posted
So I'm doing a lot of table formatting stuff in Word. Every time I make a change, I get "This action will not be marked as a change. Do you want to continue?"
Anyone know how to turn that off?
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
You're going to switch to vi over Word 2003? Wow. In that case, care to give me your license of Word 2003, since vi is better for you?
Fugu, you are very wrong about that when considering Word XP and Word 2003. Their integration with other office apps and formatting capabilities way outshines plain text editors and LaTex. I would agree that it is often more than someone ever needs, but the comparison you've made is not accurate.
posted
I was both slightly joking and slightly speaking for the average user. The average person I know is continually frustrated with Word, and often has to spend a while frittering with settings and backspacing over word inserted formatting before he gets the format he wants.
Compare that to LaTeX, where once you've learned the sorts of constructs you use, formatting just happens, in a very nice looking manner. Furthermore, the marked up document can be used to generate documents in numerous formats, from pdf to html.
That people use Word as a layout program is even worse. Word and the rest of the Office suite are a printer's nightmare.
Word has many, many capabilities, and its integration in particular is impressive, but most people have bought a claymore to slay a mouse, and it is a very expensive claymore.
That universities and other places use it as a format to turn in documents in is even worse, as it effectively requires most people to make a large outlay for Word (free alternatives for generating the documents notwithstanding, they are not well known at all, and people will only buy in their realm of understanding).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Actually, there's a great LaTeX visual editor out there (though I personally prefer learning the markup, its more explicit, most people balk at having to type things like \section{The Huns} )
This may also be of itnerest (its a LaTeX distribution for windows): http://www.miktex.org/
Once you've installed that (its just the processing engine), you'd pick the editor of your choice (you can even do it in notepad). Here's a list of those that integrate well:
posted
There is a high learning curve with LaTeX. Its not for someone who wants to expend no effort. However, once you've expended the effort (and its not all that much, there're huge numbers of references and tutorials on using LaTeX out there) you're good to go. You know how to do what you want to do, pretty much completely.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
*nods* LaTeX is a great typesetting language. Its actually a descendant of an even more complete, but much more complicated and low-level typesetting language called TeX, which was developed by Knuth (one of the most important men in 20th century computer science).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
"Compare that to LaTeX, where once you've learned the sorts of constructs you use, formatting just happens, in a very nice looking manner."
Yes. And once you've learned C++, video games just happen.
Seriously, suggesting that the "typical user" learn a formatting language to do their word processing is like suggesting that the "typical user" start doing all their documents in XML. Your average user, assuming he or she is able to read help files and is willing to invest ten minutes in actually learning Word, will do just fine; the problem is -- as we see in this example -- that most users don't think to check help files and/or research the program they're using, and then blame the program for it.
While there are legitimate reasons to consider a formatting language like LaTeX, issues like this one -- where a helpful feature of Word, like Track Changes, isn't understood by the user -- aren't included. A user who doesn't know how to figure out what change tracking is, and doesn't think to even check the Help file, isn't going to figure out LaTeX.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, LyX uses LaTeX and is a WYSIWYM (What You See Is What You Mean) program. Using LaTeX does not always mean using markup.
However, considering the typical user has readily picked up bits and pieces of HTML, its not at all far fetched. You were the one acclaiming the amature notepad website not so long ago.
Furthermore, your analogy is absurd (as you well know ). LaTeX is not used as a programming language. TeX is used as a programming language. LaTeX is used as a rather simple, high level markup language.
I daresay most people could learn to type the following when they want a list, for instance:
code:
\begin{itemize} \item First Item \item Second Item \end{itemize}
Even better, most people wouldn't have to. *opens up TeXShop*
macros->lists->itemize
code:
\begin{itemize} \item \end{itemize}
(with the cursor positioned after \item, ready to type the first item. No effort required, and this is with a text editor frontend. With a WYSIWYM or WYSIWYG front end, its even more straightforward.
Type "1) Something." Hit return. To stop typing in a numbered list, hit return twice.
To make a bulleted list in Word: type your items, highlight them, then click the bulleted list icon.
Yeah, LaTeX is inherently more flexible -- but for that matter, Word offers a fair bit of list flexibility, too, once you get into the Format menu. And I think you overrate the average user if you REALLY believe them capable of remembering how to wrap their list items in code.
Now, I agree that a true WYSIWYG editor with a LaTeX backend would be great -- but there's a reason they haven't caught on: the ones that have been written just aren't all that usable in office environments.
posted
Other software packages don't do well because Word is entrenched, not any huge failing on their own part. Everyone has the mindset that Word is necessary. (edit: I'm not just talking about LaTeX packages here, but other word/text processing apps in general).
The list example was merely an example of how LaTeX was not hard, not how it was superior to Word. However, as I've wrangled with the list functionality of Word more than once (and I do read the docs and check the help) there are definite situations where its autosense abilities can cause annoying problems, which just don't arise with LaTeX. There, what I say is a list item is a list item, and what I don't say is a list item isn't a list item, no matter how complex my structure.
posted
How sure are you guys that LaTex and Co. will survive much longer? I've been hesitant to look into it because I don't want to crawl up that "steep learning curve", and then find out that less and less people will be able to read my stuff.
For example, any scientific publication I know of accepts *.doc or *.pdf (which nowadays can easily and fairly reliably be made from docs). The number that takes LaTex manuscripts is shrinking. Even "Science" refuses to take them for the initial submission.
Posts: 1045 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Plus, its still far superior for math editing and bibliography compilation (especially at the price).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I know, fugu. I'm saying that Word is just as "entrenched" in academia, if not much more already. There is an extremely loyal Tex community among physicists and computer folks, but that's a small part of the academic world, and this nerdy part may find it increasingly hard to publish papers in LaTex, methinks.
Edit to add:
<-- yells swear words at Word almost daily, and dearly wishes for a REAL alternative
posted
Yes, Word is more entrenched. I'm not disputing that at all, and am in fact acknowledging that. Its just that my position is that Word's entrenchment is bad .
edit: and there's no reason you have to hand over the papers in LaTeX. As you say, most places accept PDFs.
quote:However, considering the typical user has readily picked up bits and pieces of HTML, its not at all far fetched.
Oh my. You're a programmer, right? The bane of a tech writer's existance.
No, the typical use does NOT know HTML. The typical user wants to type what they mean, and every bit of extra learning they have to do is an almost unbearable imposition. The typical user doesn't use the search box in the Help - why on earth would they learn a tagging system?
The typical user's first line of inquiry is their co-workers - no matter what the level of co-worker's supposed ability. This isn't to be lamented - this is human nature.
posted
I'm not exactly advocating it for everyone. Rather I'm saying that if many people put a small fraction of the time they spent being frustrated at Word into learning a slightly more complex, but much more regular system/program/what have you, productivity would greatly increase.
I'm fine with Word existing; it has many uses, several of which no other application matches it in. However, for most people its an expensive boondoggle that gets in their way. Heck, a lot of people would better be able to write up documents in a plain text editor with some spell checking.
quote:However, for most people its an expensive boondoggle that gets in their way. Heck, a lot of people would better be able to write up documents in a plain text editor with some spell checking.
What makes you think this about most people?
I never have problems with Word. I don't create web pages with it, but in terms of what I do create, Word is what was provided for me to use and its compatible with my office, so I use it. I formatted Hobbes's resume in about two minutes.
It took a while to figure out all the quirks (becuase I HATE fiddling with a computer or a program for its own sake), but if both programs work fine after putting in a little effort, why the smacktalk about Word? *honestly*
My goal is to make the computer as invisible as possible. Every time I have to think about a language, a format, a program, or hardware instead of whatever task I'm using the computer to accomplish, it irkles me.
People spend more time cursing at the computer instead of taking a moment to figure it out before they start because they don't HAVE to figure it out before they start, but they DO have to curse it at when it isn't doing what they want it to.
I feel your pain. One of our mottos is RTFM. But people just don't. I can't blame them.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Fugu you're telling them to use lyx? Is that any good. I mean I just code my own LaTeX using this manual: [url] www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/ lshort/english/lshort.pdf [/url].
However, I don't feel that LaTeX is necessarily appropriate for everyone. Word is basically inappropriate to use most of the time in CS and LaTeX would probably fairly inappropriate to use as an English major. It all has to do with ease of getting to the style people need in their field and being able to share documents.
GradStudent what are you working in. What is your degree in if you are a grad student?
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I don't feel its appropriate for everyone either. But it is appropriate for a lot of people who aren't using it.
Re: LyX, a lot of people have a fear of markup. LyX helps allay that fear.
And yes, Katharina, Word is an expensive boondoggle for most people. Word costs $229. For the capabilities they use, most people don't need to spend that much, and shouldn't have to spend that much. OpenOffice or StarOffice or even just a decent rich text editor does plenty.
Also, Word is not an excellent tool for many jobs, such as equation editing, and page layout (printers hate how people send them documents in Word), and HTML page generation (hello, non-standards compliant, browser incompatible HTML).
Related to the above problems, is that it encourages Word-think. There have been several articles and studies lately talking about the problems with the proliferation of Excel and PowerPoint. They are constraints that limit thinking and power. Powerpoint was even partly blamed for the recent shuttle accident, because while the engineers made up lengthy notes, the managers assumed the necessary information was carried in the Powerpoint slides. It encourages fitting data into a degree of conciseness that data almost never has.
Excel's problem is that many people are using it for a data store and computational tool, which has caused problems because its causes process paralysis. People start plugging their numbers into the excel spreadsheet they got handed, and when the process changes they aren't able to modify the spreadsheet to match and they don't change with the process.
Similarly, Word causes many people to view documents as less data than presentation. Can it be used as an effective tool? Definitely. But it encourages a lot of ugly documents.
Are these problems unique to MS Office? Of course not. But Office is the most prolific offender.
Then there's its document format. Its rotten. Its very hard to decode accurately. And people assume everyone can read and edit it. Not everyone can read, much less edit, Word, and more importantly, fewer people should have to. That assumption drives Word's sales to so many people who would never get it otherwise -- people who could get by with any of the many good WYSIWYG editors that handle day to day editing just as well -- for prices between $0 and $50.
Word is expensive, and hard to interoperate with. MS uses that difficulty to spread Word's influence among people who shouldn't have to use it, effectively extorting money from the honest (the less honest pirate it).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Word only cost me $50 with a discount when I was a student, and at some universities, I hear it's even less. In fact, the whole office suite is a much better deal for students and teachers, and is the whole programs, not something hamstrung for lesser licenses. Business licenses are similar, and are how I got the entire Office suite for less than $200. Everywhere it is most useful, there are alternatives to going to Best Buy or Circuit City and paying a premium.
I don't know what your point is about it being entrenched, though. It's entrenched because it solves the needs of the most amount of people in diverse fields without a steep learning curve. Offering something else to someone for a lower price but a twice as steep learning curve is not going to be attractive to any but those who enjoy fiddling with programs to begin with or who have something against the company to begin with. You strike me as the former, fugu. Not everyone is like that. In fact, most people are not. People pay for the ease and convenience, and even if they get more features than they'll ever be aware of, it's still a better solution for them than something twice as hard and not universally standard. It became the standard not because it's inferior, but because it catered to the most needs most efficiently. Now maybe it handles too much for the home user, but it still meets the needs of students, businesses, and offices better than any other de facto word processor. Text editors are a different story, but more people want word processors than they want text editors.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Argent -- that's because you already paid for it in tuition. The schools pay for a large contract to get that discount. There's still a discount, but its much less than what you perceive.
Also, by far most people are not college students or professors at colleges with MS contracts.
And there are plenty of other WYSIWYG editors that completely fulfill the needs of 90% of home users, at least. Consider StarOffice, or OpenOffice, or Abiword.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
You could get it for cheap if you are a community college student, or even a high school student or teacher. The student discount allows for these things. StarOffice is no cheaper than a discounted MS Office suite in most cases, and OpenOffice doesn't have e-mail/calendar capabilities. Also, the word processors in OpenOffice, while close, are not up to par on user friendliness that Word has. On top of all this, Word is the de facto standard by which all documents are used. Yes, there are alternatives, but you're mostly saying that the alternatives are better because either MS is the standard already or that you don't like MS Word, depending on which point you address. That's a valid opinion to hold, but you're claiming it like it's a fact.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Similarly, Word causes many people to view documents as less data than presentation.
"The Medium is the Message" predated Word.
So is your central contention that Word is too expensive for the simple jobs it is most often asked to do? Because most people don't use equations and HTML generation.
It looks like it isn't that Word is absolutely terrible, but that it isn't perfect enough to deserve its near-monopoly. In that case, your gripe is with Microsoft's marketing department. *salutes* Good luck!
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
And still, most people are not community college students. Plus, you just started talking about the entire MS Office suite, which is more expensive.
As for email, there are plenty of excellent free and cheap email solutions out there. Not having one bundled just plain doesn't matter for most people. Ditto for calendar capabilities.
I think that most people are effectively conned into buying an overpriced thing that they don't need, and I consider that a big problem. People spending hundreds of dollars on software when they can get things which do what they need completely for free is a problem.
And I'm saying the alternatives are better because its better to have alternatives. Word shuts out alternatives, and in particular Word shuts out lower priced alternatives.
I've stated over and over again that I don't consider Word absolutely terrible. I consider how it is often used to be absolutely terrible.
Re: the medium is the message, what I stated is not the same thing. I'm talking about people messing with layout not in order to enhance the message, but for the sake of messing with the layout. This is not unique to word, as I acknowledged, but is particularly enabled by Word.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I have to back you up on the plug for Open Office, fugu.
Heck, we in tech support even have OpenOffice loaded on our machines at work --- along with our normal MS Office Suite.
Because we learned a little trick -- sometimes if someone has a corrupt MS Office document that Word or Excel refuses to open, -- we try opening it instead in OpenOffice -- OpenOffice FIXES the corruption and then we save it back into Word (or whatever). <GRIN>
posted
Those who do that send a message, yes, but even though McLuhan intended "the medium is the message" to mean that content is almost entirely irrelevant (which I don't think you agree with), it has been adopted by the design world in a different spirit, as the idea that the medium is important and can be used to greatly further the content -- unlike McLuhan's view, the central part of the message is still the content. This would perhaps be better manifested in a phrase like "the media enables the message", but its such a pretty phrase as it is already.
Those who mess with the medium definitely send a message, and I'm not denying that, not am I denying that this practice is old (see twice above where I state, well, exactly that; I'm still not sure why you keep restating this but I must assume you don't like how I've responded and so respond again). However, my position is that both many people mess with the presentation for no good reason (say, by making their paper be in Comic Sans, which is in fact a bad reason if they're going to print it out -- Comic Sans has horrid printed readability), and that Word particularly enables and encourages this sort of practice.
To step back to the original discussion a bit, my basic position on that is, if you are getting frustrated at Word regularly, try something else. Don't keep pounding your head on your keyboard when there are numerous other options out there. Evaluate what you use Word for, and then look for a word processor/text editor/what have you that fulfills those needs well. Don't get stuck in the I have Word so I must use Word mentality.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I'm not sure what you're researching but 1/2 of my profs expect my stuff will be LaTeXed and almost all of the conferences have LaTeX templates. It's also just easier, in my humble and not always correct opinion, to format math to make it look pretty. It also has nice ways to add code to a database.
posted
I used Tex and LaTeX when I worked at ORNL a lifetime ago. I'm sure things have changed a lot since then, but I couldn't help my involuntary wince when I saw the advice to use LaTeX instead.
I use Word now. I turn off all autoformatting, including lists. Lists are one of the things that bug me most about Word, since, as a teacher, I frequently begin a line 1. blah blah blah . . . and don't want it immediately followed by 2. So I would not agree with Word's formatting of lists as a strength. I also turn off tracking of changes, after that one time I made a practice test by taking the actual test and changing each question, and then placed this test online for students to download. Luckily, it was I who discovered that you could get back the original test . . . as far as I know, no students did this. I have absolutely no issues with equations in Word, though. I use the equation editor that comes packaged with it. On two of my computers, I have the Equation Editor that they try to sell you (one came free with another piece of software). Honestly, the included one is less cumbersome than the one they expect you to pay for--and less buggy too. I know it has slightly less functionality, but I have rarely, if ever, run into any issues with it.
I'm sure there are lots of other great WYSIWYG word processors out there, but I'm happy with Word. Then again, as a teacher, I only paid about $70 for the whole suite . . . Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
"Argent -- that's because you already paid for it in tuition. The schools pay for a large contract to get that discount."
In all fairness, our college basically gets the latest version of Office free for all students, faculty and staff as a consequence of our larger contracts with Microsoft. It's both a blessing and a curse.
---------
Hey, fugu, can you recommend a LaTeX editor for Windows that doesn't require a shell? My wife's coworker is looking for a good math typesetting program, and she expressed interest.
posted
The thing is, I shudder at the thought of trying to recommend markup and a text editor to someone who's using the Equation Editor already. Yes, it's more POWERFUL -- but unless it's actually easier, it's not going to work as a sell.
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). LaTeX is not used as a programming language. TeX is used as a programming language. LaTeX is used as a rather simple, high level markup language.![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
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Luckily, it was I who discovered that you could get back the original test . . . as far as I know, no students did this. I have absolutely no issues with equations in Word, though. I use the equation editor that comes packaged with it. On two of my computers, I have the Equation Editor that they try to sell you (one came free with another piece of software). Honestly, the included one is less cumbersome than the one they expect you to pay for--and less buggy too. I know it has slightly less functionality, but I have rarely, if ever, run into any issues with it.
