate at that level, she told you herself. With all her traumas, it is really no surprise. Also, remember that she has male genitalia, your friend IS NOT A GAY MAN. Be patient, he will come back to you. Try to go on with life, but you should keep your doors open to him."

As much as I tried to forget about him, I just couldn't. I hadn't seen him for about three weeks and I thought that I would survive, but it felt unbearable. I wish I could just open the door and see him there, smiling and with his arms wide open. I couldn't stop thinking about him, and today, he went to where I work. There I was, doing my cashier thing, when he pops up. My heart leapt and once again, I couldn't stop smiling. I thought, "What if he came back for me?"
But I knew that was not the case. He was there with her, and the only reason they were there in the first place, was to buy Nerf guns. Not to visit me. My heart sank when I saw her, I didn't know whether to feel sad because I was reminded that I long so hard to be with him or to be happy because I hadn't seen him for so long.
So here I am, at a loss of anything else to say. What will be my next move? At this point I think I should just bide my time, perhaps things will change. However, how much must I wait? I truly think I love him, but I do not know what to do about it.

There, that concludes my landmark. It is my second one, I hope I improved on my language skills.

Please guys, help me here. I don't know where else I should turn to.

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imogen
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Whew.

Um, I don't really know.

Except I respect and approve of your decision not to be "the other woman". It's not a nice place to be.

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KarlEd
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All the other complications aside, you love someone who (at least for now) loves someone else, and you ask "How long must I wait?".

The answer, of course, is that you don't have to wait at all. On the other hand, you don't have to be in a relationship at all right now. I would suggest using this time to improve yourself and be social (on a friendship level) with as many other people as is practical to you. Don't go out looking for someone else out of spite or jealousy (as this would be unfair to anyone else you might find), but do go out and make friends. Resign yourself to being just friends with the guy in question so that you can be open to and ready for anyone new who might come along. And let that new relationship (when and if it comes) develop naturally, not as a reaction to the love you've lost.

You are under no obligation to wait in the wings for someone else who has (at least for now) chosen another. Perhaps one day he will see what he's missing in you and want to get involved with you romantically. If you are free and still interested in him, great. Even better for you if you've spent the time in between learning new social skills and developing yourself as a person and not as a lady-in-waiting. If you're not free when and if that time comes, well, that's a risk he's taking and the tragedy will be his. It's absolutely unfair for him to expect you to wait around while he figures out what he wants.

Best of luck to you. I often enjoy your posts. Your English is very good, too. [Smile]

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TomDavidson
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The value of "waiting" is rather low in this instance. It makes considerably more sense to find another fish, given the size of the sea.
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Tante Shvester
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I guess that you are now free, single, and eligible. Your next step is to do what feels right, as long as you leave the other guy alone. You don't have to go out and actively seek another relationship, nor do you need to spurn one that comes your way. Perhaps in time your guy will come back to you. Maybe not. And maybe if he does, you will have grown and moved on and no longer be interested.

There are lots of people (me included) who, instead of mourning the loss of an early romance, are grateful that it didn't pan out, since what came next was even better.

So, I wish for you healing from your hurt, and better times ahead.

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Dr Strangelove
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Hey, I know our situations are rather different, but in my angst thread some people have given some really good advice and some of it might be able to help you out. Its a tough situation though. [Dont Know]
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TomDavidson
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You should date Dr. Strangelove. Or Eddie.
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imogen
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TomDavidson, resident Hatrack cupid.
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KarlEd
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Great. Now I got this image of Tom naked, with wings and a little bow and arrow. Thanks a lot imogen. [Big Grin]
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imogen
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[Smile]

Atcha service.

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quidscribis
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*reads post about Tom naked* *screams* *runs from thread in terror*
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pH
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I agree with everyone else that waiting is probably not a good idea. I mean, his willingness to cheat on her with you should send up all kinds of red flags. If he'd cheat on her with you, what's to say he wouldn't cheat on you with someone else? Aside from that, I really think it would be good for you to move on and maybe try to find some less complicated situations. [Smile] Good luck.

-pH

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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Thank you guys, I really appreciate what you guys tell me. I'll never ever regret my desicion to join Hatrack, it's probably one of the best desicions I ever took.
As I mentioned, I'll do my best to move on, but I want to keep the doors open to him.
Besides, he tells me that the other girl is giving him a few problems because she feels inferior to me. Since I am a genetic girl, she feels that she is not equal to me, that she is less than human. My friend told me once that she keeps pushing him away because of this. Aside from her usual problems with what I've already mentioned, he said that she keeps saying, "Why are you with me when you could be with someone who is normal?"
Now, my friend is not a normal person, as I mentioned before, he is a transgender (MTF to be exact), but when she says normal, she means it to the genetic level. With this in mind, I see it as another hint that maybe I should just wait a little for him; maybe, just maybe, my patience will pay off.

There is the side of me that just wants to forget all of this though, that side of me tells me that I should just forget his name, where he lives, everything about him. Like I should start over and forget it all.
Perhaps this is a small reason that I want to travel to Europe in the summer. Well, yeah, I've not told you guys about this but I'll be studying for eleven weeks in France. My school will also take the group to Germany and England. Personally, I don't care if this trip is going to cost me a crapload of money, I want to go. I need to go. I have to go, it is time for me to get away from it all. When all else fails, I guess it's best to put a few thousand miles between us.

Oh, but I must restate the fact that I am not going on this trip to get away from him, that would be a horribly wrong reason to do so. I'm going because I've never traveled and I've always wanted to be an international student. I'll do my best when I'm in France, and it will be a good opportunity to practice and learn French and maybe even Italian and Castillian(I'm familiar with Castillian, it's just like Spanish, but I think it would be a great opportunity to look into my European roots as well since I'm mestizo). The whole experience would be very rewarding, I'm sure.

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KarlEd
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MTF? Meaning Male-to-Female? (At least that's what it means as far as I have heard it used.) But you keep referring to him as "him", so I think I'm misunderstanding something.

Of course, if you don't want to discuss this particular issue in this thread (or at all) I understand. I'm just very curious and the fluidity of "gender identity" has always been a topic of interest to me.

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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I refer to my friend as "him" because I'd have to assign names and such otherwise to make a distinction between the other girl and him. I generally refer to him as a "her" and call him by his female name, but I didn't want to freak anyone out here.
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ludosti
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So your friend is transgendered and the other girl is intersexual and both identify as women?

(like Karl I was a little confused)

[ January 23, 2006, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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Yeah, that trips me out too. I have researched Klinefelter's Syndrome and I keep finding that it only affects men. I've no idea whether they are lesbians or just two gay men anymore. @.@
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ludosti
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Well, of course Klinefelter's (XXY) would only affect "men" since it's the presence of a Y chromosome that is associated with "men". I have a friend that also has Klinefelter's. [Smile]
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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So do you think I am dealing with two gay men who consider themselves lesbians? Life is just too complicated nowadays...
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The Pixiest
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Altariel, unless you're a particularly openminded bisexual, count yourself lucky that your girlfriend left you now rather than later. Would you be able to acept her when she was done with whatever she was going to do?

Pix

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TL
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quote:
*reads post about Tom naked* *screams* *runs from thread in terror*
Poor Tom. Hey Tom, I'll look at ya naked, if no one else... Wait.

*AoD --

You are being jerked around. Let me break this whole thing down for you.

YOU:

Are in love with this guy, and therefore you're willing to wait for him, as torturous as it might be. What you lack is closure. You won't be able to move on while you think there's still a chance.

YOUR FRIEND:

Is keeping you on the back burner (options open) while he does his thing with the girl he chose over you. He's denying you the closure you need, keeping you on a string. As long as he has you on this string he probably thinks there's the chance you might change your mind and cheat with him, or at the very least, if things don't work out with him and the girl he cares about more than he cares about you, he can fall back to you.

He's jerking you around, and it really makes me mad, and it really makes me feel sorry for you. I don't think he's totally doing it on purpose; he's not some evil mastermind. It's probably happening on a subconscious level, but that's what he's doing. He probably has good intentions somewhere on the surface, but deep down, you're being used.

And for all the reasons you gave that made you think it wouldn't work out between him and her, there are just as many reasons why it won't work out between him and you.

You need closure. You need, for lack of a better word, permission. You need to get his permission to move on and forget about him -- and it's going to hurt, and you're going to be alone for what seems like a long time (maybe 6 months, maybe a year) because the thought of dating someone else will seem as alien as eating your own shoes.....

So go have the conversation you know you need to have. End it. Really end it. Get the closure. And move on.

Good luck.

(And if he doesn't want to give you permission -- if he gives you a speech about how he still cares about you and doesn't want to give up on you, *please* recognize what he's doing. Please understand that he's not in love with you, he's just trying to keep you on his string.)

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KarlEd
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AoD,
So, forgive me for not knowing, but are you a guy or a girl? (I was guessing girl). Do you consider yourself gay? or bi?

Again, you don't have to answer if you're uncomfortable with the question. But don't worry about freaking people out. It's a big wide world and we're mostly adults here. [Wink]

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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Well, I had mentioned I am a genetic girl. I'm not sure what I'd be if I was with him. I consider myself straight though.
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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Oh and TL, he tells me that although he loves me very much, he doesn't want to hurt me so that is part of the reason why he chose the other girl and why he wante me to let him go.
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KarlEd
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quote:
Well, I had mentioned I am a genetic girl
RIGHT! Stupid me.

So, (s)he's male to female (post op?), and living as a woman (I presume)? What is it that you find attractive about him/her? And if you consider yourself straight, will life with her be satisfying for you in the long run?

Those are just rhetorical questions. The answer only matters to you, personally.

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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My friend is still pre-op and is also living in student housing, he attends the same university I do and is only on hormones at the moment.
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TL
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He wants you to let him go?

Then I misread the situation.

But my advice is the same: let him go. But not with doors open for the possibility of future happenings... For real.

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The Pixiest
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Altariel dear, it really sounds like the possibilities of long term happiness with this person are nil. With or Without this new person in her life, you can not both have what you want.

If you are straight you want a man, and this person will not remain one much longer.

Go find someone you can really be happy with.

((Altariel))

Pix

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human_2.0
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:head dizzy:

Sounds like you are being jerked around too. But the last girl I dated, I ended up waiting for her far too long even when it was clear that she wasn't interested anymore. Heck, I probably would still date her still if she showed up again. Some of us are just stupid that way and can't not wait even when we know better.

Good luck Alt.

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Swampjedi
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He's trying to control Alt? Delete him.
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Lyrhawn
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*smirks at swampjedi*


Alt-

I know how you feel, well, minus all the gender issues, so I guess I don't, but I can imagine. It hurts, but sometimes love just isn't enough, especially if it's one sided.

You have a lot going for you, and deserve someone who makes you his first choice, not his second. Let him go for awhile, try and get to a place where life feels good without thinking about him, and see where that takes you.

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Swampjedi
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I'm sorry, Alt. I know how it feels when your heart feels trapped. I do think that completely letting go is your best bet, as several have already said. Once I let go of the girl I loved, things got much better for me. Granted, things weren't like you describe.

One-sided love and one-sided commitment are no fun at all. Don't let yourself fall into that place to the point where you can't come back out easily.

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clod
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I'd like to smirk, too.
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Swampjedi
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<grins />
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Beren One Hand
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quote:
He told me that he felt like this was probably not going to be the last time we had a chance to have a go at it.
That is a terrible thing to say to someone you are breaking up with. Alt, you deserve so much more than this. [Smile]

Do you think part of what's bugging you is that due to your sympathy for the other girl, you were not able to fight for this guy as hard as you would've liked to?

Deep down inside, do you regret not having given him this speech?

quote:
Your choice, it's simple. Her or me. And I'm sure she's really great, but I love you. In a really really big, pretend to like your taste in music, let you have the last piece of cheesecake, hold a radio over my head outside your window sort of way. So pick me. Choose me. Love me.
Sometimes what we lament for is not the lover, but love unexpressed.
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pH
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Yeah seriously, him giving you the idea that you guys could get back together in the future is bad. Very bad. And honestly, if you guys have issues now, it's not likely it would work out in the future.

I once agreed to break it off with a guy I was absolutely nuts about because there was this one thing about me that was really important to me at the time that bothered him a lot. Since then, said thing has become far less important to me, but I still wouldn't go back to him because I feel like he should have understood that this thing was important to me at the time. Does that make any sense? My brain is a little addled at the moment.

-pH

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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Maybe that is what I did. I really did feel sorry for the girl so I didn't fight as hard I could've. I 'll take this as a lesson that in matters such as these, its choosing who will rather get hurt, her or me. By not fighting as hard as I could, I have compromised my happiness with him and in doing so, lost it. I will never put someone's happiness before my own anymore, at least not when it comes to such types of competitions. Just like we Mexicans say, in war and in love, there are no rules.
Perhaps it's time I start living by that a bit more.

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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quote:
Originally posted by pH:
Yeah seriously, him giving you the idea that you guys could get back together in the future is bad. Very bad. And honestly, if you guys have issues now, it's not likely it would work out in the future.

I once agreed to break it off with a guy I was absolutely nuts about because there was this one thing about me that was really important to me at the time that bothered him a lot. Since then, said thing has become far less important to me, but I still wouldn't go back to him because I feel like he should have understood that this thing was important to me at the time. Does that make any sense? My brain is a little addled at the moment.

-pH

Oh, I feel your pain. Your brain's I mean. [Big Grin]
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pH
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At least it's addled for happy reasons. My bed is being delivered in between five and nine hours.

I should really go to bed. But I'm so excited!

Edit: And by "bed," in the second instance, I in fact mean "couch."

-pH

[ January 24, 2006, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: pH ]

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