Or just search on these words: “Séance in Methodist Church” There are numerous web page entries.
As you read this account of what happened in a Methodist Church a few days ago, consider these words written by Ellen G. White, whom most Seventh-day Adventists regard as having been a prophet:
“The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.”--The Great Controversy, p. 588. 1911 edition. (Same words are in the 1884 edition.)
This is generally regarded as being based on Revelation 16:13, 14
Jan. 15, 2018
“Dr. Melina Abdullah — a professor at California State University who also leads the Los Angeles chapter of Black Lives Matter — recently summoned the spirits of several deceased people to fill a Methodist church with ethereal energy, including Martin Luther King, several other slain civil rights leaders, victims of police brutality, and an African warrior named Shaka Zulu.”
Note that the audience participated by chanting "ASE" as the professor leading the séance did her invoking and poured water into the potted plant beside her.
Protestants in America are vulnerable to this kind of deception because of their general belief that human souls are naturally immortal, so that the dead are not really dead and sleeping in the grave awaiting the Resurrection--as the Bible teaches--but still have conscious existence as disembodied spirits.
"He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, WHO ALONE HAS IMMORTALITY...." (1 Timothy 6:15, 16; NKJV)
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I find myself wondering if Ron thinks Martin Luther King, Jr. actually showed up, and if there's scriptural evidence that such an event could take place.
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I doubt that Martin Luther King Jr. actually showed up. But in the future, if churches allow this spiritualistic error to continue, a demon masquerading as Martin Luther King Jr. could appear, to led the gullible astray. Especially gullible are the people who previously professed agnosticism or atheism. Those who deny the supernatural are the most easily brainwashed when something truly miraculous happens right before their eyes. But even those who profess Christianity would be hard-pressed to resist such a deception, since it is right in line with the pagan error about the state of the dead that so many churches have embraced for a long time. I'm just trying to warn people about what prophecy reveals is coming.
Revelation chapter nine details the release of demons from their present state of restraint (the "bottomless pit"), and their subsequent appearance as princes of the churches to deceive multitudes and finally lead them into an all-out war to eradicate from the earth all those faithful to God. It is the persistent rebellion of the people of the world against the authority of the Creator, that leads Him to relax His efforts to protect humanity from the demons exiled here on earth with us, so that He tells His faithful angels to stand down and allow the fallen angels (demons) more freedom to do what they will (see Rev. 7:1-3; 16:13, 14). This is what causes the release of the demons from the bottomless pit.
[ February 19, 2018, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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Demons are for anything that will harm humans. If they cannot destroy all humans, then their plan B seems to be based on the hope that if they can get enough humans to join with them in rebelling against God, then God will either have to destroy most of humanity, or else forgive the demons and allow them back into heaven if He is going to forgive humans. That did not work with the generation in Noah's time. God did go ahead and destroy all humanity except for eight people.
Socialism of course is one of Satan's favorite tools for causing strife and misery. Socialism is based on coveting the possessions of others. It is the cause of most crimes, and the cause of all wars of conquest (once a government runs out of other people's money to spend, it has to try to loot neighboring nations). This is why God made prohibiting coveting part of the Ten Commandments. (See Exodus 20:17). And since 1 John 3:4 gives this definition: "...sin is the transgression of the law"--that means that socialism is based on sin. This in turn is why communist governments have always espoused atheism. They have to, because Biblical religion cannot be harmonized with any form of socialism.
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Nothing like a little thought crime when you want to toady up to your heavenly dictator, Ron.
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Anyone who thinks socialism is even remotely something good, should go live in Venezuela, and see how well socialism works.
I am aware that diehard socialists will claim that pure socialism has never been tried. But in fact communism is socialism taken to its purest extreme. Look how well that worked for Russia and eastern Europe! Look how communist governments always have to guard their own populations, to keep them from escaping.
The fact is that socialism in any form has never worked anywhere at any time in human history. Anyone who disagrees needs to cite an example.
Some will point to the community spirit that existed in the New Testament church. But that communality and sharing of goods and wealth was voluntary. Socialism has never been voluntary--it always has to be imposed by force, because it is so contrary to human nature.
Socialism does not create wealth, it only divides up the wealth that already exists. Capitalism does create new wealth. That is why it will always prove superior. All of nature is capitalistic. Plant a seed, get a harvest that is multiplied one hundred fold. Reward people with the earnings of their own labor and ingenuity, and they are motivated to continue producing more for everyone. Those who invent new things are rewarded. This is how reality works.
Demons--fallen angels who rebelled against God--hate us because God created humanity to serve as exhibit A in His dispute with Satan who charged God with being unjust and unfair and selfish. Of course demons encourage gullible people to fall for the enticements of socialism, because they know nothing could ruin us more.
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I’m not wading in to your mire of nonsense about what you perceive as socialism. By thought crime I meant that according to your beliefs, God frowns upon or even punishes thoughts. Thought crime. Slavery, in other words.
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Ron: All of nature is capitalistic? The parasites would like to have a word with and lunch from you.
The exploitation that exists under capitalism is a perfect mirror for nature, which is why human beings must pursue their better natures not their ugly ones.
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quote:Socialism does not create wealth, it only divides up the wealth that already exists. Capitalism does create new wealth.
I want to address just this specific claim -- because I think it's important to understand neither socialism NOR capitalism create wealth. Both are distribution systems for wealth created by labor.
In a socialist system, agents of government distribute wealth produced by labor according to some sort of criteria -- whether it be to the laborers whose work produced the wealth, or to the corrupt oligarchs who own the government, or to the most desperately needy. In a capitalist system, those who are legally identified as providing the seed capital for labor can decide for themselves how much wealth they keep, and do so with the support of government.
There are virtues to each approach. But NEITHER actually creates wealth. LABOR creates wealth.
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God is a capitalist. Earth is an LLC (limited liability creation). The whole enterprise is underwritten by Satan who will manage assets through receivership if necessary.
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(Admittedly there was a Chapter 7-9 bankruptcy already and, later, a large scale restructuring to better indemnify against potential losses. But, much like Trump, God is overall yugely successful.)
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Capitalism is where ambitious projects are capitalized, in the hope of future gains from the investments.
Labor cannot create wealth unless it is given something to create. That requires invention and investment capital.
JanitorBlade, parasites are an aberration, a corruption of nature. They are failed symbiotes, that killed their host. Even disease organisms operate on the capitalist system, until their host dies.
scifibum, I like what you said, except the part about Satan underwriting creation. "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth....He spoke and it was done. He commanded, and it stood fast." (Psalms 33:6, 9) God creates all resources. Satan has nothing to contribute.
Jesus seemed to favor capitalism in his parable of the talents. (Mat. 25:15-30) He praised the stewards who invested their master's talents and gained an increase, and condemned as unfaithful the one who just buried the talent he had been given in the earth.
kmbboots, European socialism still works because it still has capitalistic elements at work. But the nations of Europe are in a downward spiral. Several of them are past the point of bankruptcy, and have to be bailed out by the wealthier nations. Not all the nations of Europe have yet spent all of other people's money, but they are getting there. Then they will either collapse, or feed on each other. A lot of "spin" must be applied by apologists for European socialism. It is tragic that Europeans have largely failed to learn the lessons they should have learned from the disaster of the German National Socialist Party--otherwise known as the NAZI party.
Just compare the healthcare system of Canada to that of the USA. As badly as Obamacare mucked up our system, many Canadians still come to the USA to have operations, because they don't want to have to wait in line for three years. In America, if you have a medical emergency, hospitals will treat it, and worry about financing later. In Canada, if you don't have the money or sufficient insurance, they will refuse to treat you. I can cite a specific case of a friend of mine who was injured in a car accident (broken neck). They were going to ship her home even though moving her would have killed her. Fortunately her husband was a doctor, and they had extra insurance--double what most people have. So they did treat her. But they were not allowed to under Canadian law, unless they had the financing. They told us that.
The inherent cruelty of socialism is concealed by the people who are trying to sell you a bill of goods so they can take control of everyone's lives.
[ February 21, 2018, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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TomDavidson, you are the one who got this thread off into a debate about socialism!
Doesn't it bother anyone that a mainline Christian church was countenancing a seance as part of its church service?
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If I got upset whenever Christians engaged in senseless and deeply stupid spiritualism, I would walk around covered in hives all day.
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"Labor cannot create wealth unless it is given something to create. That requires invention and investment capital." Yes, so you agree with me. Namely: labor creates wealth. Sometimes it does that through pure invention. Sometimes it does that through uncapitalized work. Sometimes it does it with the assistance of investment capital.
Capitalism is a system by which individuals provide investment capital and negotiate with the threat of legal enforcement for the share of profits from the labor assisted by that capital. It does not create wealth; it can, at best, support labor through investment. In the modern stock market, which offers perverse short-term incentives for high stock valuation at odds with long-term corporate health, this can actually impede the creation of real wealth.
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"I can cite a specific case of a friend of mine who was injured in a car accident (broken neck). They were going to ship her home even though moving her would have killed her." I am very curious about these details, Ron.
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Tom. I must respectfully disagree totally with your definition of capitalism. It is true that invention is 5% genius, and 95% perspiration. But how much new wealth is a ditch-digger really creating? The construction worker could not do anything without blueprints to go by.
My friend was driving with my (now) ex-wife through Canada. It was a ladies only vacation they had planned in Boston. They were taking a short-cut from the Detroit area to New York through Canada. As they went through a mountainous area approaching Hamilton, Ontario, the large trailer they were pulling started wig-wagging back and forth. Apparently the highway was NOT banked going around big, steep turns in mountainous areas like they are in the USA.
My wife was driving, and feeling she was losing control, she did what she had specifically been told not to do, and slammed on the brakes. The SUV and trailer promptly flipped over and rolled down the embankment. My friend's neck was broken in three places. Fortunately the Canadian authorities had a rescue squad deployed and ready less than a minute away, because they had had so many wrecks there. They got to my friend and had a neck brace around her promptly, so miraculously she did not become a quadriplegic, then took her to the main hospital in Hamilton. I was called, and I went with my friend's husband to meet the ladies in the hospital. The doctors told us they would not treat Dawn unless they were assured she had the financing to pay for it. They told her husband he would have to transport her back to the USA if he did not have sufficient insurance. Fortunately he did--as a radiologist in a Detroit area hospital he had $300,000 coverage, which was enough, along with the $200,000 coverage my wife and I had. (My wife was a nurse, and I was just a computer programmer.) So the doctors went ahead and used bones taken from elsewhere and a metal shunt or two to fuse her neck vertebrae. That worked, though it left her unable to turn her head. Then her husband had to hire at his own expense a helicopter to fly her back to the U.S., before the insurance money ran out. He also had to pay for surgery on their dog, to repair a broken hip, when they got back in the U.S. Fortunately their daughter who was riding with them, was not hurt.
You compare that to any American hospital. People admitted to the emergency room are treated. Period.
[ February 21, 2018, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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The ditch-digger is creating as much wealth as someone is willing to pay to have a ditch dug. Creating blueprints is also labor. Inventing is labor.
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If that is a true account, you should have sued. Canadian hospitals and doctors have the same legal and ethical duty to provide emergency care that US hospitals do.
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kmbboots, I am afraid what you claim reveals that you are unaware of some of the harmful effects that socialism has on healthcare in Canada. Canadian hospitals are absolutely not allowed to treat non-citizens unless they can prove they have sufficient financing. That is the problem with socialism. Not only do you eventually run out of other people's money to spend, you also cannot possibly afford to spend money on anyone who is not a citizen.
The doctors explained to us that they were LEGALLY NOT ALLOWED to give care to non-citizens unless financing was assured.
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quote:The construction worker could not do anything without blueprints to go by.
But the blueprints themselves were almost certainly produced by an architect providing paid labor to the capitalist who will be receiving the lion's share of the profit from the enterprise. That the blueprints are intellectual labor doesn't mean they're not labor; they're still just labor backed by capital. And remember: the only real distinction between a capitalist system and a socialist one is that, under capitalism, the suppliers of capital stipulate the amount of wealth returned to them.
As a side note, I once broke my leg while in Canada and uninsured in the United States, and they gave me painkillers, set my leg, and put it in a cast for free. I got a bill for $25 (American) for some X-rays three months later. Although this was over twenty years ago, they were socialist at the time.
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The parable of the talents is honestly one of those things that strongly, strongly suggests to me that the authors of the Bible didn't always know what kind of message they were aiming for. I mean, it reads to ME like a deeply subversive critique of capitalism, but I know a lot of people who use it as an argument FOR the prosperity gospel. I guess it depends on whether we're meant to believe the third servant's assessment of his master's character or not.
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What is commonly referred to as "the Prosperity Gospel" where if you are religious, God will prosper you, is not anything I would agree with as being Biblically sound. The Bible does encourage the exercise of wisdom in business endeavors, which includes informed and reasonable risk-taking. It does not encourage presumption.
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