posted
On the topic of learning, reading good books and all that stuff that we, as "Mormons", are mandated to do in order to enrich our lives and mind, your name came up today. They had gotten on a superfluous discussion that good books don't have to be written by LDS authors. Which spawned the equally superfluous but disingenuous comment that some LDS authors are known to write bad books. Bad, meaning not conducive to enlightenment or personal growth. Then the teacher immediately used you, Orson Scott Card, as an example but gave no specifics.
Frankly, I was taken by surprise but I understand where they are coming. Even though I've always felt a connection to your stories and characters some of them were hard to get through. Emotionally wrenching but always real. Always applicable to the things that have happened or are happening in my life. Just by reading your stories I have been inspired and, if not simply, by their cathartic effect on my state of mind, given me the will to be more open to people and the world around me. Pulling me out of my selfish little word of self pity and compel me to share my incites with people who are in need of encouragement. With that in mind, how are they not good books? Yes, some of the stories are gritty and difficult to get thought but so is life. But with pain comes growth.
My impression is that these people who consider your books "bad" are those that look to literature as an escape form the grittiness of life. They would much rather find inspiration from sugarcoated stories that superficially depict their harrowing struggles and instead focus on how great the light was the lead them to where they wanted to be. I discovered that way of thinking back in the '93 when I returned from my LDS mission. I would tell people like it was, no sugar coating. I found myself alienated from half the ward in no time. "No sugar coating from me sister." (or brother) depending on who was waiting for a romanticized, spiritual anecdote from "The Land of the Long White Cloud".
Nonetheless, grittiness is not their thing. Is it because they are not ready to face the human reality from which they want to be sheltered? Or are they to a point in their lives that they can see the light without having to first drag them selves through the proverbial gutter?
I don't think it's necessary to literally drag myself though the gutter to understand what it's like. However, if I were to expose my thinking to those that have had that experience it only makes sense to me that I would come to a greater understanding of myself let alone the human condition. Yet it seems that so many people are not willing to open their mind thinking that an open mind is easily corrupted. No, I say an open mind is an intelligent mind with enough discernment to know what true corruption is. A closed mind is a corrupt mind that has no idea it's been corrupted.
Mister Card Sir, I can call you sir, right? I'm very grateful to have read your work and I'm one to tell you that despite your detractors within the religion, which you are a part, you are an author of good books.
Posts: 527 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Anyone who can read "Earthborn" and consider it "not conducive to enlightenment or personal growth" is using definitions of these words with which I am not familiar.
And that's cherry-picking the easiest example. There are at least a dozen others where the conduciveness should be screamingly obvious.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
That's... very surprising, to say the least. I wonder which works that particular teacher was exposed to. I suppose someone thinking about using OSC's mainstream fiction as LDS teaching aids might kind-of-but-not-quite legitimately complain about the occasional use of profanity (or, in the case of Hart's Hope, constant use thereof), but to complain that fiction written for a mainstream audience doesn't sufficiently espouse Mormon ideals is pointless.
Of course it doesn't. It was never intended to, except in that the universes depicted function in a similar manner to the author's understanding of how the real world works.
Sexual predation, brutality, all of these things exist in the real world. In my opinion, truly uplifting stories do not ignore these issues (except where they truly do not apply to the story at hand), but instead show us how to transcend them and make sure that we are part of the solution rather than the problem.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hi I'm new here. Having said that I've been a member of the LDS church my whole life. I've found that people tend to say things without telling you how they came to that conclusion. This is probably one of the hardest things to understand.
However you have to remember that someone can think one thing enlightening then another can find that same thing completely not enlightening. A great example of this is the Grand Cannon, some may say it’s sooo beautiful and makes them understand more clearly that there is a god. Me on the other hand would say it's a very large hole in the ground that we should try to file so people wouldn’t have to go so far out there way to get around it.
But what do I know I’M NEW.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I remember my first Sunday once in a new ward. The Relief Society lesson (Relief Society is the LDS women's organization) was something about good literature. One woman raised her hand and talked about the evils of Science Fiction and Fantasy and how it had led her son away from the gospel and we should all avoid it like the plague. I was stunned. Had I moved to hell? How would I survive in this new ward? Then another woman raised her hand and talked about the SF books she and her husband loved and the deep spiritual questions they had been able to explore through them. She saved the day for me (and became a dear friend) and I vowed then that I would be as brave as she was and not let unjust defamation just sit there as if it were agreed upon truth. I would be willing to speak up, and do it as kindly as she did.
That said, I do appreciate your kind words here about Scott's work. But you have no idea how devasting it is to learn that somewhere in the church people have that negative attiude you describe and others are not willing to speak up and give a more balanced and positive view. I'm not mad at you, it's a hard thing to do. But I guess I would rather not have known that it happened at all than that nothing was said or done to redeem the situation. It was just left in everyone's mind as agreed upon by all right-thinking Saints. That makes me very sad. Telling us what happened is only painful, speaking up changes the world.
quote:One woman raised her hand and talked about the evils of Science Fiction and Fantasy and how it had led her son away from the gospel and we should all avoid it like the plague.
Would that have been Sister LeSueur, perchance?
Posts: 6213 | Registered: May 2001
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quote: I've found that people tend to say things without telling you how they came to that conclusion
That quote amuses me greatly. Eric Snider, a Mormon comedian who is also the bane of the holier-than-thou set within Mormon culture, once suggested that the 2002 Winter Games wouldn't truly be the Utah games unless they included some popular Mormon winter sports, including "Downhill Jumping to Conclusions."
posted
Such reactions are very typical of any religion, volunteer organization, family, club, school, bank, park, movie house...frankly, any place where people gather, there will be opinions from those who seem to think that those said opinions represent the majority.
That's the great thing about freedom. You can respect people's opinions and speak up for yourself. If people are offended by Card's work, well, they're free to feel that way even if it seems "sad" because it doesn't agree with our own opinion.
Card does have a very healthy view of religion, but he also makes a point to argue against issues he doesn't agree with. The problem with celebrity is that they can be more persuasive than prophets, so there is a fear that such will sway others down a path others do not tread...
Ah, the fickle tides of religious culture.
Posts: 325 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
You know, I spoke up frequently in the ward I was raised in when some of the "teachings" seemed very wrong - it didn't get me anywhere:
i.e., girls could get a 2-year home ec degree if they really really really felt like they had to have some college, but nothing else because their most important function was to keep the Elders in their family (father, brothers, sons, husbands) fed and dressed appropriately. As in, learing to cook, launder, iron, and tie ties was supposed to be critical to my evolution as a young woman. I wanted to get my BA and study history and anthropology and music.
The other one I always had a wee bit of a problem with was the assertion that the only way to get to the highest part of the celestial kingdom was to be married and have children. No children, no celestial kingdom. Period. And no waiting, either. You were supposed to get married right out of high school, or during college. No careers other than motherhood.
Any challenge on my part to those statements were met with - shall we say - less than nice discussion. It usually resulted in one of two things: A) I was too young to know any better and B) my father was next door to being the devil which meant I was suspect, too.
And since my father was inactive and had his own hard feelings to deal with, he didn't offer the guidance or help I could have used in navigating the murky waters of "what is personal opinion" and "what is doctrine."
You have NO IDEA how relieved I have been to learn from following threads and discussions with LDS folks that one very ill ward does not an entire religion sick make . . . It has helped me let go of some of the stickier, more painful issues wrapped up my early experiences . . .
posted
I've had similar experiences in my own ward, but OSC hasn't been jumped on yet. But at the rate things are going, I'm sure it will probably lead there eventually...
Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Steev - It is hard to stand up to people who make blanket statements in church like that but you really ought to try to. You'd be amazed how many people agree with you. I remember when I was a young woman just out of college and returned to my home. Suddenly there I was in Sunday School with people who used to be my teachers - now they were supposed to be my peers! I almost always spoke my mind when people said things that I thought were incorrect. And every time I did, someone would come up to me after church and say thank you.
Perhaps also, in the spirit of the scriptures, you should go to this person and ask them what is "bad" about Mr. Card's work.
And can I also say that Earthborn is one of the most spiritually profound books I have ever read? Next to Red Prophet, that is?
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I want to learn how to speak up in a church meeting if I disagree with something said. What is a good way to do that nicely? How do I be nice when I am angry and defensive? My emotions get too involved and my temper flares. I got angry reading about Steev's experience. Nobody messes with Orson Scott Card!
The last time I got upset, it was a comment that it was a waste of time to watch TV. I got so angry that I had to take time to calm down and by that time the discussion had moved on. Nobody messes with my TV time!
Luckily the teacker came back with the "everything in moderation" comment which made me feel slightly better.
Posts: 29 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
An LDS friend of mine said he was getting grief from using non-Deseret materials in Sunday School. Apparently there was no claim that they were incompatible with LDS, just that they didn't come from Salt Lake City.
I guess there's an up side. Whenever somebody goes overboard for orthodoxy, at least there is a concept of orthodoxy.
My (Baptist) dad sent me a (non-Baptist) book on bringing thoughts in keeping with Christ. It included repenting of involvement with the occult, which included science fiction. Burn it! Burn it!
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
This is a little off topic, but it relates, I promise.
I was always told to read OSC's EG series (and I picked up on the Shadow books on my own) but to avoid any of his other books because they had "sex scenes" and such... bad books...
now before I get jumped on and mauled-- I have no idea-- I've only read the Speaker and Shadow books. I guess I never broke out from those thing I'd been told years ago.
As for my opinion (stretching across the Enderverse) OSC is a man with a gift. A gift he shares with each of us. I honestly feel I live a better life after having known Ender, Bean, Peter, Val, Jane, even Achilles. Thank you, OSC, for that. As to your other books-- if they follow suit, I hope to find that out soon!
Posts: 84 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kacard: That makes me very sad. Telling us what happened is only painful, speaking up changes the world.
I'm sorry. My post was my way of making up for not getting the chance during Sunday school. Unfortunately I'm addressing the converted on this board. But I believe now that I’ve been able to crystallize my thoughts enough that I won’t be so tongue-tied if or when it happens again.
Posts: 527 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
One of our Sunday School teachers teaches in a fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan--that is, NO dissenting opinions permitted, because the opinion he holds is OBVIOUSLY the Correct Doctrine confirmed to him by Personal Revelation and Bruce McConkie.
Drives me nuts whenever he teaches. It is hard indeed to "speak up" with a different way of looking at it. Imput is discouraged unless it conforms to his worldview. The last time I disagreed with him in class, our argument became pretty heated, so much that someone came up to me after class and told me they thought there was going to be a brawl in Sunday School. So I empathise with Steev and everyone else who has a tough time speaking up. It's difficult.
p.s. I mention this behavior not to disparage this person. When he isn't teaching, he's a really, really nice guy. I consider him a very good friend, and he's a faithful Latter-day Saint and a good person. It's just that when he assumes the Holy Mantle of the Sunday School Teacher, he all of a sudden becomes The Great Dictator.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
it's hard to speak up, especially if you are younger or if it's to a supposed "authority figure" wherever you are, could be a priest, a parent, a policeman!
I remember specific instances in school where a teacher EMBARASSED me infront of the class and in hindsight it was soley because she was irritated that I expressed an opinion different to the one that she held!
Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:One woman raised her hand and talked about the evils of Science Fiction and Fantasy and how it had led her son away from the gospel and we should all avoid it like the plague.
It would be interesting to hear her reaction to someone like me, because my experience was the opposite of her son's.
I became interested in the LDS church largely BECAUSE of the ideas I encountered in OSC's books (with some credit due also to various cool Saints on Hatrack, also to the sisters who later tracted at my house).
I'm a convert of nearly five years now. If the issue ever comes up in my ward, you better believe I'll have something to say. Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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If it's a simple error of fact - i.e., the church-history incident that was mentioned didn't actually happen as reported - you can raise your hand and kindly say, "Just for the record, what Joseph Smith ACTUALLY did was ..." Do it in a way that treats your own statements as "parenthetical" and doesn't attack the lesson, and you're probably OK.
But when the whole gist of the talk or lesson is WRONG WRONG WRONG, then don't say a single thing at the time. Just hold it in abeyance and at the next plausible opportunity, deliver the opposite message without any reference to the first one.
But when the WRONG message is being given, do notice who seems to be bothered by it or upset by it, and take them aside afterward and ease their mind. Do the healing one by one, until you have a chance to put the correct idea into circulation.
A great deal of studious humility is, of course, very useful in this. Because even when you're correct about the other person being WRONG, that doesn't necessarily mean that your own belief on the subject is RIGHT. <grin>
posted
Okay, I will think about it and try it out in the future. (And just for the record, I really do watch too much T.V.) Thanks, Orson Scott Card. I think that was a perfect answer. Posts: 29 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I guess if I am the only one bothered by a comment then that is when the "studious humility" comes in to play. Posts: 29 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I've just learned that the cockier I am about how right I am, the more likely I am to have some humiliating error in my own beliefs. This especially shows up when arguing about directions while driving.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
By the way, Papa Moose: It wasn't Sister LeSueur. The woman who went on the rant about sci-fi was having problems with one of her sons. There was a lot of conflict in their home, and since he ALSO read a lot of sci-fi, she was using that as an explanation for what was causing her to "lose" her son.
In later years we became friends and worked together on plays. Being fellow theatre people trumped the negative feelings about sci-fi, and I do believe that she has even broken down and read some of my stuff.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
That's why knee-jerk reactions to things you hear are never very helpful, because often there's more brewing under the surface than meets the eye.
I've taught lessons where someone asked a blunt, contentious question with all the fuel to start a royal rout in class. As a teacher I've learned to diffuse it while being respectful by either asking additional questions to get to the REAL root of the issue, or to table the question with the promise to discuss it after class. It always seems to work, and everyone's feelings are soothed across the board.
Posts: 325 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
It is a knee-jerk reaction to for me to get angry at someone's comment. It caught me be surprise when it happened actually. I never realized I had such strong emotions about some things. Talk about humiliating errors. I'm a nice, pleasant, good person and I let my anger get the best of me. I'm learning, I'm learning...
Posts: 29 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
The same goes for me too. When I get angry I get tongue-tied. In fact I surprised my self at how angry I got. I had not realized that I had strong feelings about it until it happened. My anger seems to be what protects me from lashing out a knee-jerk reaction when it’s not appropriate.
Posts: 527 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Anger as a protection from saying something inappropriate? I like that. Gives me time to think up something to say when it is appropriate. Something witty and parenthetical. (I seriously had to look up what parenthetical meant. ) (I love to use parentheses now!)
Posts: 29 | Registered: Jan 2005
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