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My husband started reading the book and wondered why the greensong doesn't apply to the human organism (when Alvin is healing Rien). Later in the book, it talkes about people generating "noise". Is it our free will that makes us not a part of nature?
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I suppose in a way it is. It's that nature acts a certain way, and the white man does not. The red man acts, obeying nature (as is mentioned in Red Prophet) not controlling it. Thus he will add his music to the song, but the white man acts differently, without any though of nature and is thus a distraction to the song, not part of the melody.
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Before he was healed, (going back in the series) Tenskwa Tawa drank to escape the noise that enveloped him after the murder of his father. Are all the works of whites violent? What about the music the plow made?
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Well when he drunk he just got rid off all noise, he could hear a little of the greensong but for the most part he just blocked out stuff by using alchool to shut off his brain.
I think the thing was (or at least how I interpretted it) that white men can create their own noise. It's not necessasrily not a melody in it's own right but it isn't the smae melody nature makes. Like playing two really good songs at the same time, they might both be good but listening to them at the same time detracts from each song.
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I thought the noise that Tenska Tawa was trying to drown out was the noise of senseless, violent death, which tears at the web of life.
The greensong is the song of life -- which includes the natural deaths of organisms, but not murder. Whites cannot hear the greensong because they do not try to hear nature and work with it, but bend and break it to their will. That's the "noise."
I just reread the part about Alvin healing Rien -- I see no mention of the greensong at all. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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My husband was saying he thought there should be a greensong type thing in the human organism, no it wasn't in the book. But we are into eastern alternative health dohickeys.
I know it's hard for whites to pick up the greensong, but there is also not greensong in the lands they have settled. I guess it is just one of the "rules" of that universe.
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I thought the greensong was drowned out or muffled by the way whites treat the land. White farming practices disrupt the natural patterns; domesticated animals are not in tune with the land; the roads and buildings impose their own linearity over the natural curves.
As for greensong inside an organism, why should there be? It's the song of many many organisms working in natural harmony with the land, neh? I don't think the average human -- especially one suffering from yellow fever -- would have a particularly harmonious body. Additionally, just as Alvin can't see things that are too small, perhaps he cannot hear them either?
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I was thinking of "chi" which I think all people have, not just asians. The human body (like all other animals) is a government of organelles.
We often talk of cancer as "eating away" but rather than corruption, it is ungoverned growth. I think the description of Ruth's cancer was not bad in that respect. Unbounded making can be a destructive element.
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All people had better have chi, or there are a lot of acupuncturists in SoCal who are gonna be out of work.
But I don't see chi as the same as greensong. And even if it were, might it not be too small/faint for Alvin to see it, just as the bacteria and viruses are too small for him to see properly?
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I was watching a show about Tolkein on PBS last night and they were discussing the Orcs. Rather than being a racial metaphor, the "expert" said they symbolize humanity being mechanized.
I thought this was very interesting with respect to the music made by the plow. It isn't machinery that is inherently bad (or do I mean Orcish), it how it is used for self-interest instead of "making".
Generalized to the real world, it is a shame that the construction of most machines seems to require a capitalistic paradigm. I mean, I'm not generally an anti-capitalistic sort. I'm just trying to express what I feel about this in a clear way.
So is capitalism like a machine that can be Orcish or not, depending on the intent?
Orcs were once elves who were decieved by the evil Morgoth (I think, it's been a while since I've read Silmarillian). Once they chose to follow Morgoth they were changed to Orcs and Orcs are inherently evil.
Perhaps once technology and machines are harnessed by a corrupt capatalist society they become inherently Orcish!
Okay, first post by new member... I'll shut up now
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Can they go back and forth between Orc and Elf, like how Santa goes between Heaven and Hell in "Homeless in Hell"? (short story in OSC Library on this site)
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Thats the best Christmas story I'VE ever read. Yeah, okay, so I'm being raised Jewish, but still, Christmas somehow manages to wedge itself into my consciousness...maybe it's the Dickens! Or the malls.
Anyway, Orcs and Elves are separate species. If species is the right word for such things. I suppose, now that I think about it that Elves could technically be twisted into Orcs still, but see, I myself always understood it to be a sort of evolutionary process rather than a choice.
Morgoth was evil. But back in the day the Elves didn't KNOW he was evil, so some of them sort of turned traitor to the rest of their people and joined up with Morgoth, and I rather imagined that over the long years they evolved to match the evil that held sway over thier minds and hearts.
(Talking about Tolkein makes me write vaugely in his style. Forgive the bizarrness of diction please)
Santa chooses to continue his service to the victims. He's definately not evil, I would even argue he's rather a jolly good old fellow, neh?
Orcs would be in the houses with the big-time evil. As Frodo says in RotK (book, not quite yet seen movie) the spirit of Mordor (which is what endured of Morgoth's legacy) encourages dissagreement and such. Orcs fit with that spirit. They'll kill and betray each other if there is no one else, sometimes even if there is. Orcs are bad.
Now there's an original thought on my part. Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
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So what brings you to Hatrack? OSC's next book will be about someone with your same name.
I almost want to read the Simarillion before I finish Two Towers and Return of the King.
It's funny how Tolkein's books reach backward, in a way. Certainly Lord of the Rings follows Hobbit, but it involves so much backstory. I have got to find out if I'm spelling that right.
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What brings me to Hatrack? I assume the same as everybody: OSC is up there on my top 3 authors list: Tolkien (I too have spelling isssures, or maybe it's just my typing skills), Kurt Vonnegut Jr and this site's raison d'etre.
I admit I haven't read any of his biblical books, but if there's going to be one on my namesake perhaps I should get on it! Sooner than I would anyway, as I race thru his works becoming more and more amazed with everything I read.
Yeah, the whole LotR family (hobbit and FotR TT RotK)actually reminds me in a way of the Ender series in that the prequel is so seperate from the 'real story'. still good, but not so monumentous or throrough, in my opinion anyway.
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His first biblically inspired novel was Stone Tables and his next book, from what I've heard, will be Rachel and Leah . Hence the reference to part of your name.
I've just started reading Tolkien, I haven't ever read Vonnegut, mainly because I never read any assigned reading in school. But maybe I'm only imagining that we were assigned Slaughterhouse 5 in school.
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Your highness, welcome to Hatrack! From the feel and tone of your posts in this thread, I'd say you're going to fit in beautifully. Have you been over to the other side of the river--the Books, Films, Food and American Culture forum? It moves more quickly than this side of the river, which can be both good and bad, but I think you'll enjoy it.
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I like the Orc comparison to industry. It is clear that their is much too it.
I would go further in the Tolkien definition of evil though and say exactly how he defines evil. Morgoth for I will name him as the elves did (The Enemy) sought to master what he could not create. Enslavement is the ultimate evil.
Orcs are slaves by nature and we see how the twisted life of a slave twists the mind. The power of Morgoth was used to twist and break the Orc and Goblin. The elves who he twisted were taken unwillingly so far as what I have read.
I have always wondered what female orcs were like or if there is such a thing. I know in Tolkien orcs are immortal like elves for they show up centuries after historical events. I refer to the Hobbit and the Orcs of the misty moutains remembering the Dwarf wars.
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BC: Indeed, much to the comparison for it is often said that it was for that reason that Tolkien put in the Scouring of the Shire in RotK (not in movie,in case you havent' read LotR and are confused. I watched the National Geographic thing on the making of LotR and they talked about the destruction of the fields and gardens in the neighborhood Tolkien had grown up in, in order to build more quick-and-dirty housing. Hopefully the pattern here is now clear!
Oh, and BC, I don't think the "in case you haven't read" applies to you. In your writing I hear echos of the golden words as translated from the Red Book.
pooka: I'd be surprised if Slaughterhouse-Five was required reading. It's one of the rather more frequently banned works of liturature. There's a lovely essay of his waxing outraged at the head of a school who actually burnt copies in the school boiler because he was so offended because he had HEARD (not read!!!) that it included an offensive term meaning literally one who has sexual relations with one's mother. That's the reason banned.
Read him! Read him! but with grains of salt. The best description of Vonnegut I can come up with is that he's a mix of Ray Bradbury, George Orwell, and David Sedaris. Funny, biting, some sf elements, some fight-the-man sentiments, and lots of anti-war stuff, as written with many true anecdotes from the life of a WWII vet.
A side note: Treasure Box was not my favorite of OSC's stuff, but I got such a kick when one of my three favorite authors extolled the virtues of the other two!! (The description of the bookshelf's contents)
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I didn't read Treasure Box either. I'm not a usual sci fi or fantasy fan. Except for the Narnia books, which I got for Christmas Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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So, if I may be so bold, what brings (brought? whatever...) you to hatrack? Last I checked OSC was mainly sf and fantasy. Or is he an exception?
Actually, I myself read VERY little sf until I discovered Ender's Game and decided that OSC was an author I could very much like.
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When I was a college freshman I was the legal guardian of my brother, 16. One day the gas was going to be shut off unless we paid the bill in person, so we walked about a mile and a half to the gas office and on the way he told me the story of Ender's Game . I forget if he was reading the book or if I just asked him to tell me a story and that was the one he told. I was so interested in the fight with Bonso, I decided to read it. Prior to that, the only books I could really remember reading were The Great Gatsby and Anna Karenina . When I got married, my husband had copies of Saints , Prentice Alvin and Worthing Saga. I read them a lot during that difficult first year of marriage and right after we were stationed in Greece I read the rest of the Alvin series. I read the Homecoming series when I was pregnant with my third child. After the war in Iraq I got ticked at the ruler of the forum I used to post on so I decided to start posting here. Long story short.
I've read a handful of other classics, I think my favorite is The Brother's Karamazov ; the only other living author I've read is Grisham. From the taste I've had, I figure modern fiction is pretty much an addictive behavior so I try not to get into it to begin with.
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Modern fiction an addictive behavior? Addictive? No! It's nothing like that... I can stop whenever I want! I just... like the buzz. It's not like it's ilLEgal or anything! It's just a harmless pasttime!
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Vonnegut is, if not required at least "highly encouraged" reading in my AP Literature and Compositon class in high schhol. Of course, I doubt he can be any stranger than Song of Soloman (by Toni Morrison), which was required.
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Sometimes one of my kids will yank a book out of my hand, and on some subliminal level I'll know they've been trying to get my attention for a while. I'll feel very angry. Happens with Hatrack too. I belong in a public service announcement.
I went to school in both Northern Virginia and Salt Lake City, and in both places books that were sometimes banned elsewhere at some point in history were prime reading.
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