posted
Funny, this thing with the baby that happened last night on ER was the biggest dilemma I've had in my own brain in a long time.
Quick background: A child born to lesbian couple was taken by the family of the biological mother after the biological mother was killed, and the other mother was completely shunned and not allowed to see the child.
I tore that up in my head for hours after I had gone to bed, trying to determine how I would behave in that situation.
Warning...possibly offensive worldview in the following paragraph:
I don't agree that homosexuality is "okay" although I don't really believe that being raised by a gay person will "screw up" the child, especially in the case of a different sex parent. (As in, I think that it's better for lesbians to have a boy if they have to have kids, and for a gay couple to have a girl.)
But could I take the child away from the woman or man that, after all, isn't really the parent? My major concern would be the child being raised without the same values and religion that I have.
Of course, many families face this situation everyday with their own kids making decisions that they never would. My aunt's daughter is raising her kids in a pretty volitile environment, although they are physically safe. She doesn't think it's her duty to take the kids even though she worries about how they are turning out. I agree with her, because I think that people need to be able to make their own mistakes, or what we might consider to be mistakes, with their own kids, just as we were allowed to with OUR kids. (There are situations where the parent should NOT be allowed to make their own mistakes, but this is not one of those times.)
Now, if the mother is raising her child without God, and her family is very religious, it would probably cause extreme turmoil in the family, primarily out of fear that the child might miss out on eternity, in whatever sense that it is defined in the religion. (For example, the family might worry that the child might not be saved if they are raised to disdain Christ.) Yet I don't feel like that is sufficient grounds to try and take a child, and certainly the courts wouldn't see it as such.
The problem lies when the child has to be raised by a person that is not, by almost any definition, the parent. There is no blood relation, and no legal rights as far as I know. Certainly, the parent in question has spent the most time with the child and has come to view that child as his or her son or daughter, and the child likely views the person as his mother or father.
What sort of responsibility do the blood relatives have towards the unrelated "stranger"? (This is assuming that the family completely disagrees with her lifestyle, and has legal rights to the child.)
My gut says that, although it may be painful, you can't take that child away. They have a relationship that you may not understand and you can't control, but it's there. (I realize that this is also true of two people in a gay relationship, but the difference is that I don't think there's anything morally wrong with a gay person raising a child, or with a child being raised by a gay parent.)
Now the problem comes to the legal aspect. The blood family probably has full legal rights over the child, assuming that there is no will. (I have no idea if a will would even be enough to give an unrelated person full custody of a child, assuming that the blood relatives were fighting for the child.) Being religious, it would be very difficult for me to give full custody to the homosexual parent, knowing that it would give them the right to move to Malaysia with the child if they chose, far away from my love and influence. I considered giving half custody to the gay parent, but allowing the child to be raised completely under their care. I'm still not sure that it's fair though.
Here are my questions:
1. If you are religious, or do not believe that homosexuality is a moral lifestyle, how would handle it if you had custody of a child, and a gay or lesbian parent that felt they had rights to the child?
2. If you are gay or pro-gay, would you be insulted if an extremely religious family gave the gay parent what I was thinking, meaning half custody and fulltime living with them? Or would you be grateful that they had even gotten that much?
I don't want to talk about whether or not homosexuality is moral, nor do I want to argue semantics. We all know that everyone here has different views on it, and this thread isn't the place to fight it out.
And please don't flame me for disagreeing with the gay lifestyle, or being hesitant to let the person have full custody. We can talk about it, and offer ideas and opinions, but I don't want to be yelled at or nailed to the wall, because that doesn't address the core problem. I just want some well thought out opinions, and consideration of the other person's feelings.
Oh yeah, the other given is that the child is still and infant and isn't really able to express feelings on the situation. If we're talking about a ten-year-old that's an entirely different ball of wax. They are old enough to want to be with their parent and to understand the legal implications involved.
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posted
My daughter died, my granddaughter is a new infant, the person (male or female) my daughter was living with who is not related by blood to my granddaughter wants to keep her?
Nope. I get the baby, and keep in touch with the other person living in the house. We'll work something out They definitely have an interest, but unless the kid is legally adopted, they don't have rights.
It isn't religion - it's the kid's security. Especially if I didn't know the other person before, to just leave the kid there and hope for the other person is a warm and fuzzy doctor instead of all the other scenarios that could exist would be horrendously negligent.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I wonder if that show was based somewhat loosely on This Case.
I know there has been, in the news recently, several reports of custody disputes over children on lesbian couples who separate. It is a difficult ethical dilemma.
posted
I usually stay away from these threads because of the feelings of anger and helplessness I am experiencing now.
When my mother died in 1965, and my dad was left single, my mother's parents were VERY strongly saying that they should raise me.
My father stood firm, and raised me alone, in a time when it was not what men did.
That child is the child of the partner, whether or not he/she was adopted, and no matter how old he/she is.
Are you implying that love for a child is increased based on lengtt of time with them? Nonsense. I loved my children the instant they were born with EVERY SINGLE BIT of love that I have for them now.
The parent who lost her partner now loses her child as well? Unacceptable.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: My gut says that, although it may be painful, you can't take that child away
Then again, didn't we have a similar dicussion when that news story came out where this mom found her daughter, (who was believed to have been killed in a fire as an infant), that someone else had raised?
Didn't most people feel it was right that the real mother got her child back from the kidnapper, even though the kidnapper had raised the child as her own for six years?
So in that case, was ripping the child away from the only parent she had "known" (albeit the wrong parent) the wrong thing to do? How is this different?
posted
Dan, that's what I'm talking about. I could just as easily say that it's wrong for gay people to want to change everything, and then expect the rest of the world to accomodate them. But I was trying to avoid that argument altogether.
And Kat, I'm assuming that you know the person and like them. Of course if you don't know the person at all, or they are a terrible person, you wouldn't let them raise the child.
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posted
"But I was trying to avoid that argument altogether."
Well, no. You were trying to dance around the issue, because you knew that we'd flame you to a crisp if you came out and SAID it. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
No, Tom, I just didn't want to get to the point of anyone flaming ANYBODY.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I assure you that you don't have a clue what's going on in my brain. I really am having a serious debate in my mind. Why would I start this thread if I could have hashed out my gay-marriage problems in any one of the five million gay marriage threads? Because that isn't really where my problem is at all.
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posted
And I apologize for my post, which I will not delete, but which came from a visceral mother bear kind of place.
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posted
If your child chooses someone to parent with, whether it is a same-sex or different-sex person, you respect your child's wishes.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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The family that would take a child away from a parent just because the woman wasn't able to legally marry their partner...
Well that family will have a nice warm stay in their own hell as far as I am concerned. Anyone who think's their God would condone such behavior will have a rude awakening when they die. I can think of few things which are lower and more despicable.
posted
No, I just let my emotions rule my post, and that is usually not a good thing in these situations, and leads to hard feelings.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Wow, sounds like I should have watched the last part of E.R.
When Carrie's partner died I actually thought "I hope Dr. Weaver has some kind of legal document (in her partner's will?) that stated she would get cutody in the event of her partner's death."
Actually, I just thought "I hope Carrie doesn't get screwed by the parents."
In this case, and any real life case like it, Carrie should have raised that baby. No question in my mind. Those parents should have kissed Carrie's butt and been nice to her so they could have the appropriate grandparent role.
Parents are parents. Grandparents are grandparents. Kids need both. Parents to raise them; grandparents to spoil them and send them home to their parents. IMHO. Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:The family that would take a child away from a parent just because the woman wasn't able to legally marry their partner...
My scenario is assuming I don't know the other person, and I'm not up to date with my daugther's life.
I don't know what was on ER, but there could be many, many reasons for someone to be pregnant and living with someone else at the same time, and not all of them are "they have chosen to parent a child together." What if it's only been for a little bit? What if my daughter was pregnant before? How do I know that it wasn't my daughter dying for a baby and the other person reluctantly agreeing, but now wants to keep the kid to make a poilitcal point.
If you think parents won't use children to make political points, you haven't been watching the Pledge of Allegience case in front of the Supreme Court.
As to maybe this other person may think I'm a threat, that's nice. I know I'm not, and I'm not shutting out anyone who wants to be part of the kid's life. But I'm not going to leave my granddaughter in a precarious, possibly-neglectful situation to make a political point either.
posted
Kat, they had chosen to raise the child together, and I think they even had a wedding ceremony type thing. I can't remember. But they did see each other as life partners. I think they were already together when Sandy got pregnant, probably using a sperm donor.
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posted
Okay. I don't really care about ER, though. Of course the situation described would be the most loving, stable, wealthy situation possible to make the situation sympathetic. I'd hate to base a RL opinion on a show because because biased fiction is obviously going to be tilted to one side. Life is messier than that.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I'm not saying to leave a grandchild in a neglectful situation, and I really don't think anyone is arguing that.
But I don't think the fact that the other parent is the same sex as the parent who died should have any relevance to the situation. Don't leave the child with a bad parent. Do leave it with a good parent. The situation seems very cut and dry to me.
I think letting grandparents take away children for anything other than the same reasons the state would take away a child are dangerous. Grandparents are not necessarily any more right than parents.
For example, I would feel uncomfortable if my daughter chose to parent with a Christian person (of either sex), died, and then the child was raised as a Christian without any respect for their Jewish heritage. But I don't think I should be allowed to take the child in that case.
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posted
On an unrelated note, Grad, I am extremely annoyed that my parents completely ignored my Jewish heritage in favor of my Christian religion. Can't I have both?
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:But I don't think the fact that the other parent is the same sex as the parent who died should have any relevance to the situation.
I don't either. Same opinion would apply if the person my daughter was living was male.
I know - since they are both female, there was no way for the kid to be related to both. Seriously though, if they're so smart and ready for the baby, why didn't they take care of this legally beforehand?
You could say this is the argument for gay marriage, which would make the process shorter, but there are steps that could be taken now to make the kid is both of theirs. Why didn't they do it?
There could be many reasons, and while one of them is it didn't occur to them, others could include that the other person didn't want to before. Either way, I'm not going to leave the kid and hope for the best.
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posted
There are at least some states where it is not possible for both same-sexparents to legally have custody of the kids.
I have friends where one parent is the genetic mother and the other actually carried the child. One the one who was pregnant is able to legally get custody of the kids. They live in NY.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
kat, I wonder if the partner wouldn't see you taking the child in the same light. Especially if you weren't a part of your child's life when they died. Wouldn't they have cause to be equally concerned? What kind of parent are you that you don't know what your child's decisions were? Aren't you just choosing your own ideology over the one your child has choosen?
Edit: sorry if i'm contributing to derailing, PSI, but I didn't see ER.
posted
It's okay, as a blood relative, to assume an ethical responsibility for the child. There's nothing wrong with feeling obligated to make sure that the child's needs are being met.
If it is found that the child is being provided with everything they are legally supposed to be provided with, then you should do your best to make the partner a part of the family at large by keeping in touch and being supportive, or offerring whatever services you can give, if they are needed.
You ought not have any recourse to remove the child from its intended parentage while that parentage is still around, unless the child's needs are not being met--a judgement that must made by state authorities.
If it is clear that your daughter intended for her partner Cristy to raise the child with her, you would be a heartless mother indeed to tear what's left of your daughter away from where your daughter clearly wanted her life to be spent. That is unethical and disrespectful in the extreme.
These conclusions all assume the previously posited facts. Other cases may not be so cut and dried.
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posted
Celia, I could care less about the episode of ER. It just spawned the thread. I'd actually be happier if it would stay away from the show plot.
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