FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Treason!

   
Author Topic: Treason!
Bean Counter
Member
Member # 6001

 - posted      Profile for Bean Counter           Edit/Delete Post 
I had a rare treat this week, while searching the stack of MWR paperbacks I came across an OSC book I had not read.

Treason was the title, and it is supposed to be a very early work. It was wonderful! The ruthlessness that I loved in Ender's game, the violence and scope of a history shaping story arc. The bizarre semi mystical powers and sciences and the weird extrapolation of a set of initial conditions to creat a new world.

I miss some of that early rawness. Sometimes I feel we have a kinder gentler Mr. Card, while the some of the best writers (Heinlien, Twain) got more cynical and daring as they matured.

It is a weakness to me to deliver the David Eddings ending all the time. I like the book alot.

BC

Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scooter
Member
Member # 6915

 - posted      Profile for Scooter   Email Scooter         Edit/Delete Post 
I really enjoyed that book as well. One of my favorites. I just finished Wyrms and enjoyed that almost as much and they kind of remind me of each other (similar feel in some ways). I'm trying to get a copy of Hart's Hope and then I will have read just about all of em, except the Homecoming series. I have my reservations...worried that my reading of the original source will be somehow tainted by the association of those books. I'll probably break down and read them when I miss reading Card's books enough...maybe.

Anyway, some pretty cool concepts in the book...imagine developing all those attributes in one person (or just read about it in this case).

Posts: 83 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bean Counter
Member
Member # 6001

 - posted      Profile for Bean Counter           Edit/Delete Post 
The thing I realized about the book after some thought is that it reminds of Edgar Rice Burroughs' John Carter of Mars series, not in content but in feel. I loved those books and if OSC has them in his heart as well then it accounts for much of his appeal to me.

BC

Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orson Scott Card
Administrator
Member # 209

 - posted      Profile for Orson Scott Card           Edit/Delete Post 
Glad you like the rawness. But I tell each story in the way that seems appropriate to me. Hard to think of me as being "kinder and gentler." But I have learned techniques other than shocking violence to make something feel important and urgent to the reader; and therefore, having more alternatives, I use the shock techniques less often.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bean Counter
Member
Member # 6001

 - posted      Profile for Bean Counter           Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you for answering! Made my day, which between you me and everybody not insurgent I hope will end with me landing in sunny Camp Liberty!

I liked the Ender that kicked the fellow first grader to death because to me it seems that that is a true reflection of what we are. ERB in his Tarzan books referenced our state as a thin vernier of civilization as you recall no doubt.

It is something that I see in your editorials as well, the knowlege that most of what passes for civilized behavior is sugar coating, what matters is not if you refrain from stealing while you are an affluent teen, but when you have not eaten for a few days.

The new books are indeed more polished, I guess growing up on Tarzan, John Carter, Conan, and Kimball Kinnison makes me love the naked violence with the added warmpth of nastalgia. I am just glad to see you have written in that manner, it makes you part of a great tradition.

BC

Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Treason
Member
Member # 7587

 - posted      Profile for Treason   Email Treason         Edit/Delete Post 
I think it's obvious Treason is one of my favourites.
As the stand-alone books written by Card go, it's right up there with The Worthing Saga, Songmaster and Hart's Hope.

Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orson Scott Card
Administrator
Member # 209

 - posted      Profile for Orson Scott Card           Edit/Delete Post 
It's one of my fundamental premises in all my political and fictional writings: Most human behavior is explainable as "baboon behavior with explanations."

Civilizations consists of trying to emulate the BEST baboons. And making up better explanations.

No, that's too cynical.

In fact, I believe that the most successful civilizations are those that persuade their citizens to suppress the kinds of baboon behavior that make it impossible to trust each other, while encouraging the kind of baboon behavior that makes the species successful in the short and long run.

Two things, at least, set us apart from baboons:

1. Human females are effectively in estrus most of the time.

2. We can acquire practical memory through language, oral and written.

The first point is what makes monogamy practical and possible, thus creating reproductive order out of rivalry and violence and chaos. It allows large numbers of people to create and take part in a varied gene pool with reasonable reproductive security, so that the maximum number of males and females can take part in reproduction. It also means that alpha males can be suppressed by collective action and females can gain some measure of control over their own reproduction (i.e., rape can be suppressed, as it is among baboons).

The second allows us to benefit collectively from experiences we haven't had, from people widely separated from us in time and space. It allows civilizations to be meaningfully "the same" despite the passage of many generations and thousands of transformations great and small within the civilization.

The veneer of civilization may be thin (and I think it is), but if we can sustain it, it makes the most people happy as possible at any given time.

So naturally, I tend to write about the people who are miserable - but committed to sustaining civilization anyway (or healing a sick one).

Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bean Counter
Member
Member # 6001

 - posted      Profile for Bean Counter           Edit/Delete Post 
It is perhaps the greatest failure in our society that we have lost the hard common sense that human nature is animal nature. From this we assumed the worst and strove for the best, now there is a faith in a non existant inherient goodness that can be reached when it is software that must be installed!

Oh well, Iraq is nice, wetter then I expected actually. The chow is great though the motars at dusk put one off dinner. [Smile]

I should not make light there were some casualties but (non fatal) and I was not one so fear not.

Babboons, I hate em, and so apprently did our ancestors, they killed them by the tens of thosands in what might be termed the first wars against another species. Perhaps a book about those wars and the hatred we had for them would be a good Science Fiction theme!

BC

Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
1135813
Member
Member # 7816

 - posted      Profile for 1135813   Email 1135813         Edit/Delete Post 
Mmm, what's a David Eddings Ending? One where the bad guy gets a sword through the head and the good guy gets married, or where the Dark Spirit flees to make room for Belgarion II?
Posts: 20 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orson Scott Card
Administrator
Member # 209

 - posted      Profile for Orson Scott Card           Edit/Delete Post 
I'd be fascinated to know what your source is on the "baboon wars." I'm not doubting you, I just want to read more. Because I love the idea of at least a story about such an interspecies war.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bean Counter
Member
Member # 6001

 - posted      Profile for Bean Counter           Edit/Delete Post 
Lets see, a David Eddings ending is where nobody dies ever, evil loses totally and humiliatingly and the good guys all have a party afterwords and the god's all work for the guy with the blue rock!

I have to think about where I read about the Baboon wars, I believe it would be in National Geographic in the eighties, mass graves were found where thousands of Baboons at a time died amidst many thousand fist sized stones, the sites were multiple and the assumption was that early hominids drove the baboons into a great mass and then rained stones on them until they were all dead. I liked that theory. Of course a new theory may be in vogue to account for the sites. I have not kept up with the theory, however it has stayed with me!

It seems more interesting in light of your description of man and Baboon as so close, who do make war with but your near peers?

BC

Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Craig Houghton
Member
Member # 8143

 - posted      Profile for Craig Houghton   Email Craig Houghton         Edit/Delete Post 
While I don't have anything substancial on the baboon wars of the past, this link I happened upon suggests that there's still some battles left to be fought.

http://members.aol.com/Toonsamples/baboons.html

"...Saudi Arabia is particularly baboon prone these days, with tales of baboons raiding farms, houses, and even schools. But probably the strangest report was where a troop deliberately wait in ambush."

-Craig

Posts: 7 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
1135813
Member
Member # 7816

 - posted      Profile for 1135813   Email 1135813         Edit/Delete Post 
All the gods except for everyone's favorite incarnation of evil, of course. And somebody does die-- he just just gets resurrected, so Polgara can get married and become a contributing member of the human race.
Posts: 20 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SteveRogers
Member
Member # 7130

 - posted      Profile for SteveRogers           Edit/Delete Post 
I can't find this book anywhere, it disappoints me.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hamson
Member
Member # 7808

 - posted      Profile for Hamson   Email Hamson         Edit/Delete Post 
It's pretty cheap on Amazon . I got it for my B-day, but I suspect thats where my parents got it from. Haven't had a chance to read it yet though, as I'm in the middle of the Alvin Maker series.
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
This thread reminds me of a funny quote from some stand-up comic whose name I can't remember, but it goes something like this:

"Why haven't we sent a man to Mars?"

"Because, there aren't any Martians. If there were, we'd be up there slaughtering them and stealing their planet."

baboons.

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
*pat pats alluvion*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bean Counter
Member
Member # 6001

 - posted      Profile for Bean Counter           Edit/Delete Post 
Well naturally, losing the Russians was the hardest blow we ever had to our Space Program, we should all weep for the lack of a good solid enemy out there for certain! If only the Klingons would do a drive by!

BC

Posts: 1249 | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
johnsonweed
Member
Member # 8114

 - posted      Profile for johnsonweed           Edit/Delete Post 
If we were to find a good bad guy in space then we might be able to get past our peculiar fixation on our (rather subtle) intraspecies differences (a la the Hegemony).
Posts: 514 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Magson
Member
Member # 2300

 - posted      Profile for Magson   Email Magson         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I have to think about where I read about the Baboon wars, I believe it would be in National Geographic in the eighties, mass graves were found where thousands of Baboons at a time died amidst many thousand fist sized stones, the sites were multiple and the assumption was that early hominids drove the baboons into a great mass and then rained stones on them until they were all dead.
Have you read David Brin's Earth? There's one scene in there where a guy's being menaced by a baboon troop until he remembers that *we* are more evolved becuz *we* are made of tougher and more aggressive stuff. The rest of the scene is left ot your imagination, but a bit later in the book there's mention made that while the guy's boss's didn't really approve of his methods, the baboons had been much less aggressive since "the incident" and they couldn't argue with results. . . . I thought it was a kinda funny way to handle that and your comments on "Baboon Wars" and your quote seeming to indicate that maybe our protohuman ancestors really did have to be the biggest, baddest, and meanest monkeys on the block reminded me of it.

And Earth is a pretty fun book too.

Posts: 1323 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
Chimps, at least, are funny (at times).

Has anyone ever gotten a giggle from a baboon?

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, but alluvion, even the word "baboon" elicits giggles. Haven't you ever hung out with a gaggle of three-year-olds? "Baboon" is incredibly funny-- especially "baboon bottoms", which has double appeal, also being about rear ends!
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
X12
Member
Member # 5867

 - posted      Profile for X12   Email X12         Edit/Delete Post 
Well...

I acquired A Planet Called Treason, read it a while ago, and re-read it recently. I have yet to read Senior OSC's "revised" Treason, but I don't know if I should. Obviously, besides Senior OSC, who has read both? Whcih did you prefere more? Do you believe that both should be read or just one or the other?

To tell you the truth, I rather liked the style and pace of A Planet Called Treason, it had a rather ruthlessness in it that really enjoyed com,ing from Senior OSC.

~Aphotic

Posts: 100 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
signine
Member
Member # 7671

 - posted      Profile for signine   Email signine         Edit/Delete Post 
I just finished reading the entire Dune series, and a lot of Herbert's writing reminds me of Card's. Especially after reading the "baboon" comments, it really seems to fit.

There are some differences though, certain and huge.

One of the premises I find very interesting from Herbert's books is replicated in a way in the Ender series. The idea of a project lasting many lifetimes, and the survival of humanity nearly hinging on the requirement for such projects to exist. While admittedly in the Ender books we follow the lifetime of a character, these characters frequently establish ideas and/or institutions that will far outlive them.

In the case of Ender, his near-c voyages enable Valentine and himself the ability to translate their ideas through generations, and not just through decades. The case of Peter is special, seeing a massive power void left by an extinct threat, and realizing that the survival of the species depends upon collaboration and not warfare. In many ways Peter reminds me of a less-cynical BG from the later novels, he uses warfare as tool, but never as an excuse.

One thing I have noticed about the writing of OSC though (I'm tempted to say "your writing" because I know you're going to read this), is a lack of organizational power struggles. Yes, SotG and SotH both include massive political struggles, but most of these are between individuals in control of the government. Herbert's a pretty strong contrast.

Am I seeing a similar theme to Herbert in this though? Herbert seems to contend that government is a necessary evil, but that the basic function of government should be to protect the freedom of the people, and seek out their welfare. A particularly interesting point is his lack of a judicial system (practically enforced). In Card's work, on the other hand, we see individuals operating within or without the government, frequently without any care as to the role of the organizations which could oppress them.

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, but I think I'm curious as to Card's view on the role of government in human affairs, in a more broad range than the political essays he writes so eloquently.

Posts: 68 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
It occurs to me that Jane Goodall reported on the "war-like" behavior of chimpanzees in one of her works . . .
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dagonee
Member
Member # 5818

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee           Edit/Delete Post 
There's a documented case of chimp genocide. I read about it in Jared Diamond's "The Third Chimpanzee."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
The Pam and Pom stories always got to me - where the mother and grandmother would kill and eat the baby chimps, starting (but not finishing)with the mother's babies . . . *shudder*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
that's purty grim.

KQ,

Speakin' 'o' spankin', I got one in my inbox curtesy of the misses. Dunno who I offended. That always comes as a bit of a shock, and I'm thinking, now, that I must have some kinda social learning disablement. I like to think my barbs are well-aimed, in a fashion.

Sometimes honest-to-goodness common sense repartees, and sometimes "diggers".

Anyhow, it would be nice to know who I offend (apparently this is more frequent than I'd like to think)

I'd like to make amends to the folks I cross in my ignorance, but probably more imporantly, I'd like to know whom my sword-crossing friends are.

anyhow, KQ, I think yer a charm.

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
I think, Mike, it boils down to holding off on the "add reply" button for a minute or two - rather like pausing before you speak.

*smile*

No shooting from the hip - aim with more discretion and charm.

That being said, I appreciated your comments about boundaries and took remedial action to fix the issue. Thank you.

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
Ok, Shan, but can I ask you...

why isn't shooting from the hip allowed? That sounds like the first step of devolution into an elitest subculture, no?

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
*ignores "add reply" button warning*

but, I understand where you're coming from, I think.

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
I only offer what I have learned from experience - sometimes, it's just best to not press that dang button . . . to go away . . . post in a fluff thread - or *gasp* - turn the whole shebang off and call it a night.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
don't press the jolly-red candy-like button?

*presses button*

*opens one peeper*

*opens the other peeper*

Hey! The universe didn't disintegrate after all!

-

Seriously, though, what distinquishes a "fluff" thread from one that might bring calamity down on my head, in you're experience?

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
Oh - I figure fluff threads are the threads around "hugs" and obvious "game" threads - like your rib-tickler you just started, or Bob's pun threads, or the "title" game . . .

And there might be others, I dunno -

I suppose the old "if you can't say something nice, take it over to Ornery . . . " JOKE (possibly poor taste)

And, smart aleck - as you well know, it's not the "pressing of the button" - it's the content matter inserted ahead of "pressing"

*wanders off to finish getting ready for work and leaves alluvion to play in the sandbox*

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
ok. so, its the content. and, that's my fault. I have difficulty articulating my ideas and opinions, particularly when I get "carried away" with some line of thought.

*builds a sandcastle for shannon*

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
and, in true form, I'd like to suggest, in quick-reply format, that "Possibly in Poor Taste" would be an awesome thread title for some brave soul (not this one)

"Poor taste" being aimed at the cultural-cooties scurrying about the mindsets of hatrackers rather than, you know, the "obvious mindlessness" of the off-hatrack world.

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
You are courage incarnate, sir -

*admires sandcastle*

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alluvion
Member
Member # 7462

 - posted      Profile for alluvion   Email alluvion         Edit/Delete Post 
shan,

If I could make one ill-advised quick-reply request in your direction, it would be to re-affirm that indeed, I am "Peppermint Patty".

[ June 18, 2005, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: alluvion ]

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Shan
Member
Member # 4550

 - posted      Profile for Shan           Edit/Delete Post 
You got it, Patty . . .

*picks up bucket and shovel and trundles off to gather artifacts for the sand castle*

Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2