posted
What are you supposed to tell one of your best friends when her mom decides she doesn't wanna pay for college anymore because her daughter kissed a girl and she is an evil horrible sinner? I am so mad, but I have nothing to say but "grr." Posts: 252 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
"Oh, well. You might as well just go ahead and sleep with her."
Sorry. j/k.
Seriously, sorry for your friend. Never easy when people come out to unsympathetic parents. There should be a gay/lesbian student club of some kind that will give her a hand and provide her with emotional support if nothing else.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
the weird thing is, this girl has always been boy crazy. We have decided the other girl must be a man in disguise, because she swaers she's never even had a crush on another girl. But it really annoys me that her mother is basically saying that she is a horrible sinner but her mom is not exactly being a good Christian herself by doing this. She reads her daughter's diary and had a "lawyer friend" find out that she went on a vacation over fall break to visit her (then) girlfriend. I mean is that even legal? ARGH!
Posts: 252 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Well techncailly you can't advise the mother to do anything but what kind of punishment is that to stop someone's education because of their view on love? If she was actually worried about her daughter's future she wouldn't do that.
Posts: 4628 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
What sucks is not the money part (okay, that sucks too), but the part where her mother invades her privacy and sics a "lawyer friend" on her. Also, the harsh words. Don't like that either.
I just hope your friend can repair her relationship with her mom.
I advise your friend to a) find counseling for herself (not because of the lesbian stuff, but because of her issues with her mom, and just because it's a good idea) and b) go apply for financial aid.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Well I knowing the situation, I think that I personally would just accept the mother's position as unchangable, however bad that is. This is just me but I really don't think she'll change her position on it.
So really she can either break up with her girlfriend and repair her relationship with her Mom or she can say that she doesn't want her Mom controlling her and then go look for financial aid. It's not a fun (or fair) situation, but I think she has to decide which bond means more to her. It sucks.
posted
ohhh I want to hit someone! Hobbes should get online! why am I so emotional over this, I have my own problems too. *sigh*
Posts: 252 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
What's ironic is, this mother no doubt votes against homosexual monogamy because homosexuals are just so unfit to be parents.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
No, the irony is that lesbianism is not a sin by Judeo/Christian/Islamic scripture. Nor can any passage be interpreted that way, not even by the twisted means used against gay males.
Which means that at best the mother is an idol worshipper: ie she worships a deliberately ignorant twit masquerading as a preacher powerful enough to put words into God's mouth.
posted
Gimme a break, Lalo. Unfit to be a parent? At least the woman saved to be able to pay for her daughter's college, which is more than I can say for my own, otherwise very excellent, parents. I don't agree with her telling her daughter that she's an evil sinner, largely because I don't think that's particularly productive, kind, or loving. But I don't disagree with her for withholding her monetary support when her daughter makes lifestyle choices she disagrees with. It's her money, she can do with it whatever she wants, as long as it's legal. Children aren't entitled to a college education courtesy of their parents.
raven, I'd just sympathize and then try to turn the conversation to figure out what she can do to get college funded. Getting into the whole lesbian kiss, mom-called-me-evil, etc argument isn't very productive and doesn't help your friend rebuild her relationship with her mother (if that's even what she wants to do). It's an unfortunate situation, and ultimately, the real problem is that she may have to scramble to get money for college, or go into debt to do so. Really, she has a great opportunity to show her mom what a mature young woman she's become, and with time, patience and a very mature attitude, Mom may soften and open the purse strings. If she throws a fit and acts like an entitled child (which she could legitimately feel like, since she expected her mom to pay, and now she can't count on that money -- I'd feel pretty miffed too, no matter what the reason), Mom is more likely to just feel like her decision was correct, and keep the wallet closed.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Given my nephew's situation is somewhat similar, though not related to an issue of romance choice, I know how horrible this can be. It's very easy to say "its the mom's money she can do what she wants," but when parents start paying for college kids make plans around that. Kids who otherwise would be working a job or working more at their job would instead plan on not having to cover that extra or total amount so they involve themselves in school activities, extra classes, etc. It disrupts their entire way of life when a parent makes a fickle decision based on outdated stereotypes to alienate their own child. Having the cost of college immediately dumped on their heads just for punishment comes fairly close being an unfit mother, but I guess not all the way there.
Did the mom break the law? no
Should the rest of her kids be taken away? no
Is she a close-minded dinosaur who does not respect the independance and judgment of the child she raised? yes
quote: quote: ------------------------------------------------- What's ironic is, this mother no doubt votes against homosexual monogamy because homosexuals are just so unfit to be parents. -------------------------------------------------
Gimme a break, Lalo. Unfit to be a parent? At least the woman saved to be able to pay for her daughter's college, which is more than I can say for my own, otherwise very excellent, parents. I don't agree with her telling her daughter that she's an evil sinner, largely because I don't think that's particularly productive, kind, or loving. But I don't disagree with her for withholding her monetary support when her daughter makes lifestyle choices she disagrees with. It's her money, she can do with it whatever she wants, as long as it's legal. Children aren't entitled to a college education courtesy of their parents.
I agree, it's absurd that people believe homosexuals are unfit to be parents based off the sexual equipment of their significant other.
And while this woman may not be an unfit parent (in the social services sense) for jeopardizing her child's education based off prejudices against the girl's significant other, it makes her one hell of a bad mother. How pathetic is it to endanger your kid's college degree because you wouldn't date the sexual equipment she's dating? It's rather the equivalent of revoking promised tuition because she doesn't like the kind of car her date drives. Neither the car nor the penis (or lack thereof) of her daughter's dates matter a whit in judging who the daughter is as a person -- and if this woman's a pathetic enough mother to not only condemn her daughter for not dating certain types of sexual equipment, but to ignore all their years of history together and judge her child's worthiness based solely on that ridiculous standard, I'll stand by my statement. She is not a fit mother.
Should kids expect college tuition from their parents? No. But, from what Raven was saying, the mother was perfectly happy to continue paying for her daughter's education. Promising to pay for your kid's tuition, then yanking it, is dishonest and reflects badly on the parent, not the kid -- when you promise to pay for your child's education, you're making a commitment your child has every right to expect you to uphold. While the child certainly doesn't have a legal case regarding her tuition, it's damn petty and pathetic of the parent to pursue such immoral methods of forcing their kid to date penii.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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ravenclaw, I am so sorry, that's absolutely disgraceful!!
I wish I had something helpful to say, but I don't know of anything that would be of any value to you, so I'll have to stick with: I am so so sorry about your friend!
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Lalo, she's fit to be a mother. The fact that she saved for her daughter's education and is willing (was?) to pay for her daughter's college is outstanding.
She's also a "close-minded dinosaur who does not respect the independence and judgment of the child she raised" as BrianM said. But if she dedicated that much to her kid before this, she may be willing to work through this in some way. Refusing to continue to pay for education might've been a gut reaction that she'll come to regret.
She is STILL fit to be a damn mother. There are so many true ways to eff up as a parent that make you unfit, that this one is NOT one of them.
It's workable. It's a forgiveable sin. She may come around yet, the groundwork is there.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
maybe it had something to do with the daughter taking the trip. I mean, how does that fit in with the financial picture? My mom wouldn't help me visit a boyfriend over the holidays when I was in school. But copper wire was invented when some dropped a penny between my parents.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Sounds like a worried parent, more than anything else.
I get the feeling that the whole picture is not being presented.
First: Ravenclaw admits that the girl in question was boy crazy. How boy crazy? Was she sexually active before college?
Second: Her mom hired a 'lawyer friend' to check up on the girl at fall break. Is the girl already in college? Is the mom already spending money on her college education?
How are the girl's grades? Does her mother feel like she's living up to her educational potential?
It's very easy to call the mom an intolerant, ignorant, horror-- and some of you have done that, I see-- but we don't have but one corner of the picture, and not nearly enough to make a judgement.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:First: Ravenclaw admits that the girl in question was boy crazy. How boy crazy? Was she sexually active before college?
No, no she wasn't.
quote:Second: Her mom hired a 'lawyer friend' to check up on the girl at fall break. Is the girl already in college? Is the mom already spending money on her college education?
Yes, she's in college and the mother is paying for it (as of right now). I think the girl used her own money to pay for the trip but I'm not really sure.
quote:How are the girl's grades? Does her mother feel like she's living up to her educational potential?
I can honsetly say that grades are not the issue here.
posted
My, aren't we living in the age of entitlement, Lalo and Brian.
Presumably the girl knew how her mother felt about homosexual behavior. She made a choice. That choice had consequences. You make it sound like the mother is bad for breaking a promise -- kindly remember that the girl also broke a promise by making a choice that she must have known her mother would vehemently disagree with. To me, if you're living on the kindness of a person's generosity, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do something to piss them off.
That is not making a judgement about how good or evil homosexuality is -- it's a statement of responsible behavior when one is still a dependent. The daughter was essentially saying that she could make her own adult decisions, and the mother was essentially saying that she could do so, but not on her dime.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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"Mom: You know you can only go to college with my help if you refrain from bi-sexual or homosexual expereinces.
Daughter: Alright its a deal."
Yeah, I'm sure that conservsation took place and was legally transcripted.
It's not so much entitlement as the mother going out of her way to step into her daughter's life to alter and support then removing that support for something that she probably wasn't clear about it. Sure, maybe the daughter knew how her mother felt in general towards that kind of thing, but the daughter also probably thought that the mother really loved her and didn't think the mother would relate to more unlrelated things like college and relationships. If the daughter knew that her mother was that biased and that willing to hurt her own family over such an issue do you really think she would have risked it? Jeniwren, how do you feel about divorce laws? We are not a cave man society where people can just walk off after being involved in someone else's life. If your husband divored you would you expect alimony? Even if you wouldn't that is your establised right if he has been supporting you in your marriage significantly.
This is not the age entitlement, this is the age of social responsibility.
It's basically the same as a mother doing this to her daughter for dating a black man, which I've seen plenty of asian mothers do. It's not against the law but it is a horrible example and to do this as mere punishment and coercion of your adult child is sheer ludicrous in today's modern age. We are not living in the 50s anymore.
posted
Does it matter that my parents threatened the same thing when they found out that I'd been intimate with my college boyfriend? My dad also called me a "slut".
They used the same arguments as jeniwren. And I cannot fault the idea. However, it is an extremely hurtful thing to do.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Jenny, if mothers wish to act in that outdated and archaic of fashions then why not let the outdated and archaic rules of alimony apply as well. Given the overwhelming theme of community value and familiy ties emphasis I've been hearing on this site in Hobbes's thread I'm sure all of you can understand where the greater good lies in this case.
posted
I think Brain and Jeniwren are looking at this in two different (both basically correct)ways. Brian's saying that this is a very hurtful thing to do and Jeniwren's saying the daughter has a clear desicion to make and now has to deal with it. The contract may or may not be fair but it's the one she's got. Or at least that's what I think she's saying...
posted
Well, I thought we would look at the situation from the way it mattered most in basic sense to the most hurt parties involved: financially. Wouldn't you agree that in this day and age that if you go out of your way to support someone close to you financially and then don't make a formal contract about it that you submit yourself to certain concessions about continuing support? It should apply to both sexes, however, unless the wife is rich it usually only applies to a man funding his wife. I think it should be more fair for situations like this.
posted
Brian, there are a lot of people on Hatrack who actually agree with you on family values topics. However, we view this forum as the Card's living room, and while we might politely disagree we try not to go out of our way to insult people who believe similarly to our hosts either. (All right we bitterly disagree at times... just do a search for homosexuality threads.) At a certain point you have to say, x is what you believe and y is what I believe, but we can rub elbows and co-exist in the same society. That is really the entire point of Hatrack in a way.
As far as college education, I firmly believe no parent is obligated to pay for their kids education. If I hadn't gotten the scholarship I did, I would have probably joined the military in order to get them to pay for my schooling. Unfortunately you can't qualify for need based college loans with out them looking at your parents income until you are 25. The government is actually expecting parents to pay a lot more than most of them can afford. So you either, join the military, go to school slowly and work at another job on the side, get a scholarship, or ask your parents for money.
Because my parents are extremely controlling much like the mother mentioned above, I would have sliced my own head off before asking them for money. I'm probably too proud as well, but it is definitely possible to do college without your parents. And college means more as a result when it is coming out of your pocketbook rather than your parents.
posted
I don't understand, when did I insult someone. I called a position outrageous, because I thought it was then explained why. Perhaps that is still too much for this board?
quote: It's basically the same as a mother doing this to her daughter for dating a black man, which I've seen plenty of asian mothers do.
This seems a little ironic. I'm asian. Does that make me more racist that others?
Brian- as a general rule, it is polite to let know what you edit. I don't always, but it depends on whether you add or delete significant content someone may have already replied to. Or just fixed a mispelling.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
That was not polite. You are taking an antagonistic tone in the argument. There is no reason for it - it is possible to discuss an issue with someone who disagrees with you without assuming thw worst. Please stay here, and be polite to those you encounter.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
See, I find jeniwren's insinuation that the girl should accept responsibility for her decision to be homosexual far more annoying than Brian's assertion that the mother is being petty. Likely because I agree with Brian and I don't agree with Jeni. But hey, at least I recognize my bias.
That said, you really should tell people what you changed with your edits. Be it spelling or something over-the-top insulting or whathaveyou.
Edit: Yes, I know that she may not be homosexual, but it seems that that's what it's about. It doesn't seem to be an issue of he kissing someone, it's an issue of who she decided to kiss.
[ December 01, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I guess I was tying two threads together. The thread where the mormon church's hierarchy is discussed is more where I felt you crossed the line. I am not LDS nor do I ever intend to convert, but I watch their discussions with interest because they are an integral part of this board.
You refused to take the female LDS members at their word when they said they truly believed that the hierarchy structure is correct with logical thought-out posts. You don't have to understand it or even agree with it, but you have to take them at their word that that is how they truly feel, and not say that they are uninformed about it.
You could say all religion is irrational I guess because a "higher authority" of whatever is invoked. But once that higher authority is invoked it would be logically inconsistent for a beliver to go against it as well.
from the other thread
quote: If you expect me to gain credibility by accepting the differing opinions of others as facts with which to discuss things based upon, then that is a ridiculous expectation
The LDS members on the board gave you direct quotes from their documented sacred teachings, and those are the facts that they are basing their lives on. You may think they are only opinions, but they are refering you to their final reference on the subject, that you are then declaring invalid because of a "power structure" that they believe is God-given. What more can they do?
I also happen to know that quite a few of the female LDS members on the board have careers that are very non-traditional, though a lot have chosen traditional paths as well and you are making sweeping statements about people you know nothing about. Some have even chosen to leave carreers mid stream to go to a more traditional lifestyle, not because of their religion but because of their own personal choices of what is best for them. Is staying at home and being a mother truly devaluing, compared to a career?
This is just my opinion, and I don't mean to offend but I think you should try to understand where some the other people on this board are coming from, and trying their darndest to explain before you make sweeping statements about them en masse.
I believe she is dealing with the reality of the situation, what IS rather than what we would all like it to be. She stated previously
quote: At least the woman saved to be able to pay for her daughter's college, which is more than I can say for my own, otherwise very excellent, parents. I don't agree with her telling her daughter that she's an evil sinner, largely because I don't think that's particularly productive, kind, or loving. But I don't disagree with her for withholding her monetary support when her daughter makes lifestyle choices she disagrees with. It's her money, she can do with it whatever she wants, as long as it's legal. Children aren't entitled to a college education courtesy of their parents.
If you are doing something you know darn well your parents disapprove of and they are the controlling types who would remove financial support (my parents were) and you still want the money, you either make sure that there is ZERO probablity of getting caught or you don't do it. If you think there is say a 70% chance of not getting caught and a 30% chance you might, then you have to realize that you might genuinely lose financial support and have a contingency plan in the offing.
If you do get caught then you have to face the consequences, and should be prepared in advance, just in case. If this mother is paranoid enough to hire lawyers, I woud assume the daughter had an inkling of it before hand and the odds of her getting caught were extremely high and the lesbian behavior was extremely risky, in a non-STD sense.
Once you aren't dependent on your parents financially then you are an adult and free to do whatever you wish, without breaking major laws. This is exactly how I have lived my life. I could not be myself while I lived in my parents house and was dependent on them financially. If you realize that they will not allow you to express your full personality, then your only option is to become independent from them financally as fast as possible.
Edit to add. In my case that meant I didn't date ANYONE (male or female) because my parents were so paranoid about any guy taking advantage of their sweet little girl. It was extremely difficult to even make friends they would approve of because I was the only girl in most of my community college science and engineering classes.
posted
The more I think about this, the less surprised I am that the daughter is having trouble sorting out her identity, both with respect to gender and her responsibility to her own support and education. The mother hires the lawyer, on the one hand implying "you are still my dependent" but then yanks the funding "I will not be responsible for you".
I know she (the mother) is trying her best and all, but if I were the daughter I would drop out of school and work and save for a while, and figure out what I want to do. If it were me, I am probably majoring in something only for the mother's approval which is why I feel she should pay for it. If it were me.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Hobbes, you understand me pretty well, yeah. I do think that what the Mom said was hurtful, and (most importantly) damaging to the relationship.
Jenny, do you think you would have felt better about it if your parents had said something like, "Honey, we love you and are happy to see that you have decided you're ready to be an independant adult. We don't agree with the way you've chosen to assert your adulthood, but that's really your business now and we wish you the best with it. Since you're taking on adult responsibilities, we won't insult your declaration of independence by continuing to pay for college. Good luck with it! We're very proud of you for taking this on so young." I suspect you would have still been mad, but you'd have gotten over it. The real hurt was not that they withdrew financial support, but that they were insulting and vengeful about it.
Brian, there are implicit and explicit contracts. In any relationship, there are lots of implicit contracts that are never given full voice, but are generally understood by both parties. For example, I did not sit down with my son when he was two and say, "Honey, I will cook for you and provide your basic dietary needs, but I require that you be grateful, which means you may not say ICK or throw it on the floor. Further, if you wish to have your food provided for you, you must eat at least most of it." Yet, today, he understands quite clearly that if he complains about the food I've fixed, I will take it away and he can try again at the next meal. He doesn't, btw, miss many meals. He missed a few when he was younger, but he's a smart kid and caught on pretty quick what the contract was. I cook, he's grateful. We're both happy.
One of our contracts is that I chose to have him, so I get to provide his basic needs until he's out of High School. After that, the contract gets renegotiated, and I'm sure that some of the finer points will be implicit. The main jist, however, will be that as long as I'm happy with how things are going, he'll get my financial support for college. Since he already knows pretty well what makes me unhappy, the finer points are already well understood. He also knows that I'm not a capricious provider -- I only take away privileges when those privileges teach bad things. Like "if you throw food on the floor, mommy gives you more food." Or "if I make adult decisions, I don't have to be personally responsible -- Mom will keep giving me money like when I was a kid."
Marriage is a different case entirely. Both parties are fully functioning adults (presumably), entering into a lifelong covenant. I don't disagree with alimony if the situation warrants it.
If I understand you right, you're saying that if an adult person is providing financial support for another adult person, they are morally obligated to continue that support no matter what, even if the dependent person breaks the implicit or explicit contract, presumably until the contract is complete or into eternity. To me, that's just nutso. Which isn't to say that if you've created a dependent situation, you should just cut them off abruptly when you get mad.
With this daughter and her choice to explore lesbianism, if I felt it was important to withdraw my financial support, I'd probably give her a month or two more of living expenses (no tuition, though), then it off, giving her full warning of the impending end. And then I would do it, no excuses, no changing my mind. Otherwise the lesson in personal responsibility is lost entirely.
edit: replaced "legally" with "morally" in bold above.
Also, Banna has exactly the point I was trying to make.
posted
Jeni there are just a couple of clarifications on your very well written comment.
#1) As party to a contract, I do not have the opportunity to add conditionals to it as time passes. In other words, if at you childes 10th birthday, you decide that the child must not only appreciate you cooking, but must promote it as "The best food ever made" and demand the child start immiediately, we would all agree that demand was accessive, and unfair for the child will miss a few meals until they know what they are supposed to say.
#2) There is the question of Choice when it comes to Lesbianism. Many people argue that Lesbianism and homosexual love is an emotion, and emotions are not things that can be regulated. Now, assuming that this "Kiss" never went any further, what the mother is asking of her daughter is "don't fall in love while I'm footing the tab." If you met the love of your life in College, could you have refrained from seeing them socially? Could you have refrained from giving them a small kiss?
I think most of us agree that a mother can do what she wants with her money. More importantly, I think most of us agree that the rift this behavior has caused between the mother and daughter is a tragedy, and one that could have been avoided.
Many religious people use the phrase, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." I believe that this is a great place to use it. I hope your friend remembers that she can Hate her mothers biased, reactionary behavior, but still lover her for the caring person she is.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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1.) If I suddenly took a notion to be worshipped by my son, I'd let him know before putting the plate down that I expected his verbal adoration at every meal. I don't think I could do it with a straight face, but I think I may try it tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.
2.) The validity of homosexual feelings isn't really at issue here. It's the behavior. I don't imagine that this mom would have been any happier if her daughter was doing the quarterback of the football team. I love what my pastor once said about feelings and thoughts: "You can't help if a bird flies over your head, but you can keep it from building a nest in your hair." You can't help the onset of an emotion or thought, but you can decide not to dwell on it, to draw your thoughts elsewhere (like homework... ). And you can definitely decide whether or not to kiss someone.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
When you claim someone as an economic dependant, or if you are in a relationship to someone who is dependant or provider, there are certain obligations you cannot ignore. Because the mother did not stipulate terms actually works to the moral and legal benefit of the daughter in that the mother has provided a standard of living to be available to the daughter and is revoking it for something not understood. You can say all you like about what is implicit but many would argue those things should be just as implicit in marriage law but we can see that it isn't. Anulments and divorces are based on specific promises and contracts romantically called wedding vows. The same standard should apply to all economic relationsips between people who are closer socially than mere business operators and customers. I don't like the hypocrisy on this issue in the current system. The marriage-alimony analogy still stands.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
I'd like to see that logic applied to the school (that is, your tuition would stay the same as the first term you attended, no matter how many years have passed.) Power to the people!!!
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
"The validity of homosexual feelings isn't really at issue here. It's the behavior. I don't imagine that this mom would have been any happier if her daughter was doing the quarterback of the football team."
Is there no distinction between kissing another girl and shagging the quarterback?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Jeni, according to the original post, the provocation was merely a kiss between the two girls. It seems to imply that the relationship went no further than that. What the mother objects to is the girls interest in another girl, not the physical act.
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posted
At this point in the thread, I'd just like to remind the readers that the mother in question only found out about said kiss because she was reading the girls diary, followed by hiring a lawyer to spy on the girl. Who is at least 17 or 18 years old if she's in college.
That, in my opinion, is enough to start questioning the woman's quality as a mother, to disrespect her adult children in such a way. Her further actions, to me, just make it even worse.
That said, it sounds like it's time for the girl to arrange a different way of paying for college, either with scholarships, loans, or the military. Even if the mother does change her mind, it sounds like she's the kind of woman the girl needs to be independent of, asap.
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posted
Ayelar, what respect? Unfortunately most of the parents including my own(and grandmothers)I've encountered don't believe that they need to respect their children (or grandchildren)at all. That their children have no right to privacy at any age. That knowing exactly what goes on in their kid's lives is what they are entitled to for having raised them.
posted
By the way, I am not saying asians are racists against blacks, its just that I knew a lot of Korean girls growing up and their parents, particularly their mothers wished that they would marry rich white guys and a lot of them detested blacks. Thankfully that seems to be dying out these days.
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posted
Black/Asian kids are some of the most gorgeous of all. I used to teach swimming lessons to a bunch. And for a famous example look at Tiger Woods.
posted
AJ.... and it's so sad when they finally discover that the consequence of such a total lack of respect is the loss of the child, not physically but emotionally.
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well thanks ((((hobbes))))
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little girl. It was extremely difficult to even make friends they would approve of because I was the only girl in most of my community college science and engineering classes. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
