posted
Did y'all hear this show? Scroll down about 1/3 of the way and there's a link called "Mormons in Nauvoo". I don't know how to link to it directly. (Anybody know how to do that?)
Why are LDS in the media always portrayed as though we are some strange sect? It seems like since the U.S. movie and TV making industry is based in the west, where it's perfectly normal and ordinary to be LDS, that it would not be so. Of course, NPR is based in D.C., where I suppose it is uncommon.
Can you imagine a story like this about Catholics traveling to see the site of some apparition of the Virgin Mary and some of the locals saying, "Those Catholics are trying to TAKE OVER! It's us or them!"? <laughs> And the story didn't even make the explicit point about the similarity of attitudes of the original mob and these people. I couldn't tell if that thought was in the minds of the editors or not.
It's not that the story was favorable or unfavorable, it didn't mention anything bad that any Mormons did (other than exist in numbers larger than some of the locals were comfortable with). I just thought it was odd how they acted like it was strange to be Mormon.
What do you guys think?
Egalitarianism is flatly opposed to Mormon ideology? <laughs> No dissent is tolerated? Who are these people? Joseph Smith's descendants would be ridiculed and called names in school? Mormons are cattle thieves and just "bad people"? City council members say "there's a plan by the Mormons to take over", "they're smiling at us like 'we're going to have all of this someday'". <laughs> Beware of Mormons who smile.
EDIT: I wonder why it's vidEo and audIo? <laughs>
[ December 02, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
I haven't checked out your link, but I would say that, in my experience, your statement that "it's perfectly normal and ordinary to be LDS" in the West is not necessarily correct. The movie industry is based in California, as is much of the television industry. Mormons are not considered particularly mainstream in any of the parts of California I'm familiar with. That's not to say that most people think Mormons are crazy or dangerous, but I have always gotten the impression that most people see Latter-Day Saints as more on the fringe.
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posted
I think it's a little funny that the modern residents of Nauvoo are so surprised and annoyed that decendants of the people that founded the city (since Nauvoo was founded by early Mormons) would want to visit or live there. I would like to think that there shouldn't be any tension between Mormon and non-Mormon residents. I guess whether there is or isn't is up to the people themselves.
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posted
I think they mentioned the tension because they didn't want it to be a total fluff piece or be percieved as Mormon proganda. In order to get the other side, you need an issue that has sides. Apparently the momentary qualm of discomfort on the part of about 500 people before they take the money of these Mormon pioneers qualifies. *laugh*
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posted
There are Pilkingtons buried in the old pioneer Nauvoo cemetary, and during my own pilgrimage last year, I looked up and found the plot where the Pilkington house stood.
The funny thing is that the dates of death are from 1855 and 1860. Ten years after the exodus to the west. Ten years! I'm related to the ones that stayed behind! Great! I find my in-at-the-beginning ancestors, and they're the slackers! From the stories, they didn't join the other branch - they just didn't go west.
I come from a long line of luke-warm Mormons, I think. *sigh* Usually active, but not, say, hyperactive. Or particularly sober.
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Edit: *looks around wildly* Wasn't there a post here? It was a good one.
posted
I heard this on my way to school this morning!
I don't think it was neccessarily biased, just a little uninformed. At one point the interviewer asked, "you realize that if you made these comments about any other minority group you would sound like a bigot?"
Overall, I think it was an interesting piece. And even negative press is good press as far as interest in the church is concerned. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I wish they'd had a few more voices from Nauvoo residents. I didn't think it was much of a cross-segment.
That was an interesting mention of how a building had been built from the stones of the Nauvoo temple (which was burned down by the mob that forced the Mormons out), used by the Catholics as a school, and then bulldozed for a Mormon vistor's center. Strange twist of events.
I can see why residents might get a little mad at the Mormons for overrunning the place, although all the visitors and tourism sure seems to be revitalizing the town. Hope they get used to it. Them Mormons ain't gonna be leavin' anytime soon.
I got a sense that the Mormons were perhaps treating Nauvoo as theirs all over again, which is what got local residents mad at them in the first place when they moved into Illinois and Missouri. Although this time they've got some good PR people to smooth things over. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:You DO think that God lives on another planet with his wives, right?
Yeah, and thinking that God is three beings in one who exists everywhere and nowhere is, like, not weird at all. Posts: 276 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I had a friend once explain to me the atonement as a man sacrificing his son to save the ants in an ant farm. He was arguing against the Mormon idea of "eternal progression" by saying that the more insignificant people are, the more significant it is that God would think of us enough to sacrifice Jesus for us. At least, I think that is what he was trying to say. Just while we are on the topic of theological view points that can be made to sound weird.
I don't blame the residents of Nauvoo for feeling like someone was opening a Walmart just outside of town (culturally if not financially). I know the Nauvoo Family Inn would refer their overflow business to an inn in IOWA when there were still rooms available in Nauvoo. I surmise this based on the fact that when I drove in at 5:45 to go to the temple, I saw a motel with a virtually empty parking lot. It did not make me think unchristian thoughts at the time, but when I later found out the NFI was under new management I thought "Good."
What Nauvoo really needs is some kind of daycare set up. Going to the temple was nice, but it would have been better with my husband.
posted
My personal view on Mormonism is the same as it is on any other religion: whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to sink mine or anyone else's. (Course, I'm not a huge fan of the whole missionary thing in general, which is something about Mormonism and many other religious groups that rubs me the wrong way. But that's beside the point.)
However, I do think that for the most part Mormons are see as a fringe group. There's just not that many of you, to be honest. But I think one of the biggest reasons why Mormons are seen as "outsiders" is because of the history of polygamy. Obviously everybody here knows the church condemns polygamy now, but when you learn about Mormonism in history class and when you hear about it from parents or people who aren't as familiar with it, it's polygamy that's used to differentiate Mormonism from other religions. People may not jump straight to hating Mormons, but they'll probably think, "Ewww. Weird." It's that 'weird' factor, in my opinion, that makes people view Mormons as a fringe group. Swearing off alcohol, coffee, and tea doesn't help either -- alcohol is a staple of the social lives of the majority of Americans, and taking it away means that social interactions, while they may not be limited persay, are certainly changed. And coffee is an integral part of every office in America.
I'm not saying these things are bad or wrong -- alcohol causes tons of problems and caffeine sure isn't all that good for you. What I'm saying is that Mormons reject some of the things most Americans take for granted -- coffee, cocktails, monogamy -- or people think you do, regardless of the true nature of that rejection. I think that many non-Mormons don't see Mormons as bad, or evil, or threatening....mostly, they think you're just a little bit weird.
But I love you all!
[ December 02, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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posted
Just a little hint the title should be spelt Audio that means to hear. Audeo means to dare, so it's not quite the same thing Don't mean to derail the thread.
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posted
The admiration of folks like Howard Hughes and Ross Perot doesn't help our palatability much either.
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posted
If I understand correctly, the number of Mormons in this country recently surpassed the number of Jews. It seems Jews get more respect than Mormons. Am I wrong (as it is just my perception)? Any Jews care to comment? Of course, there are all those conspiracy theories that the Jews control the country, etc. Of course, Mormons control the FBI and CIA . Maybe Jews and Mormons are in cahoots?
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I don't feel too bad about Mark Twain. He had a witty mouth and low tolerance for human frailties, but he was a very, very unhappy man for most of his years, especially towards the end. It's no mistake that his best books are about children and are drawn from his childhood years. The adult material is bitter in the extreme.
posted
"I do think that for the most part Mormons are see as a fringe group. There's just not that many of you, to be honest."
An 11 million member fringe group!
"And coffee is an integral part of every office in America."
Not at Nu Skin Enterprises in Provo, Utah! People keep their coffee to themselves around here, if they do drink it. Which is too bad--I love the smell of coffee.
"It's polygamy that's used to differentiate Mormonism from other religions."
Abraham...Jacob...David...Solomon. Shared by a few religions, and polygamists all. What differentiates Mormons is that they have practiced it more recently.
Actually, I would have a hard time accepting polygamy as well. If I weren't a Mormon, boy, I'd have my doubts about them.
"What I'm saying is that Mormons reject some of the things most Americans take for granted -- coffee, cocktails, monogamy..."
Do Americans really take monogamy for granted? I think more Americans nowadays take not bothering to get married at all for granted, and having as many partners as they please. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I saw an argument written by an apologist for Islamic polygamy, and while I don't agree with the practice, I loved this argument (I don't support the practice because I DO believe in sincere monogamy - one, just one, all your life):
It is better to keep the first wife and marry a second younger wife when hitting middle-age success than divorce the first one and force her into poverty in order to marry that second one. I don't think America in general supports monogamy. I think it is perfectly fashionable to support polygamy - it just happens generally one at a time, and the overlap is secretive.
posted
Haha, the only problem with all this is that you grew up with Mormons and are approaching the situation rationally. The majority of Americans have neither of these things going for them . Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:said: Can you imagine a story like this about Catholics traveling to see the site of some apparition of the Virgin Mary and some of the locals saying, "Those Catholics are trying to TAKE OVER! It's us or them!"
Yes, actually. You think the KKK had large chapters in Oregon because of all the blacks that live there?
posted
In my former downtown Salt Lake City neighborhood, a branch was trimmed off a tree. The running sap was thought by some to resemble a figure venerated by Catholics. The local Catholics have built a set of stairs leading up to the new relic and put a lot of candles around. It came up once in Sunday School as an example of something we wouldn't worship that others do. There was a bit of paranoia in the discussion. Just a little "how would you feel?" moment.
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Y'all should feel proud. After a fruitless search on google, I've concluded the imaginations of the countless conspiracy theorists are nothing compared to some of the minds here.
You'd think with all the conspiracy sites devoted to Catholicism, Judaism, LDS, Illuminati, Freemasons and the like, someone would have stumbled onto a joint LDS-Jewish conspiracy. Apparently, the limited minds of some of the finest conspiracy promoters out there cannot conceive of two or more of their paranoid fantasy organizations joining forces.
One good thing - checking out a few of the conspiracy sites put me back in touch with what "fringe" really means. Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sorry - didn't take note of specific sites. Just used google and typed in things like "Jewish Mormon Conspiracy" - I suspect you would find very scary stuff using the search term "zionist" in place of Jewish - scarier, that is.
A couple of sites collected the stuff and ridiculed the garbage - those looked cool.
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posted
I heard the report and it was a little strange, but I don't really think NPR was trying to spin it particularly. For example, the reporter DID point out to that woman that her opinions were bigoted. And she agreed. They were.
Well, here's the real problems:
1) Property values are at record highs -- a good thing if you own land already or are coming in from outside. Bad if you are just graduating and want to stay in town.
2) Unemployment is down -- tourism has created jobs serving the 1 Million (plus) visitors each year. These are necessarily low wage jobs (mostly) but it sure beats the surrounding areas which are still in the throes of an economic depression.
3) The town's 1000-or-so residents are mostly Catholic. They aren't really happy with the thought that their town council may someday soon become predominantly Mormon. They have been fed tales, no doubt, of how the ousting of the Mormons was justified because of polygamy, the autocratic ruling style of Joseph Smith (he ran the town, the militia, etc.), and even some exagerations about crime problems in the bad old days. The bottom line, though, is change. Small town America doesn't like change.
4) The Mormon leader that they interviewed was particularly "oily" sounding. He used the Rumsfeldian "answer my own question" style of talking. It was unnerving, really, to hear a guy saying things like: "Are we going to take over?" No. "Are we here to be friends?" Yes.
Yuck! Who talks like that? It's just creepy!
Oh well...
I think there's a lot of poetic justice here. Having been "burned out" of the town in the 19th century, the Mormons come back in the 21st century as prosperous as all get out and ready to just buy the town back, if necessary.
There's a fair amount of resentment that would come your way just for being wealthy tourists, honestly. Ask any of the service workers who live in the Orlando/Kissimmee area. It's pretty easy to build up a resentment towards the "invaders" no matter who they are.
The ignorance of what it means to be Mormon in today's world is just compounding the problem for these people who are caught up in a whirlwind of change.
Most of the people they interviewed had some fairly kind things to say as well. Just about likes the jobs and the higher property values, in general.
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quote: The town's 1000-or-so residents are mostly Catholic.
quote: Small town America doesn't like change.
No one likes change that they haven't invited. If ten million Mormons started swamping Orlando and it looked like they were going to over-run the city and town council, I would be really unhappy, too, just like I"m sure Mormons in Salt Lake City would be unhappy if a ton of Muslims or Catholics or whoever came and looked like they were going to make them irrellevant and politically powerless.
posted
This is like the Mormon version of slashdotting. Pick a town, everybody move in, now we control the government.
Seriously, I think it's more of a problem with the way majority rule works. This is not a hostile takeover. Just a majority shift.
But hey, I mean, come on, it's Nauvoo, and they just rebuilt the temple there. It was a huge event in the Church when they announced the temple rebuilding. It's never been "if," but "when" the Church returns there.
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quote:pooka said: The running sap was thought by some to resemble a figure venerated by Catholics. The local Catholics have built a set of stairs leading up to the new relic and put a lot of candles around. It came up once in Sunday School as an example of something we wouldn't worship that others do.
They were not “worshipping” the relic. This is a common misconception about Catholics - that we “worship Mary” or are “idolaters.” Please see this and this for a decent overview.
posted
You know it's nice that we are reclaiming part of our history, but it'd be nicer if we weren't so damn smug about it.
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quote:The Mormon leader that they interviewed was particularly "oily" sounding. He used the Rumsfeldian "answer my own question" style of talking. It was unnerving, really, to hear a guy saying things like: "Are we going to take over?" No. "Are we here to be friends?" Yes.
This is actually a rather Mormon way of answering questions in some situations. Why? Because Mormons hear particular criticisms over and over again to the point that they know what is coming and simply answer the questions before hand. Its more about frustration than "oily" presentation.
quote:You'd think with all the conspiracy sites devoted to Catholicism, Judaism, LDS, Illuminati, Freemasons and the like, someone would have stumbled onto a joint LDS-Jewish conspiracy. Apparently, the limited minds of some of the finest conspiracy promoters out there cannot conceive of two or more of their paranoid fantasy organizations joining forces.
People just don't give Jack Chick the credit he deserves.
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posted
I think the Mormons have been less than PR enough for far too long. On the other hand, no one seems to be listening one way or the other, so does it really matter?
Ana Kata, your frustration is nothing new. Its not so much that Mormons would like to be liked, although that would be nice for a change, as much as simply be heard. At times I just don't think that is possible.
quote:I'm not saying these things are bad or wrong -- alcohol causes tons of problems and caffeine sure isn't all that good for you. What I'm saying is that Mormons reject some of the things most Americans take for granted -- coffee, cocktails, monogamy -- or people think you do, regardless of the true nature of that rejection. I think that many non-Mormons don't see Mormons as bad, or evil, or threatening....mostly, they think you're just a little bit weird.
This brings up a few questions. Are Mormons really that different? Should Mormons really care? Is the United States really that homoginous of a society?
posted
Actually, her response was more along the lines of "Yes they're bigoted and I don't care."
Which was really interesting and frustrating at the same time. She was obviously upset with the changes her town was going through and was ready to blame the Mormons for it all. As well as discount all the benefits (like jobs and a solid real estate market).
I don't know how common her viewpoint was, but I do understand a bit of where she might be coming from. Even if Mormons weren't buying up the town and were just visiting in the millions! I mean, it's like an invasion when the hordes of tourists arive. Assuming you have the same type of high & low/ boom and bust cycles throughout the year as places like Orlando and Vegas do, there are days where it seems like the townfolk are outnumbered 10 to 1. And that's probably true. Any given Saturday during Summer or spring break, I bet there are 10,000 tourists in town and only 1,000 residents.
It's easy to build up resentment quickly when your town is stretched to the breaking point like that. And then the hordes are gone and what do you have? Slowdowns. No money. It's a horrid existence relying on tourists for your livelihood.
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posted
Thinking about it logically, you're right. I just still find it very frustrating in this case. Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I've always wanted to research my ancestors' land in Nauvoo and see if they were able to sell it and at what price before they fled Nauvoo. If they were unable to sell it or at an artificially low price I would reclaim the land! Actually, I wouldn't as those who currently live there probably had no connection whatsoever with those who occupied the land after my ancestors fled. However, in our sue happy society I'm sure many groups would (or at least try) if they were in the same position.
Will Mormons take over Nauvoo? Probably over time. Being a beautiful spot with a Temple and historic connections it is really a given. Heck, I wouldn't mind living there if I could make a living. Do I feel sorry for the current residents? Yes. However, there is no intent to "take over" in any malicious way despite what it may feel like for those current residents. Would there be a Nauvoo if it weren't for the Mormons? Probably would still be a swamp/marsh. The very name given to the city by the Mormons still stands.
I guess what I am saying is, the current residents can either live with the changes or move. Mormons now have the freedom to move there unlike the lack of protected right to stay there originally (though the freedom was supposedly there). There will be no forced expulsion this time. Hopefully the Mormons will be good neighbors but there will probably be a few bad apples as there are in any group.
posted
You know, given Nauvoo's fear of losing to the "Mormon Invasion," and that Libertarian plan to take over New Hampshire, I'm half-tempted to try to find fifteen or sixteen people like me and move to a small town somewhere, where we'd completely dominate the school board. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Ooo, ooo move here! We could take over the city council in a year. I was almost roped into it this year, but I dodged. I might still get stuck on the library board, though.
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posted
We could change the name to Hatrack River, and it would be sunshine and lollipops every day.... Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:It seems like since the U.S. movie and TV making industry is based in the west, where it's perfectly normal and ordinary to be LDS, that it would not be so.
I don't know if it's perfectly normal and ordinary to be LDS anywhere except Utah and Idaho. It's individually pervasive and it's substantively different. Not a small differences, but a huge self-selecting ones that can't and should not be ignored. Judaism is the same way, but the LDS church has a lot working against it. The media, and for that matter the non-LDS American public, is going to be incredibly skeptical of any religion that believes in secret practices. I don't think it matters how rational the explanation, or how many leaks are rampant on the Internet, it's principle. Anytime the media talks about the college greek system and the various lodges, they go right at the secret rituals and assume the worst or use their imagination. But a satyr? It's not sexy because it's not hidden. The cultural inclinations of Jews may be substantively different than your American WASP, but gone are the feelings of secrecy or cabal.
Southern California just realized that it can't marginalize latinos, the LDS aren't even close. As an aside, to minority communities, the lds has a recent legacy of institutional, systematic, Voux Deux racial discrimination which isn't exactly the easiest PR problem to fix.
My answer is easy: The church should pump extraordinary sums of money into public works. Libraries, schools, hospitals, parks, etc. I mean getting membership can help, but gaining members isn't going to make you seem less weird. It's just going to seem like a fringe group that's gaining more members. *thinks* During the American Revolution, a full fifth of the people living in the colonies were black. 20 percent. That's huge, and you think the LDS have a marginalization problem. Public works, Public works, Public works. The temples are beautiful, but they just serve as a reminder of your otherness.
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I find my in-at-the-beginning ancestors, and they're the slackers! From the stories, they didn't join the other branch - they just didn't go west. ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Don't mean to derail the thread.
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