posted
Over the last few days of discussion, I've noticed an interesting phenomenon. Person A says something along the lines of 'My religion says this. That's why I believe what I beleive.' Person B says 'Your religion is, therefore, wrong for the following reasons.' Person A will often get offended if person B says that their religion, or that particular bit of their religion, is wrong. You can put 'God' in place of religion in some of these examples.
My thought is that if you are in an argument with someone, then you are within a framework where your assumptions and logic can be challenged. This includes the sources that you base things on.
At one point on Hatrack, there was a thread by Mr. Squicky, I believe, that basically questioned whether calling an idea 'stupid' was productive. I believe he also asserted that it was insulting. The replies were overwhelmingly of the opinion that calling an idea stupid was fair game as stupid was just another way of saying 'wrong' and that if an idea is stupid, there is no harm in calling it so as that is just being honest.
I agree with Mr. Squicky that calling ideas 'stupid' is counterproductive and vague. Other terms can be used that are less inflammatory, but it's unavoidable that the idea is going to come across that you are basically saying 'Your idea is stupid because your source's logic is fubared.'
With this thought in mind, I think it might be best if religious sources not be used as basis for reasoning in discussion on topics that aren't strictly religious. I kind of think it's an intellectual cop-out anyway to say something along the lines of 'My religion says it, so it must be true/I have no choice in the matter.' If you believe something is true, I think you should take responsibility for your decision to believe it and either say 'I believe it but I have no basis for this knowledge that I can point to.', or put up some kind of reasoning for your belief that doesn't make your religious beliefs a target. In other words, by not using them.
Any thoughts?
(I've generalized the discussions where I've noticed the above taking place considerably. If you think I'm talking about you or your argument with person X specifically, I'm not. )
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Only if people who base their beliefs on non-religious philosphical precepts have to do the same thing. If "the only reason to oppose homosexual marriage is your religious beliefs" makes such opposition unacceptable, then someone needs to explain what criteria needs to be make a moral proposition acceptable.
The reason I believe in individual freedom is because I believe we are all made in God's image and as such are due a certain respect and dignity. That reasoning is inseperable from the reason I oppose abortion, slavery, murder, child molestation, and rape. It's also the basis for my support of feeding the poor, healing the sick, and housing the homeless.
posted
Dags, I am not arguing that religious motives are stupid because they're religious or saying that it is wrong for people to use them. Basically, I'm saying that if you throw your religious sources and symbols out there as part of the logic as why you think the way you do, then those sources and symbols are fair game for comment. Obviously, non-religious sources and logic are already fair game for comment.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Basically, I'm saying that if you throw your religious sources and symbols out there as part of the logic as why you think the way you do, then those sources and symbols are fair game for comment. Obviously, non-religious sources and logic are already fair game for comment.
I agree with that, but I don't think that's what this means: "If you believe something is true, I think you should take responsibility for your decision to believe it and either say 'I believe it but I have no basis for this knowledge that I can point to.', or put up some kind of reasoning for your belief that doesn't make your religious beliefs a target."
There is a basis of knowledge that can be pointed to, and when it's necessary I will point to my religious beliefs. If you'll notice, I only point to religious beliefs when I'm trying to explain the motives of religious people or we're dealing with metaphysical issues that must be based on some absolute premises, religious or otherwise.
posted
I did not phrase that paragraph very well. Pardon.
That comment is an elaboration on why I thought religious symbols aren't needed in debates that aren't strictly about 'religion'. (As they cause discord when they are commented on.)Basically, I think if you use religious symbols in debates, then don't complain when people comment on them as they would any other idea. This *isn't* to say that the logic your religion teaches you is wrong or that by using the logic you have been taught in Friday/Saturday/Sunday school you are somehow automatically in the wrong.
posted
That's clear. And I largely agree. If you bring something up in a discussion, it's fair game to be disagreed with.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'll point out that it's completely societal that "I think but can't prove" is totally dismissed in arguments. Meaning that right NOW it's not acceptable to use faith as a reason to make a decision, but at other times in history it was pretty normal, and may be so again one day.
How do you know that logic is any more accurate than faith?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think I understand what you're saying, Storm, and I think that after a while on Hatrack I got to that point. That's why I dropped the GGOSC thread when I did.
But by the same token, I think it's a violation of the same ethic for non-religious people to call us on what they think we believe. (edit: by which I don't mean Dan Raven bringing up the golden rule. I mean folks thinking Mormons are chomping on the bit to start polygamizing again. Just saw that on the other thread and thought I'd clarify.)
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