posted
In reading OSC's riff on awful villains deserving to be jettisoned, I realized how disappointing it was at then end of the first two books that Achilles kept surviving. On one level, I know the story expanded in unexpected ways as it was being written. I just wonder if while the story was adapting itself, if Achilles couldn't have died sooner as well. I don't really feel like Achilles contributed that much to the characters, he just wasn't dead yet and the characters had better things to do, I guess. I don't know.
I feel the same about Elemak in the Homecoming series. I guess deep down I'm not a very Christian person. So maybe that should be the point of an enduring villain, because no matter how much you think someone deserves to spontaneously combust from their sheer evilness, they still might repent. I mean, look at Darth Vader, right? Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
The problem is that Sylar had far, far too little character development to make him a truly great villian. There has to be something about the villian that allows us to almost like him. Or outright like him. Those are great villians. Sylar, otoh, had just one episode in which some of why he does what he does was revealed to allow us to grow some sympathy for him. In 22 episodes, that's not enough.
I was very disappointed they left the door open for Sylar to come back. And they hinted at another, even worse, villian to come. Considering how bad they are at building bad guys, I have to say I'm a little scared at what they're going to do next season.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I say the best bad guy is the one that makes you feel as sad at his death as you would if he was a beloved main character.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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pooka, you make a great point. I think one of the things that turned me off about the Shadow series is that annoying character Achilles. It wasn't the only thing of course, but it is very much a turn-off that he is around as much as he is. And the irony of OSC saying what he says about Sylar... lol. I agree with him, but your point about Achilles is spot on imo.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Well, I don't really want to say it's ironic. Maybe OSC's intolerance for villains was a product of having dragged Achilles around all that time.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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well, i'm sure he'll say he had character and added to the story line. I can agree with that even, but with each book after Shadow I kept asking myself when is this creep going to get axed. And when it didn't happen I just got more frustrated. I think the other part for me personally was I just couldn't get into the military strategy, nations fighting over these kids, angle. I know most liked the series, I just couldn't get into it. *shrug*
Posts: 176 | Registered: Sep 2006
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TBH, that Achilles is still alive at the end of Ender's Shadow is the sole reason I've not read any of the rest of the Shadow series. He was annoying and should have died. But he didn't.
Add in that the word of mouth is that he keeps surviving like a cockroach in the later books in the series, and. . . why bother? I've read EG and SftD dozens of times each, so why dilute the awesomeness that they are with "too much?"
Posts: 1323 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I do think Achilles added to the story line and when bean shoots him at the end of shadow puppets i literally stood up and cheered. However I probably would have done the same thing if he was killed in shadow of the Hegemon or enders shadow.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Julian I'd add spoiler warnings seeing as how at least two people have DEFINATELY not read that far into the series.
**Spoiler
I think Achilles' resiliance was properly countered by his abrupt death.
/spoilers.
Also Pooka when I saw this thread I thought you were talking about The Illiad until about halfway down the thread. Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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im sorry I am fairly new to this forum thing. I did not mean to ruin anything for anyone. I just thought I would let magson know that Achilles got what he deserved and that it didn't take away from the series in my opinion.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2007
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My personal preference would have been that once Bean was taken from Rotterdam in ES that Achille was left behind and never a part of the series at all anymore. He was good as a villain for that part of the story, but having him come to the Battle School at all was beyond belief. And then he instantly became a villain, and IMO shold have been killed. Ender got rid of Stilson and Bonzo quickly, why couldn't Bean get rid of his nemesis as well?
Posts: 1323 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Because Ender came from wealth and ease, yet retained a seed of barbarism. Bean came from the urban jungle but is learning to have faith in human institutions.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hmm, yes, now that you mention it I agree about Achillies. But not Elemak. Achillies was about as simple as Sylar, well almost, though maybe I'm misremembering, the second Ender series isn't my favorite (still good though). Elemak has his moments, though he does fall apart in Earthfall. But before then there are times when he tries to do what is right, or if not that, tries to do what is reasonable given the situation he finds himself in. Also, Elemak has a much more interesting relationship with Nafai, Volemak, and the rest of their community than Sylar or Achillies do with, well, anyone.
Posts: 105 | Registered: Dec 2005
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I can see where you're coming from. Achilles was a psychopath, where Elemak was a not so irregular guy in extraordinary circumstances who failed to rise to the occasion, I think. Well, up to the point where he starts having affairs with his step-sisters. There was probably a few times before that when he wanted to kill Nyef for being so insufferably good.
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