Given OSC's two cents on the topic, I thought this might be a good opportunity to find what everybody else thinks about use of the greeting "Merry Christmas" over the more general, inclusive "Happy Holidays."
I understand the rationale behind "Happy Holidays" - being the majority in America, it would be easy for Christians to make non-Christians feel left out through use of the exclusive "Christmas." And, being the minority, it's less easy for them to say "Happy Hanukkah" or "Krazy Kwanzaa" to strangers. Some people could take offense.
Then again:
quote:It's not as if we say, "As you think about the baby Jesus in Bethlehem, and all those slaughtered babies that were left behind for Herod's soldiers to kill after Jesus and his folks got away, and even though these events almost certainly have nothing to do with the 25th of December, have a merry day."
As strange as it may be to say, when considering people of all religions Christmas isn't exclusively about Christ. Though I'm a Christian, I've had occasions to attend Hanukkah-related festivities over the years and been enriched by the warm glow of unity among those celebrating. It may be insensitive for me to say so, but I think even non-Christians get a little residual enjoyment from the celebrations of others. It's a fun time of year, and inviting people to enjoy the special atmosphere, as long as we don't mind it when they share their holidays with us, is part of being a good neighbor and fellow human being.
posted
I say "Happy Holidays" even though I celebrate Christmas. But I celebrate a secular Christmas which means my holiday is filled with Santa tv-specials, a big pagan-inspired tree, and way too many cookies.
My experiences might be different from other because I live in the South. Every year I get chewed out and occasionally yelled at for choosing to say "Happy Holidays." This year, I had to listen several of my Catholic coworkers who complained everytime they got a "Happy Holidays" card instead of a Christian Christmas card. Just think about that for a second: people were complaining because one of our client took the time to sign and send us a card. It just made me feel so frustrated and alone. I certainly didn't complain when we got a baby-messiah card in the mail (we're a government office, btw.)
Personally, I like being inclusive. Growing up as an atheist in Texas with a best friend from a Muslim family, we often felt left out and so I really want everyone to feel involved this time of year. To me, "Happy Holidays" means that no matter why you celebrate, its good to have a time of year to gather with friends and family and just enjoy the festivities.
So "Happy Holidays" is one part good cheer and one part my way of sticking it to self-involved Christians. And recently I've come to resent the fact that I can't even say "Merry Christmas" without people assuming that I'm Christian. I wish I could say "Happy Santa Day" but I don't even want to imagine the threats that would follow.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I've used both throughout the years. However, I've noticed that lately I tend to only use "Merry Christmas" when actually celebrating Christmas itself. I tend towards Happy Holiday's for everything else, because the celebrating encompasses more than just Christmas. There is St. Nick's day for one thing, and New Years, and Holidays that others celebrate that I don't, and then just the general "Yipee, we have days off work" sort of thing. Also, if you put "Happy Holiday's" on your cards, it gives you an extra week or so to send them out! :-)
I'm definitely not trying to take the "Christ" out of Christmas. However, I feel that this time of year encompasses so much MORE than Christmas, that "Merry Christmas" just doesn't really fit all the time.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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..I say Merry Christmas. As a Christian, and as a Human who enjoys this capitalist celebration that brings my loved ones happiness. I say Merry Christmas because I would not tell someone to say Happy Holiday instead of Happy Hanukkah or Happy Kwanzaa. My respect dolled out to other beliefs demands respect to my beliefs. I will say Merry Christmas because that what I believe. Where does it stop? Refraining from saying Happy New Year because theres some people who don't agree with the accepted calender? And in closing, Merry Christmas.
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quote:Originally posted by Shanna: I say "Happy Holidays" even though I celebrate Christmas. ... Personally, I like being inclusive. Growing up as an atheist in Texas with a best friend from a Muslim family, we often felt left out and so I really want everyone to feel involved this time of year. To me, "Happy Holidays" means that no matter why you celebrate, its good to have a time of year to gather with friends and family and just enjoy the festivities.
quote:Originally posted by DDDaysh: I've used both throughout the years. However, I've noticed that lately I tend to only use "Merry Christmas" when actually celebrating Christmas itself. I tend towards Happy Holiday's for everything else, because the celebrating encompasses more than just Christmas. There is St. Nick's day for one thing, and New Years, and Holidays that others celebrate that I don't, and then just the general "Yipee, we have days off work" sort of thing. Also, if you put "Happy Holiday's" on your cards, it gives you an extra week or so to send them out! :-)
I'm definitely not trying to take the "Christ" out of Christmas. However, I feel that this time of year encompasses so much MORE than Christmas, that "Merry Christmas" just doesn't really fit all the time.
I want y'all to hang out at my place, same time, next year. The world has enough of the bitter and the divisive -- I want all the sweet, hopeful, and friendly I can get!
Nice posts.
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Welcome to Hatrack, antronics. I saw your "OSC questions for OSC fans" on [whoops! make that this side] -- fabulous! A pure delight to read such clear and cogent thoughts. I'm always a bit leery of the questions which read as vaguely-disguised homework questions without any personal input or thought by the original poster readily apparent at all.
You are in a different class altogether. It's a welcome breath of fresh air.
So, Merry Christmas, and won't you tell us about yourself? Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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a) Christmas is an excellent secular holiday, just as it was long before that wacky mystery cult came along. b) Ye gods, who cares?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I say Happy Holidays from about midNovember until earlyJanuary as it covers everything from Thanksgiving to 12th Night sometimes even with Jewish and Muslim holidays nestled in there.
For me, a Catholic, there were always a lot of holidays to track and not just Christmas.
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To the op: As we all know, clearly, the Christian Minority in the united states is being so crowded out by the secular and left wing elite, that the idea of christmas is under constant attack and must be saved. Plus, everybody loves an underdog.
So as you go on your way griping about how a) the "left wing" media does not represent the vast majority of "middle-right" America, and b) the beliefs of Christians and their right to say "Merry Christmas," which is a religiously based greeting is being stomped out, even though c) Christians are still a majority, and a vocal majority in our great country.
How about atheist's right *not* to be subjected to the same boring bogus claims every year by a bunch of overwrought worrymongers? There's no danger of that ever being granted, thankfully.
Though I must say that it's certainly nice to, in a time of such wonderful good cheer, get this barbed jab in the rib from an old friend with a positively *awesome* sense of humor.
quote: As you drink yourself to oblivion in a dark saloon with atheists and unfaithful husbands who got kicked out of the house because of what happened at the office Christmas party, loathing everyone around you who believes in either God or Santa Claus, try to be merry.
No, I don't believe that comment is at all indicative of malice. Not in the slightest. Seriously.
Here's an insane and wacky thought from a totally fringe liberal type: Say what you'd normally say. I know! It's nuts! You don't have to say either Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas! You have the options of hello, goodbye, good day, Have a Good One, Screw off, I hope you die, and a range of good and ill-intentioned things in your lexical arsenal. In this wondrous time of year, you can say *any* of them!
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Orincoro, I hope you didn't think I was explicitly endorsing "Merry Christmas" as some sort of preferred greeting in response to an imagined secular conspiracy to eliminate Christmas. Anybody who gets too worked-up about the prevalence of "Happy Holidays" is probably a bigot.
My point coincides more with OSC's - "Merry Christmas" doesn't need to be a negative thing, as with any other greeting. It doesn't really matter what you say - the sentiment behind it is more important. I've used both greetings and think the big "controversy" is pretty much manufactured by uninformed traditionalist "opinion leaders."
Posts: 127 | Registered: May 2005
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The sentiment behind OSC's article was that atheists are nature's equivalent to unfaithful husbands. He can never get his point across without giving at least one large group of people an elbow in the mouth. He is a tiny bit subtler than the Rush Limbaughs of the world, but that doesn't make him any better or any righter for saying hurtful things just because he can.
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Yes, but I've ragged on OSC often enough for that sort of thing that I decided to cut him a break on something rather trivial.
EDIT: Though the "atheists and unfaithful husbands" thing is plainly just a caricature, concerning the over-the-top nature of the preceding paragraph. It's more obnoxious to do the whole "boy, what I just typed would REALLY offend some people, huh?" shtick.
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It's a little ironic for OSC to come off so "brazenly" anti-PC when he edited the use of the N-word out of his first (very) successful book years after it was initially published, so that he could get it off the s-lists of librarians throughout the nation. Yes, OSC really sticks to his guns against PC BS.
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Orincoro, are you referring to the YA edition or something? I have a fairly new softcover printing of Ender's Game and it's fully slur-tastic.
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Yeah. The YA Edition of Ender's game didn't just remove the racial slur, it removed several other words generally deemed inappropriate for that audience.
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I think a more important question than which greeting is more appropriate to say, Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas, is why does either one offend anybody at all.
Why isn't anyone offended when happy new year is said? Why isn't anyone complaining that a person at the office wished them a happy Hanukkah? Why do some people feel that Christmas is being pushed down there throats and not, say, Kwanzaa? It's because they are exposed to Christmas more, because it is practiced more widely in America than any other religious holiday. In fact the exposure (unwanted or otherwise) is only natural. It is the offense taken to it that is unnatural.
Conversely it is unnatural to take offense at the greeting Happy Holidays, except when the term is used as an exact replacement to Christmas. For example in retail advertising. When "Happy Holidays" is attached to a picture of presents wrapped up under a tree, and Rudolph flying gleefully over chimneys with eight other reindeer and a fat reverse burgler in tow, it becomes obvious that the phrase is used as a blanket to cover butts, not multiple holidays. It can't be that retailers are afraid of offending consumers, because most of there revenue in that season comes from Christmas shoppers, not Kwanzaa or Hanukkah or Ramadan. Maybe they are afraid of a backlash from a very vocal minority, saying that they are bigoted for marketing to the majority of their customers?
So when Happy Holidays is used as a blanket term for multiple holidays, it is appropriate. When it is used as a substitute for a specific holiday, it is offensive to the practitioners of said holiday. Since Christmas is the only holiday that Happy Holidays is actively being applied too it is reasonable for people who celebrate Christmas to be upset. And the more religious you are the more meaning Christmas has to you. If you only celebrate the secular side (which overlaps very much with the religious side, with generosity and compassion and love and togetherness being the main themes) Than it matters less what it's called.
Posts: 278 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by String: Conversely it is unnatural to take offense at the greeting Happy Holidays, except when the term is used as an exact replacement to Christmas. For example in retail advertising. When "Happy Holidays" is attached to a picture of presents wrapped up under a tree, and Rudolph flying gleefully over chimneys with eight other reindeer and a fat reverse burgler in tow, it becomes obvious that the phrase is used as a blanket to cover butts, not multiple holidays.
I don't think I agree. The picture you've painted here is a representation of the secular Christmas, to which the secular greeting is appropriate. In such a case I don't see where the greeting "Happy Holidays" replacing "Merry Christmas" would be any more offensive (to those celebrating the religious Christmas) than the cartoons of Rudolph and Santa in replacement of a nativity scene.
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Merry Christmas just means Merry Christmas Sean, whether you are celebrating the birth of Christ, or just getting together with your family and doing other traditional things, secular or religious. Christmas is celebrated as much secularly as religiously, as I can say with some confidence that even the most devout religious people still celebrate the secular aspects as well. However everyone knows that even those traditions are done in celebration of Christmas on Dec 25th. To pretend that these traditions apply to any other holiday at all, and thus apply a plural phrase like Happy Holidays, insults the intelligence of all parties involved. A Muslim who sees picture of a frosty the snow man, or rudolph, or any other secular icons of Christmas, still knows that they are icons of Christmas, and that his holiday is in no way represented by it. So by all means if you are talking about Christmas, say it.
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I try to tailor my seasonal greetings to the person who will be receiving them. Like gifts, it makes sense to take the desires of the recipient into consideration when bestowing wishes.
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Well that's you, I on the other hand, give out gun magazines, communist manifestos, the Book of Mormon, and little bottles of liquor to everyone. I wrap them all together in a little care package and say Merry Holidays!
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well that's you, I on the other hand, give out gun magazines, communist manifestos, the Book of Mormon, and little bottles of liquor to everyone. I wrap them all together in a little care package and say Merry Holidays!
posted
The problem is. what does "Merry Christmas" mean? I haven't said it in awhile but I do tend to ask my friends how their Christmas was after the fact. And when I do, its an invitation to hear about a variety of events like whether or not they curled up next to a fire, what presents they got, if they enjoyed a big meal with their loved one, and so forth.
But for other people its a celebration of the birth of a baby Messiah.
The issue is that there isn't really a greeting to distinguish between the two holidays: the secular Christmas and the religious Christmas.
When someone say "Merry Christmas" to me, I don't know which celebration they are referring to. Why can't there be a greeting for those of us who love our big, bright trees and hang our stockings on the fireplace without trying to pretend that it has any relevance to a baby being born in the desert 2000 years ago?
I tested something last week just to gauge the reaction I would get. I wished everyone a "Happy Hanukkah." Logically, you should alter a well-wishing to the needs of the recipient. But I have people telling me to have a blessed Christmas, so I was curious to see how people would react if I tuned into my Jewish ancestry when making my holiday greeting.
Thankfully, the experience wasn't entirely negative. I was wrapping a gift for a customer who positively beamed when I asked her if she was enjoying her Hanukkah celebrations. Others laughed at me, some with a confused grin while some did so maliciously. I had atleast two ladies who got very upset with me. I love parts of living in the South, but the lack of diversity and the self-involved, holier than thou attitude wears especially thin this time of year.
I find the whole thing alittle silly. Here are lines and lines of people buying their Rudolph books and wearing their Santa sweaters, and yet they get mad at me for not assuming that they are the Messiah-worshipping type of Christmas shoppers.
Sure, 68% of shoppers would rather be greeted with "Merry Christmas" but don't they see the hypocrisy of whining about the "war on Christmas" while simultaneously buying into the consumerism. And not just the consumerism, but the entirely mythology of Santa Claus and flying reindeer as if they naturally belong alongside the nativity scene. They hijack the holiday from the pagans and then personally run it into the ground.
I just don't understand what is SO wrong with "Happy Holidays?" Maybe its too ambiguous to be the best greeting for this time of year, but its the one that caught on. And for those of us who don't need a religious reason to celebrate, "Happy Holidays" is really the only greeting we have.
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Shanna, I don't think that there needs to be two separate greetings for a secular Christmas and a religious Christmas. Christmas is as much traditional and cultural as it is religious, and substituting a specific greeting with a generic one is insulting. If someone told me to have a happy Hanukkah, I'd say thank you. Like wise Happy Holidays, I just assume it means Happy Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years all rolled into one. It isn't when people say Happy Holidays that bothers me its when it is used as a generic substitute for Christmas. It's culturally depriving.
Posts: 278 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Shanna, I don't think I could live in the South, where matters of pride and identity get people that much more riled up. The evangelical attitude stresses me out, as well as American exceptionalism. Then again, Utah is pretty secure in its religious identity (a religious majority does that to you), so most people would probably take a "Happy Hanukkah" as a joke.
Posts: 127 | Registered: May 2005
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I say "Merry Christmas" to people I know and to people who say it to me. If I'm in a store or something I'm more tempted to say "Happy Holidays" but it really isn't a big deal to me either way. I think it's ridiculous for people to get offended over either phrase.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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All right: "Have an enjoyable period of sunrises and sunsets lasting for a duration of your choice, unless you are masochistic, in which case I would exhort you to have a miserable one. Mentally adjust for any insensitive imbalances in the previous statement."
Posts: 127 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't say "Merry Christmas" anyway. If I'm wishing someone something in regards to Christmas I say "Happy Christmas." Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I think it's pretty silly when someone says to another "Happy Holidays" as a personal gesture, because unless they're black Christians (and celebrate Kwanzaa) or children of a Jew and a Christian (not too uncommon where I am), the individual recipient of the wish probably only celebrates one holiday.
When a store says "Happy Holidays"on a banner, I'm annoyed because everyone knows they mean Christmas (the big money-maker, and that's what the stores care about, right?), but since it is aimed at the general public, which collectively celebrates several different holidays, it's much more tolerable than if someone I know says it as a greeting.
I generally don't tell anyone I don't already know "Happy Holidays," but then I don't work as a store clerk. I gladly wish my Jewish friends a happy Hanukah, and have even participated in their festivities (who am I to say that the miracle of the Maccabees' lamp was illegitimate?) , and I wish my Christian friends a merry Christmas. If I don't know a friend's religion (an extreme rarity), I will simply wish them a good day, and avoid reminding them of "holiday stress." Usually when I'm in a situation that is inherently festive, it's holiday-specific.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I tend to stick to "Have a great day!" And sometimes "Have a good holiday!" I avoid "Merry Christmas" not because I have anything against it, but because I just don't really like it. I don't know why. I'm not "offended" if someone wishes me a Merry Christmas (or a "Blessed Day"), but it seems like it's kind of a secret handshake thing.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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So I was at Barnes and Noble today and they had the Christmas stuff marked to 50% off (as well as some other stuff.) But the sign said, "Childrens' Holiday Books-- 50% off!"
The problem was, there was not one Hanukkah book on the table (or anywhere in the store except for on the "religious children's books" shelf), and the Kwanzaa books were in a separate display but were full priced. For that matter, there was a Thanksgiving book still on the shelf, also full priced.
That, to me, is wrongful (and misleading) use of the word "Holiday."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Liz B: Uh...New Year's Eve/Day?
I tend to wish people happy holidays right before we leave for winter break.
Even in my homogenous neck of the woods, that encompasses at LEAST two holidays.
Christmas.
New Year's.
One.
Two.
Thus the plural.
I guess I'm not much of a New Year's person. It's generally the time we say goodbye to the extended family we get together with for Christmas, which is not so easy to celebrate as Christmas, which to me is a special time set aside devoted to the joy and peace of the coming of the Messiah. Contrast the universal tidings of great joy for all people, to the changing of the calendar, and New Year's seems very dwarfish. Pardon me for thinking so, but pretty much every Decemberish holiday of any major religion (plus Kwanzaa) is much less transient, and much more significant, than the cycle of the calendar.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:So I was at Barnes and Noble today and they had the Christmas stuff marked to 50% off (as well as some other stuff.) But the sign said, "Childrens' Holiday Books-- 50% off!"
The problem was, there was not one Hanukkah book on the table (or anywhere in the store except for on the "religious children's books" shelf), and the Kwanzaa books were in a separate display but were full priced. For that matter, there was a Thanksgiving book still on the shelf, also full priced.
That, to me, is wrongful (and misleading) use of the word "Holiday."
Since I work at a B&N, I wanted to address this statement.
We have the exact same sign at my store on our Kid's front octagon display. These signs printed up and distributed to every store. They're all the same.
What ISN'T the same is the inventory carried by each store. I checked out our "50% OFF Children's Holiday" display and found not only books about the secular and religious Christmas, but we also had several Hanukkah books, lots of winter books that were all about snow and not any particular holiday, and several books and plush left over from Thanksgiving. We got this list right after Christmas and since Kwanzaa doesn't end until January 1st, it wasn't on the list. I don't know if they have plans to send out a separate project for those books now that the holiday is over, but we don't carry a huge selection so most of it will either be shipped back to the vendor or reshelved.
The store you visited may have already sold-out their Hanukkah merchandise. Its also possible that they are marked to carry x-number of certain titles year round and therefore didn't have enough extra available for discounting. Also possible that they were reshelved incorrectly by any number of the seasonal or new staff members that almost all stores have this time of year.
Christmas is the biggest holiday for shoppers this time of year so yes, alot of our discounted product is Christmas-related. They want the product there in case it sells, but if it doesn't, it just means we have more to get rid of.
So the sign is right. Just something to consider before you go making it look like some big retail conspiracy or some other nonsense.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Personally, as an atheist, i don't have a problem with people saying 'Merry Christmas' to me. I always say greetings along the lines of 'Have a good Winter Break (instead of Christmas Break)' and 'Happy Holidays.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2008
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