posted
In What civilization does Harry Potter create, Card talks about the basic goodness of Harry's nature. I've been looking a bit into the soteriology of "Traditional Orthodox" Christianity from time to time, and find this an interesting point.
At various times I've tried to argue that Mormons are not as against original sin as I grew up believing, and that mankind is totally depraved.
quote:Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; -Ether 3:2
As I was discussing Card's essay with various family members tonight, I realized that Mormons don't believe we are born fallen, but that we become fallen as we grow into humans (becoming fully accountable for our sins at age 8). We are invited to become as children and enter the Lord's rest (Moroni 7:3).
I don't think Harry's impulses can be viewed as being of one quality throughout his time at school. The whole point is he has been growing in his sense and commitment to truth, love, and moral agency with each volume. When he retrieves the sword of Griffyndor, he is himself remade and from that point forward suffers much less doubt and rationalization, and becomes the "good-natured" soul Card is arguing for.
Immediately he gives Ron the opportunity to destroy the horcrux in the locket, based on his sense (which will recur for the rest of the book) that it is the right thing to do. His instincts serve him in the escape from the Lovegoods. I could be wrong but I think he disarms Draco on the same "instinct".
I think much better than any comparison of Harry Potter to Christ is the comparison of Harry Potter to the individual. We are each blotted with a proclivity for pride, gluttony, lust etc. (Um, how many? Right...)
quote:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. Luke 17:33
In the rolling wave of horcrux and hallows, Tom Riddle sought to save his life, but it was Harry's life that was preserved.
The only thing I don't quite understand (and I'd re-read it if I could get the book back from my child) is how the Elder Wand fits in with the law of love.
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posted
Well, there's always the possibility that it doesn't. I'm fairly sure Rowling wasn't checking to make sure that all her plot points were consistent with Mormon allegory. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I'm fairly sure Rowling wasn't checking to make sure that all her plot points were consistent with Mormon allegory.
I'm fairly sure of it as well.
"Law of love..." What is that, precisely?
I think that the morality displayed in much of Harry Potter synchs with Christianity, but is not meant to be allegorical of Christianity. The beliefs that Potter espouses-- bravery, determination, love, mercy-- those things are valued by most people in the world, whether or not they're religious.
quote:I've tried to argue that Mormons are not as against original sin as I grew up believing, and that mankind is totally depraved.
It depends on what you mean by original sin, and by depravity, and what effects you think original sin has on the human creature in this life.
Mormonism maintains that because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, humans are free from sin until they reach the age of accountability. Original sin, in the sense that all human beings are fallen creatures, and despicable to God from birth, is a false doctrine.
Personally, I do not think that humankind is inherently depraved-- I think we're inherently self-interested.
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posted
Tom, I did not mean any uniquely Mormon law of Love, but in that Dumbledore keeps saying Love is greater than magic. But as I reviewed the story of the 3 brothers, I see that the wand is just more powerful, and is sometimes called the deathstick, but that may be due to it being more powerful than death and not because it's principal purpose is killing.
Original sin is that everyone carries the sin of Adam whether or not they themselves sin.
According to Wikipedia on this date,
quote:"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."[4]
Which is oddly reminiscent of what you just said, Scott.
quote:The Westminster Confession of Faith summarizes the doctrine as such:
"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."[4]
In my belief, man is depraved, but still has a choice about whether to embrace that depravity or submit himself to the fatherhood of God (this is all very close to Mosiah 3 , which if I had checked, supports Scott's statement about the freedom of little children from sinfulness through the Atonement.) Well, that's very interesting. I'll have to think about that for a while.
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quote:In my belief, man is depraved, but still has a choice about whether to embrace that depravity or submit himself to the fatherhood of God
pooka, Do you see all people who don't follow either a) your god, or b) a form of the Christian god, or c) a god as depraved?
If not, why aren't the people who aren't submitting themselves to the fatherhood of God depraved? Why are they, in many measures of morality, on average better than their Christian counterparts?
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posted
I'm using depravity here as the word exists in Protestant theology. I consider myself depraved in this sense.
I was reading a bit on Jewish views of human nature (from jewfaq.org). They go along with this same idea that it is selfishness more than "evil, as in fruits of the devil evil". They talk about how hunger may result in theft, and sexual desire in adultery. The basic drives are not wrong, but they can result in sin. It sounded a bit like a yin-yang view of human nature.
The problem I have with this view is I do think there are cases of actual evil that are not rooted in self interest, like serial-killing.
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quote:pooka, Do you see all people who don't follow either a) your god, or b) a form of the Christian god, or c) a god as depraved?
If not, why aren't the people who aren't submitting themselves to the fatherhood of God depraved? Why are they, in many measures of morality, on average better than their Christian counterparts?
How can you be so sure they don't submit themselves in a way? You certainly can't tell exactly all the avenues an all powerful being might persue to exert influence on the individual. Be it a voice from heaven or a simple ordinary impulse or idea that enters your head.
Also you need to take into account to some Christians and especially Mormons, people do not come into the world as a blank slate. There was development of an unknown length (could be days, could be trillions of years) before we were ever born that to a large degree influences who we are now. Some developed a disposition of absolute godliness before being born and find life on this earth to be very straight forward. Others come here to crash and burn.
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I was talking about Card's description of Harry Potter and his oblique connection to the virtue of Harry's tuition and a popular (within Mormonism) assumption that humans are inherently good.
P.S. I find BlackBlade's god unfair at best. God didn't create us to fail, and he provided an infinite atonement so that all who would repent sincerely may be saved.
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posted
pooka: I never said God created us to fail. If I end up failing its my own fault. God created us all with the potential to succeed (The Atonement) but the capacity to fail. If some people chose to spend their time before coming to earth poorly that is their own fault if they come to earth and bomb the test. God still must provide us with a just opportunity to succeed and let us see for ourselves where we will to go. Try reading God's remarks to Cain about his premortal self. It's not a flattering picture.
Mr S:
quote:Because she's talking about me and I know I don't submit. I specifically, consciously reject your god if he exists. I think he's evil.
1: There is no reason to be so antagonistic, you don't know the workings of God anyway, so what position are you in to judge whether he is good or otherwise?
2: Because you do not know his workings, you can't possibly know whether he works in you or not Mr S. You can say you consciously reject God, but you don't consciously know God in the first place. Until you can actually know what God is doing, a process that you cannot complete without God's cooperation you cannot reject Him. You can certainly live your life in such a way that you are disposed to reject Him should he come knocking.
If you were saying, "She was talking to me...etc" as an indicator that you do not wish me to enter the conversation I'll back out now.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: I was reading a bit on Jewish views of human nature (from jewfaq.org). They go along with this same idea that it is selfishness more than "evil, as in fruits of the devil evil". They talk about how hunger may result in theft, and sexual desire in adultery. The basic drives are not wrong, but they can result in sin.
(FYI: Not "they"; "he." Jewfaq.org has a single author, although of course he uses many sources.)
It's not surprising that Judaism doesn't see evil as "fruits of the devil," given that we see the devil as an angel serving God, not a rebel against Him. To properly serve Him, we must utilize both our yetzer tov (good inclination) and yetzer hara ("evil" inclination). But they must be properly channeled.
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CS Lewis noted that in the final equation, everyone serves God-- specifically he notes that Peter and Christ serve Him as sons; Lucifer and Judas as tools.
quote:There is no reason to be so antagonistic
Mr. Squicky has a good reason to be antagonistic. I don't mind the antagonism-- I think it's a little overblown, but anyway-- but he isn't telling lies about Mormonism, at least.
quote:Do you see all people who don't follow either a) your god, or b) a form of the Christian god, or c) a god as depraved?
For myself, I wouldn't use the word "depraved." To me, "depraved" denotes an act of willful, outright rebellion, and intentional, egregious sin.
I don't think Mormonism supports the idea of viewing individuals as depraved. And one of our most beloved tenants is that everyone under the sun is a spiritual child of our Heavenly Father.
So...depraved, for me, is too strong a word. We are all sinners, and we all need God's forgiveness. But we are also all beautiful, and recipients of His love.
Every single one of us.
quote:If not, why aren't the people who aren't submitting themselves to the fatherhood of God depraved? Why are they, in many measures of morality, on average better than their Christian counterparts?
I really don't know who you're talking about, or what measuring stick you're using to gauge "better."
You could be telling the truth-- but I'd need to know exactly how you're defining "morality."
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quote: The simple solution to using negative characteristics for G-d is to surrender them and/or conquer them in order to better develop the better you within you. The process of eliminating the less positive aspects of our personalities and character in effect demonstrates love to Hashem with even our negative inclination(s) – Yetzer Hara.
A deeper way to understand this concept is not to attempt to do away with our less shining qualities but rather to channel them productively and positively. If one experiences jealousy, let him/her be jealous of genuinely good accomplishments and try to strive to similar heights. If someone covets honor, let him/ her donate funds to a Torah institution and have his/her family name plastered all over the building. All characteristics can be utilized for good if we learn to frame it correctly.
posted
That's interesting-- I think Christianity focuses on eliminating the character trait that leads to negative inclinations.
But I think negative inclinations, or trials, or personal temptations, CAN be used to glorify the Father...well, not the inclinations themselves, per se, but the will to overcome them.
From the Book of Mormon
quote: Ether 12 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
So, while we're not in complete agreement (and why would we be? ), we've got somewhat similar ways of thinking on the situation.
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), we've got somewhat similar ways of thinking on the situation.
