posted
In my reading, I came across this blog spot talking about the LDS film maker Richard Dutcher. The part I want to give notice to is "THE FIRST GREAT MORMON WRITER WILL BE EXCOMMUNICATED" section. To quote for those who don't want to read the whole thing:
quote:"{Dutchers} sharpest memory of his first year at {BYU} was a statement made by his playwriting professor, Max Golightly: ‘The first great Mormon writer will be excommunicated from the Church for his writing.’
” ‘That statement sent chills down my spine,’ Dutcher says. ‘I knew that I wanted to become a great writer. I remember hoping and praying that he was wrong.' "
Orson Scott Card is brought up in this discussion. Some of the highlight quotes include:
quote:That has not been the case. The first great Mormon writer, Orson Scott Card, has had far more success than any other Mormon writer in history. He has done popular plays, novels, video games, and etc. Only 1/3 of his works are directly Mormon, but a significant non-Mormon audience have read and even enjoyed those few direct contributions. {Yet, he continues to be ignored as a sideshow to Mormon literary history.} Perhaps that goes back to literature’s dislike of SciFi as a genre, but his books (especially “Enders Game”) are getting read in colleges. . .
quote:I totally agree that Orson Scott Card is the first *great* Mormon artist. I believe that Eugene England has made the same point elsewhere. Some elitists may disagree otherwise, but that was a point I had actually thought to make, but forgot to include . . .
. . . So I believe that Max Golightly’s “prophecy” fell flat on its face. Card’s talnet and success (deserved success!) does not take away from Dutcher’s.
quote: And for at least some of us, he was the first intelligent and well-educated Mormon to whom we were exposed, and the understanding his books conveyed of what it means to be a Mormon was influential in our conversion to the church.
There are so many questions this brings up I am not sure where to begin. Perhaps I will list, in no particular order, what questions come to my mind.
1) What does it mean to be a good Religious (not just Mormon) writer?
2)Why do you think OSC, in LDS circles, is often mentioned without getting lauditory recognition? Is he not "edgy" enough, or too topical mainstream, or even too genre specific?
3)It begs the question of why there are not better LDS writers when the LDS influences of OSC often are part of his writing? I know there are other good LDS Sci-Fi writers, but they never go beyond their genre and into Mormon topics.
4)For those who are not LDS, what would it take for you to be interested in reading a Mormon specific book. There are some here who have enjoyed OSC's religious books (think Women of Genesis, Stone Tables, and even Lost Boys) and would never pick up any other LDS authors.
The list goes on, but these seem to be the least trivial. I guess my main point is that best way to know someone is to talk with them. Reading is a way to understand a community. Sadly, not all communities are good at communicating no matter what positive traits they have. Less people enjoy reading history or autobiography (the two literary strong points of LDS writing) than they do fiction. Considering all the good that OSC has done in helping others understand contemporary Mormonism, I wonder if this lack of talent has left an untapped communication opportunity.
Now I am rambling. Any thoughts?
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quote:2)Why do you think OSC, in LDS circles, is often mentioned without getting lauditory recognition? Is he not "edgy" enough, or too topical mainstream, or even too genre specific?
I think that he offends too many Mormons, often managing to offend both sides of an issue, for him to ever be received with open arms.
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quote: There are some here who have enjoyed OSC's religious books (think Women of Genesis, Stone Tables, and even Lost Boys) and would never pick up any other LDS authors.
I don't see why this is surpising. I like OSC a lot, hence I read all the books he writes. I'm at the point where I don't read them for subject matter but simply because he writes them. For me to be interested in other Mormon themed books, I'd have to either first come to love the author or have them recommended by somebody whose opinion of books I trust.
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I'm LDS myself, and that is also why I've read OSC's LDS books. I've never read any other LDS fiction.
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Mormon's make up roughly 2 % of the U.S. population. That would mean that 2% of great writers would be Mormon, all other things being equal.
Do you think there are 50 great U.S. writers since the early 1800s? (I'm just wondering what your threshold of "great" is.)
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Mormons have not been 2% of the population since the early 1800s, so all things being equal, you wouldn't expect 2% of the great writers since the early 1800s to be Mormon.
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I have to admit that I got a little surge of minor rage when I read the quote that he's the first *great* Mormon **artist.** I certainly agree that he is a very great artist, but my grandpa was creating art when OSC was still in his mama's belly, and he was as Mormon as they come.
I think there are a lot of truly great Mormon artists out there. I have many in my family. I don't think it's so much that they get little recognition as it's the fact that they're Mormon isn't often touted. I mean, how many Catholic or Lutheran or Wiccan artists can you name right off the top of your head? Unless they're making a large body of art that's specifically ABOUT their religion, you're not likely to know what an artist's religion is at all.
Anyway. I'm not disputing that OSC is a great Mormon artist, of course, as I'm a huge fan of all his works I've had the pleasure of reading, including his Mormon-themed works. But I think it's misleading to believe that he's the first truly acclaimed Mormon artist. I'm sure great Mormon artists can be identified as far back as 1830! Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Okay, now to answer the OP's actual questions:
quote:1) What does it mean to be a good Religious (not just Mormon) writer?
As I am not a religious person, I don't care if a religious writer doesn't stick exactly to doctrine or scripture. I care whether they make the story come alive - in short, whether they are a good writer, period. I think that's probably more difficult to do with religion-founded stories, as there are a lot of pre-existing conceptions of "how it should be" among your readership. In all the religious fiction by OSC that I've read, this problem of making a satisfying, yet still religiously palatable story was handled very deftly.
quote:2)Why do you think OSC, in LDS circles, is often mentioned without getting lauditory recognition? Is he not "edgy" enough, or too topical mainstream, or even too genre specific?
In short, because he's still alive. It's a sad fact that almost no artists get the acclaim they deserve while they're still animate. All the lauding and revering comes after they're no longer with us, when we can't really see them as "just an average guy" anymore. I think that's particularly true in tighter communities (as in, within a religious community as opposed to the world at large, if you see what I mean).
quote: 3)It begs the question of why there are not better LDS writers when the LDS influences of OSC often are part of his writing? I know there are other good LDS Sci-Fi writers, but they never go beyond their genre and into Mormon topics.
I think truly good writers are just few and far between anyway, regardless of their backgrounds. I mean, let's face it. Without getting all slobbery-fangirl here, I think most people on this forum will agree with me that Mr. Card is probably one of the better living writers on the planet at the moment. Definitely among the top 100, at any rate. Add to that the fact that he writes mostly in spec-fic, and he becomes an even rarer item.
I'm sure there ARE a lot of very talented, published, well-known writers who are Mormon, but we just don't happen to know they're Mormon. OSC just sticks out because he's such an exceptionally good writer.
quote: 4)For those who are not LDS, what would it take for you to be interested in reading a Mormon specific book. There are some here who have enjoyed OSC's religious books (think Women of Genesis, Stone Tables, and even Lost Boys) and would never pick up any other LDS authors.
It would take my being engaged during the first page. Honestly, that's what does it for me. If the first page grabs me, I'll read it to the end. That, and an interesting title, which is why I usually pick a book up in the first place. I really enjoyed Saints and I LOVE Women of Genesis. Lost Boys really stuck with me, but it shocked and saddened me, of course - I still recognize it as one of the better books I've ever read, though. I haven't had a chance to delve into Stone Tables yet, and I still need to buy A Woman of Destiny, which has been staring at me from the local Half Price Book's shelf for a couple of months now.
Did I mention I'm an atheist?
I'm not put off by religious books, and I adore historical fiction - especially "ancient" historical fiction, such as Biblical-times fiction. But it has to be GOOD. I tried reading another book called Sarah, by some other author who's also writing a series on the women of Genesis. Snorefest. I put it down about three chapters in, and I was so happy to find OSC's version of Sarah's story instead. All it takes to get me to read a religious book is a good writer to create that book. Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Libbie, who is your father? Nice picture by the way.
I actually agree with you. While I didn't get a "surge of minor rage," I thought that *artist* was taking things a bit too far. It seems that Mahonri Stewart was mixing artist with the sub-category of writer a little too easily with no real definitions. There are some great Mormon artists as far back as the 1830s. My favorite Mormon painter is Minerva Teichert who has been an inspiration beyond any current ones. As far as what I consider a good fiction writer, that is harder to find.
I guess Dagonee and Libbie have brought up an intersting question (even if I think Dagonee misinterprets the discussion). Why should we even care if there are "great" Mormon artists?
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"Great" is a word that is so subjective it is without meaning.
I assume we mean "Mormon fiction writer" - because by any other measure, the first great Mormon writer, and still the greatest, is Joseph Smith. For sheer impact of words on paper, his achievements are beyond any other Mormon writer and most writers of any other stripe as well.
But if we limit ourselves to fiction writers, I would give the "first 'great'" nod to Samuel Woolley Taylor, who wrote the story that gave rise to The Absent Minded Professor (and all subsequent Flubber stories) as well as the first great Mormon novel, Family Kingdom.
If we mean "most famous-outside-the-church Mormon writer so far," then that would be me - though I am sure to be surpassed, and probably in my lifetime, if only because there are so many terrific new writers coming along.
As to Max Golightly's assumption that the first great Mormon writer would be excommunicated, my answer then and now is the same: The Church doesn't excommunicate people for writing indecorous fiction. People are excommunicated for heresy, grave sins, and for actively working against the Church. If a "great Mormon writer" is ever excommunicated, it will have nothing to do with his writing and everything to do with his voluntary actions vis-a-vis the Church, the doctrines, or the commandments. In short, a faithful, believing Latter-day Saint who is also a writer has absolutely nothing to fear from the official Church.
However, a pretentious snob of a writer who deliberately sets out to offend other Mormons and prove to his intellectual, non-Mormon friends that he is above those ordinary Mormons - HE'LL have trouble, but it won't be because of his writing, it'll be because he has given his allegiance to another set of laws and is obeying another lawgiver.
Max's speculations were a bit melodramatic, don't you think? My impression is that most Mormons have no idea who I am and couldn't care less. A few read my work; a much smaller group has been offended by this or that which I've written. Whatever tempests there might be are definitely confined to various postum-pots.
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If I'm in danger of being excommunicated by anybody, it's the litterati of sci-fi - and I was excommunicated by THEM long ago.
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I haven't knowingly met a Mormon who didn't know of OSC. Maybe I don't know enough Mormons for that?
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: Libbie, who is your father? Nice picture by the way.
My father is Douglas Ricks (also a pretty well-known painter). My grandfather painted the one I linked to - he's Don Ricks. Both are deceased now.
Thanks! I'm glad you like it. They both left behind an impressive body of work. I'm trying to track down as many images of their work as I can. I'd like to do a coffee table book for each one day, if I can.
quote:My favorite Mormon painter is Minerva Teichert who has been an inspiration beyond any current ones. As far as what I consider a good fiction writer, that is harder to find.
yes! Minerva! Amazing stuff, isn't it?
quote:I guess Dagonee and Libbie have brought up an intersting question (even if I think Dagonee misinterprets the discussion). Why should we even care if there are "great" Mormon artists?
On the other hand, there's nothing WRONG with acknowledging "great" Mormon artists. Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: If I'm in danger of being excommunicated by anybody, it's the litterati of sci-fi - and I was excommunicated by THEM long ago.
Well, the joke's on them, then.
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quote: I mean, how many Catholic or Lutheran or Wiccan artists can you name right off the top of your head? Unless they're making a large body of art that's specifically ABOUT their religion, you're not likely to know what an artist's religion is at all.
Exactly.
There are other LDS authors who have published many books and have decent publishing records. You and I might just not know that they're LDS. And, quite frankly, who cares? Not me. A good author is a good author. Or great. Whatever. Depending on your personal definitions of good or great.
quote:I haven't knowingly met a Mormon who didn't know of OSC. Maybe I don't know enough Mormons for that?
I have. Lots. Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots. But then, I'm LDS, and if you're not, then chances are really high that I know way more of them than you do. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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There is a large tradition of LDS visual arts. The church sponsors a contest every few years. Early in the church's history, painters were sent to France on painting missions. And then there's all the musical stuff that goes on.
Now you view can vary on the writing thing. The church runs 3 magazines that people can write for. For a long time poetry and stories were accepted to these magazines. I think the youth magazine takes short stories, but they are definitely morality tales of sorts. Though I recall one about a robot. Cyrano de Cybernetic. It was about the inventor finally having the courage to come out and be himself with the girl he liked. I guess the robot filled the role of Christian. So they aren't morality tales in the extreme sense, they can relate to self-esteem and stuff like that. A for-real morality tale would involve discussing reality in a way that might give people ideas, you know?
There is an ongoing hymn submission program that pays via a foundation left by a church member.
I think in the end Mormons are kind of like the German people. Lots of musicians and some good painters, but not that many writers. My German teacher joked that they try to claim Shakespeare as one of their cultural heroes.
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quote:I guess Dagonee and Libbie have brought up an intersting question (even if I think Dagonee misinterprets the discussion). Why should we even care if there are "great" Mormon artists?
How so?
quote:Mormons have not been 2% of the population since the early 1800s, so all things being equal, you wouldn't expect 2% of the great writers since the early 1800s to be Mormon.
True, but even if we took the 2% at the high end, I don't think there have been 50 "great" American writers, so I don't find it surprising if there has been only 1 great Mormon writer. I don't know how many there have been, except that I know there's at least one - OSC.
The reason I asked how many great writers people thought there were was to get an idea of people's concept of "great." It is, after all, a highly subjective term. If someone thinks there are five thousand great American writers, then it would surprise me if OSC were the first one under that criteria.
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Well, the discussion is actually a rather insular question. Mormons are very self-conscious about their achievements as a group; as is no surprise. With science, law, government, finance and etc. they do a pretty good job of producing some noteworthy individuals.
The reason for this personal success is actually theological. Mormons are always taught to strive for perfection and cultivating talent in order to eventually have a hand in creating Zion. The arts, however, have always seemed to be out of grasp. There are some good painters, but not many that stand out. The more religious the art it seems the less creative. Music is the exception to this, but it has problems. Non-fiction writing has had a horrible track record. Considering the power of the written word (or film as today's medium of story telling choice), such a lack of achievements has bothered many Mormons. Others question if art has any place in Zion other than a pastime.
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About where great writers pop up: it's not even close to random, but it does seem to me it happens at the edges of culture. Same for art. Haitian renaissance (untutored Haitian painters, 1980's): wonderful. Southern renaissance, 1930's, Faulkner, O'Connor, etc. etc.: the NY Times said, why is it that Mississippi people can write so well when they can't even read?
By this measure LDS should present some magnificent talent. But is LDS really far from mainstream? It's a paradox. It seems to me that LDS is in a way more mainstream than mainstream! But if you haven't checked out LDS indy cinema, well, I've seen a couple of gems (out of two movies I saw so far).
I wonder if approbium for iconoclasts (how's that for $5 words) is an issue. An LDS friend of mine told me he was getting grief in his ward for teaching Sun school (whatever that's called) with non-Salt Lake materials, even though they were perfectly orthodox. OK, we get the same thing sometimes in my (Catholic) church, but ultimately we know American Catholics do whatever they want, except possibly in the church building. Maybe too much so. (Then again, are there great living American Catholic writers? Not sure. We sure had some great ones in the past century: O'Connor and Percy. Both lived in areas where they were a minority, and yes, I think that shows up enough it must be significant.)
Anybody read Addicted to Mediocrity by Franky Schaeffer? He argues that it's Christians' own fault we're not wowing the world with great art, because we don't consider it valuable and insist that it be inoffensive, or something like that. (Then again, we *are* wowing the world with great art. Maybe he's wrong. It's just that good artists aren't identified as Christian because their art is of general interest. Card; U2.)
So that might mean that truly great LDS writers won't get no respect in LDS circles -- prophet not honored in his own country, that sort of thing.
But I'm looking forward to a new crop of LDS writers from OSC's classes. Brian, I want an autographed copy of Anxiously Not Engaged -- or whatever you end up calling it!
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Anybody read Addicted to Mediocrity by Franky Schaeffer? He argues that it's Christians' own fault we're not wowing the world with great art, because we don't consider it valuable and insist that it be inoffensive, or something like that. (Then again, we *are* wowing the world with great art. Maybe he's wrong. It's just that good artists aren't identified as Christian because their art is of general interest. Card; U2.)
Like Thomas Kindaid. The man is unabashadly Christian, but his popular paintings are of a very general interest (cottages, towns, farms, babbling brooks, etc.) But that is OK. Most Christians are able to appreciate both religious and non-religious art. In fact, one belief of Mormons is that if there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. This definitely includes secular art in all its various forms.
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This is a huge topic -- one that I am continuously exploring (along with my co-bloggers) at A Motley Vision. So if it's something you are interested in drop by (and dig through the archives because my posting rate has slowed of late) .
But let me just say this in terms of Orson Scott Card:
I don't really care if he is great or not. I find some of his works to be of immense literary and Mormon culture value. But I think that one of his most important contributions to the field of Mormon letters is his example as a professional writer who is also active LDS. As with other emerging cultures, Mormonism tends to be rather anxiogenic about art -- even moreso because it's also a religion. If the only artists' biographies/attitudes you are exposed to is the 'freed-myself-from-religion' ones, then it becomes a bit more difficult to see your way through to a middle ground. Inside of Mormonism, OSC has staked out the middle ground and held it well.
I knew that I wanted to be involved in some way or another in fiction since I was quite young. It didn't occur to think of myself as a Mormon reader/writer/critic until I encountered the work of OSC.
OSC also legitimized the field of speculative fiction as an exciting area where Mormon and Mormon-tinged ideas could be explored -- a work around the perils of the literary fiction market as it were (although he and I differ slightly on the value of contemporary literary fiction -- or at least have different valences in our critic).
I find the reaction among some church members to OSC's work to be a bit baffling. He doesn't receive the respect (and by that I mean critical attention and readership -- not respect in some general 'people have good feelings about him' way) that he should. On the other hand, his influence on my generation of readers, writers and critics is immense.
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The first great Mormon writer was Joseph Smith. He is our cultural founding genius as well as our religious one.
Edit To Add: Heh. Just re-read OSC's post above more carefully and saw that he said the same thing. Well, there's something he and I agree on 100%.
posted
I should also add that Mormon cultural production is in pretty decent shape. All sorts of observers/participants have gripes and anxieties and agendas, but, really, there's some good stuff going on.
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quote:"How So?" Well, the discussion is actually a rather insular question.
Then perhaps you should take the discussion to an insular Mormon board.
As best I can tell, there wasn't a "No Catholics Need Apply" sign on the thread, nor do others seem to think that those discussing a non-Mormon specific aspect are somehow missing the point.
The overall subtext related to why there aren't more "better" LDS writers. The threshold level of better or great and the much smaller pool of possible LDS writers might be enough to explain it. And, if it is, then looking for an LDS-specific reason would be fruitless.
That's not misinterpreting the discussion. That's dealing with an issue at the very heart of the discussion - one that is in front of many of the other aspects on the critical path of the discussion.
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Dagonee, I didn't say "No fill in the blank need apply." I am just saying that your percentage statement does not go at the heart of why the subject is even relavant. I can see your point, but it seems to me not really much of an answer. I guess part of it is my absolute dislike of statistics as a measure of anything.
Now Will B's discussion of the problems of "edge of culture" and "approbium for iconoclasts" was much more interesting to me. It seemed to actually explain a lot. And, guess what, it was as important to the "Mormon literature" question as literature in general. Perhaps the problem is that religious literature, especially focused on positive belief, is simply not interesting? I still see it as an insular question, but it has connections to things beyond denomination which is why I even brought it up.
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If the perceived underrepresentation of group X in class Y isn't real, then analysis about why group X is underrepresented in class Y seems kind of pointless.
For the record, my question wasn't about statistics. It used numbers to ask a very serious and very relevant question: what is the the threshold for greatness?
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Then, for me, numbers have little to do with greatness. Quality rather than quantity is "threshold" I accept. However, to engage your question; Do I think there are 50 great American writers? I can't name them off the top of my head, but I would say there has been at least that many of them - if not more. Some perhaps only wrote one really good book. This is especially the case without genre bias.
For me the question goes deeper than the above. Rather, why does a group that works so hard at achievement (with many recognized succesess beyond population percentage) lack so significantly in a particular field? Especially a field that could build understanding or express self-identity for a group that seeks those things?
In other words, I don't care about the representative numbers. I care about the latent potential.
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The striving for excellence is real. BYU has a bad rap in the pre-med arena because it's medical school acceptance rate is the lowest in the nation - 36% because people don't get that their grades and scores aren't up to snuff. There are incredible people who come out of BYU and I saw a disproportionate number of former Cougars on the program when a friend graduated the MSTP program at U Chicago. So there are the mythmakers out there, but there are also a ton of people who think they are the mythmakers and falling short. The sad result is the pre-med advisor tries to discourage people, and probably a lot of honest people take the discouragement, while the psychotics press onward. I don't know if it's overinflated belief in self, or parental pressure, or misapplied faith or what. But it has been a problem for at least 15 years. [edit] Actually, I thought more about this and the discrepancy is probably due to a lot of mission presidents being doctors (Mission presidents have to be self-supporting financially.), and mission presidents are huge role models for young adults. Added to this is the idea that if you can put "2 years spent serving and teaching people in X less developed country" it will enhance a Medical school application. [/edit]
quote:He argues that it's Christians' own fault we're not wowing the world with great art, because we don't consider it valuable and insist that it be inoffensive, or something like that.
I look at this and I see a relationship to codependency. It's not that Christianity encourages codependency any more that the celibate priesthood fosters homosexuality. It just creates a niche where it can go about it's business without interference. In particular, the "approbium for iconoclasts" would be indicative of codependency.
I don't think this discussion should "perhaps" move to a Mormon focused forum. It is about OSC as a Mormon and an Artist. It is about the tension between being an artist as part of a fold of sheep (the more traditional Christian idea) and being an artist in accord with "Be ye therefore Perfect, even as your Father in Heaven".
I'm not very well equiped to say how many great writers I think there have been. I'd argue closer to the 50 than 5,000 number, though.
I actual dug up this thread to ponder whether Carol Lynn Pearson is considered great by anyone. I don't know what she's up to, the last I heard about her was a performance of "Mother Wove the Morning" I saw when I was in college in the early 90's.
quote:Then, for me, numbers have little to do with greatness. Quality rather than quantity is "threshold" I accept.
I never said numbers have anything to do with greatness, but that doesn't mean numbers have no place in a discussion of greatness. It's clear you understand this, because you're talking about the number of great Mormon artists and trying to explain why the number is as it is.
quote:For me the question goes deeper than the above. Rather, why does a group that works so hard at achievement (with many recognized succesess beyond population percentage) lack so significantly in a particular field?
Again, that's not a valid question if they're not lacking. And, so far, it seems no one offering reasons for this "lack" has really addressed this question. A few people have pointed out other Mormon writers they consider great. A few others have ventured the possibility that their religious affiliation goes unrecognized.
If you don't want to discuss that aspect, fine. But please stop saying my areas isn't as "deep" as the area you wish to discuss or that I've "misinterpreted" the discussion. I simply am not accepting one of you premises at face value and asked for opinions on whether the premise is true.
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I don't have a good answer for what I'd consider a great writer. Perhaps someone whose work will continue to have an impact on future generations? Someone of whom you can say "things were different in a way that mattered after this person did what they did."
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quote:Orson Scott Card wrote: If I'm in danger of being excommunicated by anybody, it's the litterati of sci-fi - and I was excommunicated by THEM long ago.
This is confusing to me. Why would they shun OSC? And in what way? And why would it matter?
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Art based on positive religious belief can be magnificent. (Handel's Messiah; Michelangelo's Creation of Man; da Vinci's The Last Supper; Dante's Divine Comedy.)
However, it can also be very very bad.
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quote:Then I have to say, Dagonee, between us we have nothing to discuss.
Ah, well, somehow I must soldier on. However will I bear it?
quote:This is confusing to me. Why would they shun OSC? And in what way? And why would it matter?
The answer to the last question is, clearly, "It doesn't."
quote:I don't have a good answer for what I'd consider a great writer. Perhaps someone whose work will continue to have an impact on future generations? Someone of whom you can say "things were different in a way that mattered after this person did what they did."
I don't know how to articulate a definition. Off the top of my head, Mark Twain and Orson Scott Card are definitely deserving of being called "great" even if greatness depends on a body of work, not just one. I think Huckleberry Finn and Speaker for the Dead each elevate the author to "great" status if such status can be conferred on the basis of a single work.
Other great American writers? It's hard for me to say. I love London, but I'm not sure he's great. Many of my favorites I don't consider great: King, Sandford, and Spillaine are great storytellers, but not great writers.
There are other great American authors, but I can't make a list without leaving some off, so I'll leave it at that.
I'm pretty sure Mormons are overrepresented on my list, though. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I'd agree that Mark Twain and OSC have a similar aura of greatness. They aren't Pantheon great; they're just clever and lovable at the same time. I remember really liking the memoir about Joan of Arc by Twain during a very dark time in my life, when I had decided God either didn't exist, or hated me.
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All the lauding and revering comes after they're no longer with us, when we can't really see them as "just an average guy" anymore. I think that's particularly true in tighter communities (as in, within a religious community as opposed to the world at large, if you see what I mean).![[Wink]](wink.gif)
