posted
I admit it. The first time I watched LOTR, I giggled a little bit at all the Hobbit, um, closeness. I know. I'm so childish. I guess that's why Boromir's death scene is my favorite one in Lotr since it depicts something I have really been missing in the movies.
It is actually kind of rare to find strong expressions of affection between men in movies. My favorite movie with enough man-love goodness is Planes, Trains, and Automobiles (and maybe Grand Canyon).
Can you recommend any others?
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posted
I'm awake! I actually have a suggestion for this topic, but it falls into the homosexual category, I guess, so...
Anyway, I'm just now reading LotR (I'm approaching the Shire Scouring), and I can't tell if the relationship between Frodo and Sam is actually as...affectionate as the movie makes it out to be or if the movie has tainted my interpretation. Either way, Elijah and Sean did a fine job.
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posted
i don't know, there are a quite a few movies out there that show strong male bonds, though perhaps not as poetic and articulated as those in the Rings movies.
butch cassidy and the sundance kid is a good movie about two long time friends. then you have coming of age movies, such as stand by me. then you have father-son type movies, like october sky. and brothers movies, like radio flyer.
i am up despite being totally exhausted, but i'm sure i'll think of others after i've slept.
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posted
Shawshank Redemption. They were very close, not physically, but where it counts despite all odds. Farewell my Concubine, but that is borderline gay... hmm...
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posted
Well, there's always the relationship between Prince Humperdink and Count Reugen. I see an undercurrent of homosexual attraction there, but no everyone does.
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Die Hard (Bruce Willis and the dude from Family Matters) Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (does father/son count?) Beverly Hills Ninja (mostly unrequited brotherly love between Chris Farley and the dude from Mortal Kombat) Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure (You killed Ted, you medieval dickweed!) Strange Brew Casablanca (One line... you know which one) Finding Forrester God's Army Life Is Beautiful (Father/son again) Reservoir Dogs (Misplaced love, but nonetheless...) Toy Story Iron Monkey Rush Hour 2 (Jackie almost cries when he thinks Chris Tucker died) The Blues Brothers White Christmas (Bing, Danny and the General) About a Boy Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan The Matrix Unforgiven
Also, I remember reading Howard Pyle's Arthur legend books when I was a kid and being surprised at how much man love there was. Knights would kiss each other, give each other rings, become brothers in arms (which seemed a serious commitment) and all manner of other things that today would only be legal in Vermont. Back then it was considered the pinnacle of manliness and today it's at best a little swishy. Funny how times change.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Off the top of my head, and I haven't seen a lot of movies and TV compared to most:
Robin Hood and Little John (take your pick on the movie, I like prince of thieves the least)
The golf movie whose name is escaping me with Matt Dillon and Charlize Theron and the old black guy. Also Happy Gilmore I guess, since one is just a "serious" version of the other.
Any coming of age movie, like Finding Forrester. Good Will Hunting, or the old Black Stallion.
War movies: Band of Brothers, Saving Ryan's Privates, that one in Russia with Jude Law and the skinny guy that played shakespear that I always think looks emaciated even though many girls think he's "dreamy"
posted
I don't know why U.S. society today is like this, but I think male to male affection is the most restricted here and now that it has ever been at any time in any culture in the world. Anthropologists please correct me if I'm wrong.
Guys from every continent but North America (heterosexual guys) can be seen kissing and hugging each other frequently, it seems to me. Reading stuff from other times and cultures, like St. John lying on Jesus' breast in the new testament, or multiple other examples I can't think of at the moment, I always am struck by how freely men were able to show affection and comradeship compared to us now.
Is it something we should worry about? I don't know. It seems like guys are under so much pressure all their lives to be manly, be strong, be best, succeed, compete, fight, win, don't show weakness, don't admit you can be wrong, don't apologize, be tough, don't ever cry, I don't know how they can stand it. It seems like an intolerable burden to bear.
It seems not good or healthy that every physical touch of a guy to another person must be sexualized in everyone's minds. People need physical contact. Babies who aren't given enough touch and attention will die, for no other reason than that, of "failure to thrive". Women are allowed to hug without it being considered sexual. I wonder why men aren't? Can that be a good thing? It doesn't seem like it. But on the other hand how can we change it?
posted
yup touches between men in the US are limited to sports wins or key play celebrating when high fiving, mutual chest bashing and hugging are ok. The rest of the time the most you see is a standard handshake or the manly arm clasp (hand to bicep) which is only used in times of great emotion.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
There was a movie with Jack Lemmon and John Malkovich years ago, where JM was entering the priesthood and they argued about Jesus being gay. (the JM character had gay relationships in his past but didn't see that it should matter if he wanted to be celibate. I forget if JL realizes that he, too, is latently gay.) I think this movie came out in a time when the theory was that everyone could be gay, before the importance of "born gay" became prevalent. (Hmm. Not in the IMDB. Conspiracy wheels turning)
But anyway, I was thinking it was odd that the open minded viewpoint called for interpreting everything as sexual, when that's kind of a 50's American view. Maybe it's all J. Edgar Hoover's fault.
posted
For an example of man love in television (I know, not strictly on topic, sorry), check out the show Everwood. I'm really enjoying the father/son relationships (Andy Brown/Ephram Brown and Harold Abbott/Bright Abbott) and the developing friendship between Bright (superjock) and Ephram (manga-loving outsider).
I love that show.
Except for StupidAmy. HATE her.
There are also some really great relationships on NYPD Blue.
I love television. Sigh.
Men should love each other more. It can only be a good thing, as far as I am concerned. My dad comes from a French-Canadian-American upbringing and he is verrrry kissy. We have always been physically affectionate in my family, and it kind of throws people off when they first meet us and we give them the European Cheek Kissing, and firm hugs. I've gotten away from it because I live in a more physically formal world now (military base, not allowed to give people in uniform public displays of affection, it's actually against the rules *le sigh*). Sad.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I don't mean that in an "Everything is salacious." sense. I mean that many fewer things are salacious than we may think.
There were parts of Return of the King that made me giggle, but it's just love. Love does not equal sex.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The Man in The Iron Mask - D'Artagnan says he loves and cherishes Athos or something along those lines, but clearly it wasn't implying homosexuality since he had two sons.
And I am sure I have seen at least one other movie that would be a very good example, but I can't think of it right now. Posts: 733 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
You know that in Old Norse culture you could be outlawed for just suggesting a man was gay? If he didn't kill you first, that is.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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i really liked how close the brothers in boondock saints were, it was heavy, but i don't think it was overdone at any point. such an awesome movie
aka, i agree with you. i find it a pity that emotion and affection is such a taboo for men in our society. there are other societies that are comparable, but yes, there are MANY other societies where it is not at all restricted like ours. for example, i was watching a persian movie with my friend saghi from iran and the father in the movie started weeping, and saghi explained to me that in her parent's culture it is not considered weak of feminine for men to cry. i was being critical nor was i entranced because the father was crying, but saghi knew there was a significant difference in our view of men's relationship with emotions as compared to many other people in the world. you know, i almost wonder if since issues concerning homosexuality have taken such a strong position in our culture people have become even more wary and reserved in how they present themselves. okay, that is barely a wonder, of course people are more wary, but the aspect that interests me is the fact that homosexuality is much more accepted than say, ten years ago, but i think because we are so much more willing to tag and even accept people as homosexual more people are afraid of being labeled as such.
this prim and isolationist aspect of our culture makes me sad, and it's not just with guys. back in school i knew two girls from ethiopa who used to hold hands when they first came to college in U.S., but then they quickly learned what that meant to people around them and changed their behavior. they laughed when they told the story, but it actually made me sad. i like holding hands with my friends, both girls and guys, and i dislike that it's taken as sexual or romantic when it really is just love.
posted
Y tu mam Tambien ... doesn't count, i guess. It's about two fellas who go on a road trip with an older woman in hopes of getting in her pants. They do, sort of, but they also get really drunk and end up kissing each other while making out with her. It entirely destroys whatever friendship they had. Which is sort of a metaphore for what you're talking about.
It's like men can't be affectionate without being gay.
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While some of the jokes about, for example, Frodo and Sam’s relationship are very funny, they always make me sad as well because they deny the reality of love between friends that is not sexual. As that type of platonic love is one of the highlights of my life, I hate to see it so discounted.
It’s also something I’ve had to be very aware of as a pastoral counselor – the counseling relationship can get emotionally intimate, and many men don’t have a way to interpret intimacy other than as romantic attraction.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
It's true. Everyday touching between men and women can be even more taboo in other cultures than ours, I think, but we seem to be the strictest when it comes to same-sex touching or closeness. I remember I made friends with a girl newly arrived from China in engineering school. One day she pulled her desk right up touching mine in class and linked arms with me. I remember thinking, "This is just a cultural difference. Girls do this in China all the time. Don't let it make you feel weird." But it still did. <laughs>
Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I have a completely unscientific theory that it is possible the rise of children having security blankets in the US has a lot to do with lack of positive sensory input (touching) from parental sources. Having a security blanket is an extremely sensory experience if you watch most children. They will rub it against their fingertips, face, lips, hands, arms and eyelids. The reason they become so tatterd is exactly because they are rubbed so much.
posted
I don't think everyone has this problem. Both me and my sister's in laws are a lot more touchy than my family is comfortable with. But my family had a lot of "body shame" issues. Both of those families were LDS also, so it's not necessarily the religious thing. But we have other reasons for being hypervigilant and paranoid.
I remember something from my child psych class about how people's need for touch differs. Some babies like to be held as much as they can (usually more than the caregivers want to), and others get fussy if they are held too long.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Well, that's certainly true. I sometimes feel like a Spaniard born to a family of English people. I'm a very huggable, cuddly person and the rest of my family are quite standoffish. I feel sometimes like one of those monkeys in the experiment raised with no terrycloth mom. Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I'm an English person born to a family of Spaniards.
Seriously, I used to have to tell my mom to stop touching me. We'd be talking and she'd pat my leg or my arm or something, and after a few minutes I'd just move away.There were personal space issues, too. My mother's personal space (the distance she feels comfortable conversing at) is , like INCHES deep. Mine is maybe a foot, foot and a half.
She used to literally back me across the room. LOL
Of my boys, Robert and Ron are the most touchy/affectionate. Robert likes to climb on meand stuff. I love him, but I have trouble with it. Liam on the other hand, would always let me hold him a little bit, then wriggle until I put him the heck down. Now that he's older, we seem to be about evenly matched, affection wise. I love his hugs and kisses, and he seems to love mine, too. He rarely hangs on me or climbs up in my face.
I think it must be genetic, because I was definitely touched affectionately a lot growing up, and never molested or anything. But sometimes Ron and I will be driving somewhere and Ron will be holding my hand rubbing his thumb over my knuckles and I'll be like, "That's enough, you're going to rub a hole in my skin." It's silly, because I know he won't hurt me. I just seem to have limits to sensory input from touch. I'm also light sensitive and I don't like loud noises.
Boy, is this thread off on a tangent...
Anyway, at WenchCon, when people made the inevitable Frodo/Sam jokes, I remember saying once, "But I know their love is pure!" I think it got a laugh, but I was serious.
D'Argo and John Chriton... A lovely, manly friendship Gosh, I miss Farscape.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
My dad was born in Japan, so American culture seems sloppy-affectionate to my family, but preferable to Japanese culture, where bathing together as a family and public near-nudity in the summer is fine. The Japanese don't hug but they're very open about sex.
The culture clash in interesting. Once, my grandma went with us on a trip to the beach, where we all changed into swimming suits in the car. I made sure my dad was far away when I changed; my Grandma looked confused and said, "But he's your father." Meaning, nudity should be no issue, since he's family.
Loving relationships between men is a strong theme in Japan; many operas explore questions of love and fealty to one's lord and fellow samurai. I'm not sure if samurai had sexual relationships as well. I've read conflicting reports. Some people say in Japan's feudal age, sexual acts between samurai "brothers" were considered okay, and not "gay", just a thing they did. What was considered shocking was a man being sexually submissive to any other person. Thus, pedophilia was sort of ok too. That's what I've heard, anyway.
My personal experience with Japanese people has been that they care about their families, but often, the real social groups are gender-split; men party with men, women with women. But it's not sexual.
Also, I've noticed that sisters in the LDS wards I've gone to in the last 10 years are more reticent about PDA than they used to be; how sad, as one of the best things about Relief Society is mutual love and support between women.
quote:Also, I've noticed that sisters in the LDS wards I've gone to in the last 10 years are more reticent about PDA than they used to be; how sad, as one of the best things about Relief Society is mutual love and support between women.
That is something that could either be easily taken the wrong way, or is the most subtle attempt to promote girl-girl action I have ever seen.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: Me too, totally, aka. Wow. That's how I feel, like, EXACTLY.
Then again, I actually AM Spanish. But it still applies.
That's exactly how I feel too... do you think my mom's Argentinian blood has anything to do with it, or is it pure Spanish? Is Hispanic halfway there, at least? Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
My mom used to sit at church, put her arm on the back of the bench, and play with my hair the whole freaking time. Drove me nuts - I kept dodging.
Topic? I got nothing.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: I'm not sure if samurai had sexual relationships as well. I've read conflicting reports. Some people say in Japan's feudal age, sexual acts between samurai "brothers" were considered okay, and not "gay", just a thing they did.
From the sources I've read, homosexual relationships were fairly common among samurai in feudal Japan. There are a lot of legends about samurai lovers taking their lives for various reasons.
I'd compare it to the relationships the Spartans had with their brothers-in-arms, though not quite as prevalent.
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