posted
if you do get mace on your keychain, remember, its not going to do you the least bit of good if its in your purse, or somewhere not in your hand if he bothers you. If you get it, CARRY IT. In your HAND. Otherwise, don't expect the least measure of protection to result from it. And if you have long hair, keep it in some not-easily-grabbed hairstyle. Hair is a great thing to grab. (I got these and many other protection measures drilled into my head during the serial killer thing. They're good to remember)
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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You certainly were calm and brave and over all fabulous! I'm not sure I could have done the same.
I guess there is one positive thing to come out of this - that guy tries anyone else, you let Hatrack know, and before you know it there will be a Hatrack army converging on his position.
((((Kat))))
It does make me mad though, that women are made so vulnerable just because we're women. Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I have a friend who was traveling across the country to visit her husband stationed on the East Coast. At a certain gas station, she felt strongly impressed to buy a baseball bat. That night, she came in late to a hotel. The hotel manager was very *friendly* offering to carry her bags in for her. She politely turned down his offer. More than once he brought up excuses to escort her to her room. She declined again.
She found her bedsheets to be dirty and called for hotel service to bring her fresh sheets. Who should show up at her door but the hotel manager. He came in and lingered, trying to make conversation, standing very close to her. Her newly purchased baseball bat was not far in the corner, and she glanced at it. He saw what she was looking at, backed away, and left the room.
Eh, take it how you will. A baseball bat would be nice to have, but supposedly any weapon you have can be used against you also. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hi--delurking to suggest you read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker. His main point in keeping yourself safe is that you need to honor your instincts in all cases.
He also wrote a great book about keeping children safe titled "Protecting the Gift."
I'm sorry that happened to you but glad it didn't turn out worse.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
In the state of Texas, if you are carrying a baseball bat and not headed to practice or a game, you will be arrested for carrying a weapon.
Ironic but true. You can walk down the street with a loaded shotgun... if you are going to a skeet range. You can't walk down the street with a stick larger than a certain size (I want to say 14 inches) unless you can show a specific, immediate, non-weapon, use for it.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Tres, it's very sweet that you think that way. I fervently hope that you never have to lose that innocence.
Nobody HAS to surrender to their fears, though. In fact, even if you have already "lost your innocence," as you put it, I think you can get it back by resisting things like the urge to protect yourself absolutely from everything. Things like traumas can push you to give in, but I believe people can resist effectively, especially if helped by friends.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Why does the need to protect one's self need to be resisted? Are you suggesting that it is paranoid for a woman to know how to defend herself? I'd really like to know what is so wrong or paranoid about Kat (or anyone) taking steps to protect themselves against this or other kinds of assault, which are all too real in the world we inhabit. Spending a couple of nights a week learning to fight, or safely own, care for, and shoot a firearm is immediately going to turn a person into Batman.
I'd turn the question back on you-- what is it that *you* are so afraid of?
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
There is nothing at all wrong with being safe, or taking precautions, or learning to protect oneself. But there IS something wrong with taking fear and precaution to the extreme - doing things like moving, carrying a gun, or worrying yourself silly that do more to harm and endanger you more than protect you. What *I* am afraid of is that, if katharina (or others) really took some of this advice seriously, she'd hurt herself or others and place herself in unnecessary risk. I've seen that happen often, in reaction to things far lesser than this.
posted
Yes, again and again the police, the courts, people's families, society as a whole, will tell women, "you're overreacting, you're the problem, don't make waves, there's nothing we can do, oh poor guy, it's not his fault, anyone can make a mistake," etc.
Girls are constantly assaulted and killed. It happens with great frequency. Most college campuses have one or two a year that make the news, and several that don't. Most large cities have dozens a year. How many is acceptable before it would be okay in your mind for women to use force in response?
Women should not rely on anyone other than themselves to keep them safe. Historically, that just doesn't work. Given that the risk is real, which lives are we more comfortable putting at risk?
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Well, aside from the shotgun, I think the "big brother justice" ideas and mess-with-the-guy-to-intimidate him ideas are the sorts of things that are likely to lead to more trouble than protection. I'd also be very wary of the more general notion that she should change her personality in any way to be "tougher".
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I thought it was pretty clear that the big brother idea was mostly a joke. In case anyone didn't take it that way, I'll reiterate - the vigilante justice is bad. OK?
As for becoming tougher, it depends on what she means by that. If it means not buying into societal ideals that women are supposed to want everyone to like them, then I think it's a good thing.
posted
I'm not accepting that I'm "overreacting" and need to be understanding. A stranger has been watching me and entered my apartment without permission and put his hands on me. This is not acceptable behavior. This is my home and I have the right to be and feel safe in it. The danger is not something imagined; it HAPPENED.
You can say that protecting myself is over the top when you can guaruntee my safety. Social contract - you want the women to be calm and polite, you make damn sure they never suffer evil consequences from it. I've been polite, and someone took it as permission to invade my privacy and endanger my person.
I'm not going to get a gun. I refuse to shoot someone, so there's no point. I will get pepper spray or something, and I'll do whatever it takes to make sure he knows that even blinking in my direction is completely unacceptable.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Watch out with pepper spray, if you're forced to use it inside your home then you really will have to move out (trust me on this, I've used it before and you don't want to be anywhere around it even if it's pointed the other direction). Is there any other non-violent type weapon that's possible?
posted
Oh, maybe. I'm not relying on that, though. I think the police officer saying "Don't mess with her." will be more effective.
-----
You know what the saddest part of this is? I didn't want to be wary of my neighbors...
I live in a nice apartment in a sketchy part of town, but my apartment complex is mostly families. I KNOW that's why defenses were down enough to leave the door open. I remember the thought crossing my mind that he's got a teenage daughter, and I didn't want to be the Anglo princess. So, I was polite. Apparently that was "confusing."
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
a cattle prod (seriously) or tazer, I s'pose...
but, in case anyone hasn't been able to tell, I think the idea of non-violent, or even "measured response" reactions against violent people are not effective.
posted
I'm not moving. If anyone is moving, it is the person threatening me. He isn't even on the lease.
It's not my responsibility to run. I'm not wearing a chador to prevent men from getting evil thoughts from seeing my uncovered head, and I'm not moving out of my complex because the father downstairs can't imagine that the single girl upstairs isn't looking for him.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Yes, again and again the police, the courts, people's families, society as a whole, will tell women, "you're overreacting, you're the problem, don't make waves, there's nothing we can do, oh poor guy, it's not his fault, anyone can make a mistake," etc.
This just isn't true. A few say this, but the overwhelming message is exactly the opposite.
quote:Girls are constantly assaulted and killed. It happens with great frequency. Most college campuses have one or two a year that make the news, and several that don't. Most large cities have dozens a year. How many is acceptable before it would be okay in your mind for women to use force in response?
It's not a matter of "acceptable." It's a matter of what is the wise course of action for the woman in question. It's a wise course of action to carry a gun around when the costs and risks you bring upon yourself by having it are less than the degree to which is helps you, and it is not smart when the costs are greater than the benefits.
When the sniper was attacking in my area, dozens were killed in a matter of weeks. Some would not allow their kids to go to school. Did that protect them from a potentially terrible attack? To some extent. But when you consider the extremely low liklihood of that kid being attacked at that moment, even with all those attacks across the area, I'd argue that it was not worth the costs of missing school during that period. It's the same idea.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:It's not my responsibility to run. I'm not wearing a chador to prevent men from getting evil thoughts from seeing my uncovered head, and I'm not moving out of my complex because the father downstairs can't imagine that the single girl upstairs isn't looking for him.
Exactly - which is what I've been saying. You should feel no compulsion to take on any great burdens to avoid the threat - only measured responses, like not letting the guy in again for any reason.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I do want the police to talk to him, so he does not enter an apartment without permission again - to me or to anyone. Also, to make it clear that harassing me has consequences.
I have made one change - I park on the other side of the building now. When I do that, they can't see me from the balcony. No one will know I'm home until I'm in my apartment and the doors are dead-bolted. I worried for a second if that was running away, but it's not inconvenient to me and the benefits are enormous, so it's okay.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Kat, I'd say that the sanctity of your living space has been irreparably harmed. I couldn't live in an area where I didn't feel safe coming and going from my apartment. I just can't see how one of you is not going to have to leave, and I think the safest thing to do would be for you to leave. That way, he wouldn't know where you are.
You want to fight rather than leave. Is a little wounded pride going to hurt worse than any of the other things that could happen if this guy catches you unawares? Is it worse than not having peace of mind in your apartment? Because that's gone, isn't it? Isn't a little wounded pride worth peace of mind and definite security? I can't see how it isn't.
I happen to disagree that this kind of thing has to happen to single women. I think it's like a lightning strike. You just got unlucky. If you move, I don't think this will happen again.
Anyways. Hope everything works out. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Oh, yeah. Sue your neighbors for whatever you can get, too. At least to conver moving expenses. In my totally ignorant opinion, I think you definitely have a case, and at least you can have the satisfaction of fighting that guy in some capacity. Plus, this creates a record if he tries it again.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
No way! Do you know how expensive and difficult moving is? If anyone must move it is the creepy guy, not kat!
It's definitely true that this can happen anywhere, too. How many times should one have to move? Should all the single women living anywhere near this guy have to move?
[ April 13, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Storm, if the guy had planned to harm her, and gone there with the intention of doing so, (I hate to say this , Katie, but...) she probably would have been harmed. That said, he does seem unbalanced and sends the Olivet Creep-o-Meter pinging like mad, but these extra precautions she's taking should be enough, I think.
Plus, Katie's trusting her own instincts about the situation and the man, and she should have a better feel for the particulars than any of us.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:if the guy had planned to harm her, and gone there with the intention of doing so, (I hate to say this , Katie, but...) she probably would have been harmed.
I completely agree. I think he was creepy, but if he was actually looking to harm me, he wouldn't have left the door open when he came in, and he wouldn't have run so easily. The "confused" remark was irritating (because of the apparently-Hello-means-I-want-you thing), but telling. He didn't think he'd encounter resistance. When he did, he backed off completely. I'm glad I called the police and I still want an officer to talk to him, but I don't feel the need to press charges at the moment.
-------
This is the part I wasn't going to put on the thread...
I think it was a culture thing. This was the office manager's idea. When I told her the basic outlines of the story, she described the specifics almost exactly. Very typical behavior for someone from a specific culture who had a certain impression of a female. The impression was obviously wrong, but it has now been corrected. I honestly don't feel it will be a problem from now on, especially since parking on the other side of the building means I will never see them, and they can't see me.
He's still creepy, and I'm under no obligation to be accommodating to the cultural expectations, but I really think what has occurred will take care of it. If there is anything more that is a problem, he's not on the lease and can be asked to leave.
posted
O.K. But everyone sees that I'm speaking from the perspective of what is safest for Kat, right? Do you all really think that she wouldn't probably be safer somewhere else? (I realize Kat's already given her opinion and I respect that. Am just responding to comments after hers.) I'm only giving her the same advice I would give my mom or my step-sister.
edit: Typed above before Kat posted last. Again, I respect Kat's decision.
posted
I don't think she would be necessarily safer by moving. There are people like this guy, unfortunately, all over the place.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Storm you have never been a single woman living alone. I have. It doesn't matter where you live. Moving doesn't solve the problem unless you can afford an expensive gated community and even then there may be creeps living inside the gates. Creeps view it as vulnerablity and while probably don't flock to you quite like moths to light it seems to bring out the worst in people you wouldn't expect or even think were creepy normally.
Katie hasn't mentioned in the thread that the guy's name isn't even on the apartment lease. So its kind of hard for the apartment complex to evict him if he isn't on the lease and the lease allows for X number of people in the apartment.
posted
Really. I can't see how him not being on the lease doesn't make it easier for the apartment complex to force him out. If they don't work to kick him out, then the finger of blame can be pointed at them if something bad happens.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote: The confused remark was weird to me, too. All I can think is that the translator in his brain turned the occasional "Hello" on the stairs into "I want you."
I'm betting that this guy watches a LOT of porn.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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But I think Katie remarked about cultural differences? In some places, making eye contact is an indication of sexual intentions, or at least a woman's openness to the possibility.
She hasn't said where the guy was from or what his cultural background is, so it is at least POSSIBLE that judging this man by average white-American standards is unfair. He may have realized his mistake and that MAY be the end of it. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
"The weirdest thing happened to me today. The pizza lady delivered the pizza, and didn't offer to have sex with me."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Keep us updated, will you Kat? Just so we know you're okay and all -- and to record with us anything else suspicious this guy does....
I am single, but I live in the middle of nowhere, and I have five large dogs. However, I had still had men catch me off guard with moves similar to this in many other situations...... if they were to start intruding on personal space at home...oh, how unnerving the thought.
posted
Dag- My husband has had a couple of women attempt to seduce him when he delivered their pizzas.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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My mom did have the mail man ask her to teach him voice lessons today. He drives by every day and heard her singing and teaching lessons, so he asked her.
But I don't think we've tried to seduce repairpersons or deliverypersons. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Kat, I know I'm way late finding this thread, but I want to add my voice to those saying how happy we are that you're safe, and I also want to encourage you to follow your gut.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's so, so creepy. Yuck.
Posts: 2661 | Registered: Apr 2002
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