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I almost forgot about you guys, not that anyone would remember my whole 14 or so posts but you guys always seem to know everything so let me open up for a minute.
My grandmother who was sick for a long time with pancreatic cancer, died this thursday. Before she passed she told me that one of the things she regretted was that she wanted her home to be a happy place where everyone got along, even if they didn't like each other.
My brother and I are constantly at odds, and fistfights are almost a common occurance. He told me once, when he was very drunk, that he practicly tortured me every day and continues to to make me tougher, more resiliant to the world. I just don't have the patience to withstand my brothers constant onslaught of ribbing, despite earnest efforts. Everyone i've talked to gives me the same speech, "Just ignore him" and all that, but when I do, he eventually starts in on our parents ( who were both jailed from the time I was 2 till about 4 years ago ) or my dead grandfather, and suddenly nothing else matters but making him feel as much pain as possible.
So besides my obvious anger issues, what can I do to stop all the fighting between my brother and I, and help create the happy home my grandmother wanted?
posted
Oh, Son of Priam! This question hurts me so much. There is no easy answer. I have spent my life trying to find an answer to this question. But I can tell you a few things I've thought about and discovered over the years in my own case. I don't know if they will help you or not but I will share what I can, hoping it may be of some use.
When he deliberately tortures you and tries to make you angry, then your anger is not fighting against him, it's giving in to him, it's doing what he wants. Just as the overwhelming urge which Frodo felt to put on the ring in the dell at Weathertop was not his own desire but imposed from outside, from the ringwraiths. To oppose your brother, you must find another approach. Another method.
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To be effective at opposing him you must first extricate yourself mentally from his shadow, and his influence. How far are you in this process? Do you have your own friends, who realize how wrong is your brother's way of being? Are you able to spend blocks of time alone? Can you get away from him when you need to, and just chill? The first step is independence of mind... realizing that your selfness does not come from him, and the way he treats you does not reflect on who you are at all, but rather on who he is. Only your own actions and choices reflect on you. You can change those to be whatever you want them to be. You are in control of your own mind and heart, of your own self.
The second thing is to take that anger, the hot rage that he elicits inside you, and make it cold and rational. Anger, like fire, makes a good servant and a poor master. Rather than letting it get the best of you, you must take control of it, and use it towards self-preservation (first) then towards getting yourself into a better situation, improving your immediate environment (second), and lastly toward changing him and teaching him how he must act toward you.
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These are some steps you can take to preserve your selfness, and grow back what has been destroyed, and also to begin the training that he must undergo.
First, if it's possible for you to leave, to be alone, either by going to a room where nobody can come after you, or by leaving the house entirely, then that is one essential tool you can use to begin the process.
Establish a new rule that nobody is allowed to scream profanity at you, for instance, or call you ugly names. The next time someone does that, calmly and quietly tell them they may not scream profanity at you anymore, that they should speak with quiet respect or wait until they are calmer. If they continue to scream at you, or taunt you, or call you names, as they certainly will if they've done this all along, then you say nothing else, but just go. Stay gone as long as you feel necessary for calm to be restored to your home. If you have a friend's house (with sane people who live there, preferably) that you can seek refuge in during these times, that's great. Otherwise be sure to prepare clothes, food, etc. for this eventuality and go quietly in good order taking what you need. Once you decide to leave, ignore all other communications made to you.
When you come back the first time, you will probably get screamed at (or may) the moment you return. Be expecting this. Turn right around and leave again. Do this calmly and as many times as necessary until you are spoken to in a rational quiet respectful way. You are in control of the situation. The others are out of control. Their anger or alcohol or other demons rule them. You are ruled by reason and sense. You are the adult and they are the children.
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The corollary to this new rule, of course, is that you must not scream profanity at others, or call them ugly names yourself. This may be difficult to train yourself out of, if you have long grown up in a dysfunctional family like many of us. You may mess up. That is okay, but you must begin again. Remember you are the one in control of yourself. And you are the adult. The others are the children. It's up to you to establish the rules of engagement here. Since your way will be so much better, you will have truth and justice and rightness on your side, which will help a lot. Deep down, they all know right from wrong. When you speak with authority and insist on truth and right, then they know they are wrong and eventually they must crumble.
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The problem with this, is that my brother has nothing to convey and no wish to converse, if I leave and walk off nothing is gained for me, and he feals accomplishment because he has affectively made the situation so unbearable that I was forced to relent, and leave. which was his desire in the first place.
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I don't know how well any of this applies to your situation. Can you describe it further?
You may be in a situation of having to be the adult, to teach yourself how to act like an adult, with no good models to base your behavior upon. If you have a teacher or family friend who is calm and reasonable and kind and in control of themselves, you may want to watch them and learn from them and seek their counsel.
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Well, he wants a response from you. He wants to get a rise out of you. If you reward his good behavior (or less bad behavior) by continuing to interact with him and punish his bad behavior (or worst behavior) by refusing to have anything to do with him, then he will change how he acts toward you.
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Well, there is almost a pre-defined sequence to this. I come home from school, and am immediately faced with some comment to the effect of "your fat/gay/stupid" which is always ignored, I grab a soda from the fridge and my brother says something along the lines of "Eating again fatty?" which also gets ignored. then I sit at my computer, and check e-mail go to some of the websites I hit constantly and he will walk in and sit down and start in with whatever hits him that might be annoying, and he can sit there for about 4 1/2 hours straight ( litterally) and after about that much time if I haven't snapped, he hasn't gone off to work, or I haven't gone off to work, he will walk by and tip over my chair, smack me in the back of the head, punch me as he walks by, or he will get up and go and steal stuff from my room. My life consists, of fighting him, and trying to prove that half the stuff in his room is really mine, and i'd like to have it back.
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Uncle Orson hit the nail on the head when he said "You don't understand, I don't want to beat Peter, I want Peter to love me." That is exactly how it does feel. Usually the next step after establishing civil respectful behavior is forgiving. For younger siblings or children of abusive parents this is not usually difficult. They don't usually cease to love the one abusing them. They just want their love in return.
So the next step after forgiveness is giving up the expectation of love in return. There is nothing you can do to make them love you. The ball is totally in their court on this. They will never love you as long as you try to seek their favor, and need their approval. They only use that as an excuse to deride you and disrespect you in their minds. Give up entirely the hope or wish that they will love you. Gain your self respect and the love of others entirely independently of them. If you are lucky then years later they will come to look up to YOU, for your goodness, your sense, your independence, and your ability to negotiate the difficulties of existence better than they know how to, and for your strength and your ability to lead a happy life. (They don't know how to live happy lives. That is completely beyond them. They are miserable, in fact.) They will be the ones needing you. However it is not really very gratifying when it comes down to it. By then they will be rather a sad responsibility.
[ May 23, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
Can you lock him out of your room, or go somewhere he can't come?
For the hitting, do you get in all out fistfights? Can he always beat you? Describe how intense these get and how this usually plays out. I have a method that works for that, too, but I didn't use it successfully against abusive older sibling until I was 36 (no lie) and he started dragging me by my wrists across the table saw (luckily it was not turned on at the time). This would only work if there is a limit to how far he would escalate, and if you can calmly wait (endure it quietly) until his abuse of you is fairly severe, then ruthlessly escalate it and walk away. Make it clear that you do not want to fight, but if he insists then you are willing to take it way beyond anything he imagined or foresaw. I kicked my older brother in the testicles when he did this to me, and walked away. He has not touched me again since then (in 10 years).
If he would not limit his escalation of violence, this is probably not a wise strategy. My brother could have picked up a hammer and broken my skull after this, but he was so shocked at my determination and escalation that he did not. After all, he had been beating me up routinely for 36 years. I had never shown that ruthless coldness and determination to hurt him before.
I never wanted to hurt him. I never wanted to fight at all. I just wanted his respect and friendship.
[ May 23, 2004, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
I'm sure this sounds shocking to most people here. I expect Tres to jump in and explain how fighting never solves anything. You should expect this as well. Expect everyone who loves you, who respects you and whose respect you desire, to tell you that you have done wrong.
They will tell you this. They will get angry at you. But they won't protect you from the abuse. They won't keep it from happening again. They won't stand up for you. They will only get angry at you for taking any sort of stand for your own self. They only want it to all go away and not be true so they don't have to deal with it. So they let it continue.
After the fact, maybe years after, they will perhaps come around and see that you did only what was required, and that it worked, and you were right. In the end they will respect you too for what you were able to do.
[ May 23, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
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quote: I have a method that works for that, too, but I didn't use it successfully against abusive older sibling until I was 36 (no lie) and he started dragging me by my wrists across the table saw (luckily it was not turned on at the time)....
They will tell you this. They will get angry at you. But they won't protect you from the abuse. They won't keep it from happening again. They won't stand up for you. They will only get angry at you for taking any sort of stand for your own self. They only want it to all go away and not be true so they don't have to deal with it. So they let it continue.
Oh, Anne Kate. I'm so sorry.
For what it's worth, I think you did well, and I judge your words above to be very wise. When I first read SoP's post, I thought "He needs some ak."
Sometimes, though, I forget how very painfully accurate your assessments of humans can be. It hurts to read, but I'm afraid you are right. *hug
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Son of Priam (I love your name, by the way), I think the most difficult thing of all is the realization that you are totally alone, that absolutely nobody is on your side. It's really not right, I don't think, for a child to come into the world and be treated so harshly from their very first memories, and to have noone at all be on their side.
So I just want to tell you here and now that whatever happens, I'm on your side. Your brother and your parents may have their advocates, and that's as it should be, but as for me, I'm 100% in your court. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you at all. I'm with you.
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All it takes is one friend to have as a touchstone, soemtimes. That can make all the difference. Sounds like you had to go it alone, though. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Ruthlessness is needed some times. Just look at Ender. When he kicks the kid in the chest in his school, right at the start of Ender's Game, he does it to ensure that they will never pick on him again.
And yes, he got what he wanted. But at what price? It's a terrible bargain. One that can only harm all those involved.
Ak speaks wisely and from experience. Do what you have to, but never forget that you are a human. Never let your hate and anger rule you.
May good luck follow you, and may you have a happy life with many long years. My best wishes go to you.
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posted
ak, I did something similar. My brother is a year younger than me. I endured his jabs and pokes and verbal abuse.
He was on the wrestling team, and proud of it.
One day he was abusing me in front of his friends. All of a sudden, I had had enough, and I took him down and pinned him right there on the front lawn. He never physically abused me again. Granted, I had the advantage of surprise and a lot of adrenalin running. I am sure he was much stronger than I. But it worked.
posted
Thank you for all the advice AK, It does kind of seem like a shocking retaliation is what is needed, I don't want to have to resort to violence, but he went out an bought himself an airsoft gun ( it like a air powered pellet shooting hand gun ) and I really don't fell like being shot, even if the pellets don't penetrate. I know violence isn't really the answer but I've already been shot at with this thing, and it hurts...
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Perhaps if he shoots you with it again, you could take it away from him and smash it to bits while he's watching. Violence to objects that are clearly stand-ins for someone's head can be very effective object lessons while still not injuring anyone.
[ May 24, 2004, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
*touched to the very core* Priam, I am so sorry. ((((((((((((((Priam)))))))))))))))) Let me know if there's anything I can do to help, e-mail and IM in my profile... I really identify with fighting in the family, and not knowing how to stop it.
Your post made me cry. I wish you the best of luck, and aka's a wise one... listen to her, I know I turn to her when I need advice. *hugs again* It'll be ok.
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I would seriously worry about what the brother's reaction would be to watching his new toy smashed to pieces in front of him. I doubt that he would decide to cede the power to SoP in that situation, but instead use it as an excuse to escalate his physical punishments. As in, if this guy is much bigger, stronger, and angrier than SoP, I would bet that SoP would get seriously hurt if he smashed the airgun.
Though I wasn't much of a bully as a kid, my little brother once grabbed my new laptop from me when we were arguing and ran into the backyard threatening to break it. If I could have gotten my hands on him... there was a brief moment when I wanted to hurt him for that. And I generally didn't want to hurt him.
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Ayelar, I don't think you heard him right. His brother SHOOTS him with a PELLET GUN! And your solution to this is "better not make him mad"? Is that wise or even sane? I think not.
Son of Priam, you see what I mean. People don't seem to really register what is even happening. My suggestion to you was the mildest of all the things that sprang to mind. Indeed, if I were there and saw your brother shoot you with a pellet gun, I'm afraid I would take it away from him and smash it to bits on his head. Someone needs to stop your brother. Shooting someone with a pellet gun is life-threatening abuse. This is not a game or a joke. It's extremely serious. Don't let people (and your unfortunate long familiarity with being treated this way) lull you into complacency. Call the police if you can't bring yourself to the point of ice cold rage and determination that it will take to bring this to an end yourself.
And grownups say idiot things like "don't provoke him". <mutters and gives Ayelar a black look>
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posted
If you call the police, be prepared to have them treat it as something minor, as well. But they have to make a record of it. There will be an official written report. So that's something.
Our society will almost unanimously ignore this and pretend it doesn't really happen, or it really isn't all that bad, just youthful pranks, all siblings have little squabbles, etc. etc. That's criminally wrong. It really is. I wish there were something I could do to change that. When Anna gets out of law school she's going to be a child advocate, and maybe she can change it. I don't know how.
If you tell me your name and address, and your brother's name, I will come over there and kick his ass myself. Or Slashy will. That doesn't help society but it will help you. Just say the word.
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posted
Wow, ak, I'm not the enemy here. You seem a little paranoid. And I find your advice rather disturbing, given how little we know about SoP, his brother, or this whole situation. You assure him that this specific action, breaking his brother's airgun, will make his brother back off and treat him with respect, that it's actually the most mature way he can handle the situation. What?!? To me, it seems like, if anything, his brother will react by becoming MORE physically violent against SoP! Hasn't this occurred to you? That the brother might use this act of defiance on SoP's part as an excuse to really hurt him, not just harrass and antagonize him?
Since the only information I have about this situation is the posts on this thread, I can't even begin to offer any suggestions for what SoP should do. I do feel comfortable, however, in guessing that making the kind of move suggested while remaining just as physically defenseless seems like a BAD IDEA.
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posted
Indeed, we disagree very sharply on this issue, Ayelar. And indeed our knowledge is limited. What I have that you seem to lack, though, is specific lifelong experience in a similar situation. And yes I do think the people who counsel complacency and do nothing to help are doing wrong. I remember being burned and shocked with electric shocks and so on when I was a small child. I look back on that and it makes me quite angry that the adults all around who knew what was going on were complacent about it. That they either ignored it or acted like it was somehow my fault or else inevitable or really in the end acceptable to them. They didn't mind me living with that, is what it came down to. That discouraged me from trying to stop it by taking action or by complaining to people who would NOT dismiss it as unimportant. Yes, that's very wrong. I do think they share in the fault. They are, if not bad guys, then certainly not good guys. That's true.
Bullies do what they do as a form of entertainment. They like to do it for fun. They don't care to risk their own precious hides being truly hurt. They like to pick on people who don't fight back, or not much.
The only way to stop it is to cause them fear and/or pain. You don't even have to win the fight. You just have to be willing to do whatever it takes, to be ruthless and cold, to take control of the situation, to not play into their hands, to hurt them badly, if that's what's required.
Oh, yes, and Son of Priam, they will say you are paranoid, they will claim you need therapy, that you are aggressive, and other idiocy like that. They will act like calmly suffering severe abuse for years and then finally deciding you've had enough and kicking someone's behind thoroughly is somehow WORSE than abusing someone for years with no provocation.
[ May 25, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
This is sort of freaky, ak. Where did I say that SoP should be "complacent"? Where did I make the judgement that fighting back would be morally "WORSE than abusing someone for years with no provocation."??
All I've said is that I think that the specific action that you've told SoP to take, based on your VERY LIMITED knowledge of his specific situation, could be very dangerous to his physical safety. I don't really see how you can assume so much about how his brother will react to said action without knowing anything more about him than his age and his penchant for harassing his brother.
At no point have I dismissed this as "youthful pranks", in fact, I haven't judged the situation at all beyond voicing my concern about the ramifications of smashing the airgun as an act of aggression. I am not the enemy of SoP that you seem to want to make of me.
This reminds me of the thread in which I remember you saying that all bullies were hopeless non-humans who deserved to die. Perhaps this is an issue for which your judgment is being heavily influenced by your personal feelings. Maybe you need to know more about SoP's brother and family life before advocating such extreme measures.
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Then what is your counsel of what he should do, Ayelar? You have not pointed him to any path of resolution at all. You've only tried to dissuade him from the one path that I know that does work.
It's not without some risk, but the risk is far less than continuing to allow yourself to be shot at with a pellet gun, and so on. The violence is already very unacceptable and it's escalating.
Yes, Son of Priam, you see what happens. This is what everyone around you will do. They want to turn it back on you and make you the problem. I have found it is a mistake to listen to them.
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quote:You've only tried to dissuade him from the one path that I know that does work.
How can you possibly say that? How can you believe that? You don't even know this kid's NAME!
I have specifically avoided suggesting a course of action for SoP, because I am aware that I only know enough of the facts to be dangerous. Anything I could tell him would be a shot in the dark. I've never met him or his brother, and I never will. There are huge missing gaps in the story that I would need to fill in before I could even begin to try to figure out what my response to the situation would be.
But you, based on exactly the same amount of information, know EXACTLY what the right course of action is? How to fix this up all neat and tidy, with no broken bones?
I respect your personal experiences, ak, but I feel like you're way overstepping your bounds here. One woman's life history is not the same life history as anyone else's, and you cannot just say that, based on a few paragraphs of information, you KNOW that what worked for you will work for him!
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Again you offer no help to our friend who has come to us for advice. You have nothing to say to him. You only chastise me for telling him a path that works.
Doing nothing is also a choice, Ayelar, and it also can have disasterous consequences.
[ May 25, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
Son of Priam, what is your home situation? Who else lives in the house other than you and your brother? Do you attend any sort of church? Are there any teachers, councilors, etc. at your school that you feel any sort of connection with? What about friends' parents? Any of them with whom you're close?
The reason I ask all of this is that I'm trying to figure out more of the parameters of the situation, to see what potential resources you have available to you.
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All we've talked about so far is the negative side, how to stop the constant abuse. But there's a lot to the positive side as well. There's more to a happy home than simply a lack of abuse, though that is certainly a minimum requirement.
But there are a lot of things you can do in that direction, too, once the violence and humiliation have stopped. I think the most important thing of all is for everyone to treat each other with respect and consideration. I think it's great when you surprise each other with kindnesses. So that's one thing that can bring a lot of joy to a home. Take the time to do some small service for people from time to time. Make them some brownies or do some chore that they would otherwise have to do, or bring them a little gift, maybe just something cool you've found that you think they might think is neat.
Good food is a very cheap and fun way to bring happiness into a home. Homemade bread is really delicious, for example, and the ingredients are quite inexpensive. I learned to make biscuits from scratch, and they are so good that way! I wish I could make good cornbread, too. I guess those are southern things, though. Anyway, good food of any sort is a great family happiness.
Another thing that makes a home happy is making music or singing together. We had piano, guitars, recorder, harmonica, trombone and voices and the times we would have impromptu jam sessions were some of my favorite memories.
Family councils are another good way to build happiness into your home life. Once a month or so, get everyone together and talk about things that matter to you, work out rules and agreements, discuss issues, etc. Let everyone be heard, and let everyone try to come up with ideas to make things better. As a kid and not the head of the family, I suppose you could suggest the idea and see if the head of the family would agree to it.
Eat meals together as much as possible. That is something you can do as a family that really brings you close. Make one night a week into a family night, and do fun things together on that night. Play games or go to the movies or anything at all so long as it's fun and you're together.
But the crisis situation to me is how your brother treats you. That needs to stop right away. You need to address it and find a way to make it better, whatever that might take.
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My youngest sister often bothered me and my other sister. She hit us if she was angry about anything, threw insults for no reason, a lot of stuff. My general response was to hit back when she hit me. It worked ok. not great. My sister's response was a lot harder, but it worked. She'd stay calm, rarely hit back, but made it clear that pleasantness would be answered with her being nice back and bothering her would be answered with her being unpleasant. Like if the youngest was bratty, later on, my sister would refuse to do simple favors, because she'd been bratty. Or if the youngest had been good, or done something, Jen would read to her, or stuff like that. I don't know if it would work for you. I don't know your situation very well. But it might be worth a shot.
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but you guys always seem to know everything so let me open up for a minute.
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I'll think on this, but I hope it gets better soon.
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