posted
I guess now it'll come down to those voters who vote their fear and those who vote their defiance.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
This is also a significant tape because it shows pretty clearly that the traditional rhetoric claiming the terrorists attacked us because they "hate freedom" is quite wrong.
Bin Laden states:
quote:We fought you because we are free and do not accept injustice. We want to restore freedom to our nation. Just as you waste our security, we will waste your security.
quote:I am amazed at you. Although almost four years have passed since the [11 September] incidents, Bush is still practising distortion and confusion.
He also continues to conceal from you the real reason [for the 11 September attacks]. Thus, the motives still exist for repeating what happened.
I will speak to you about the reasons behind these incidents. I will honestly tell you about the minutes in which the decision was made so that you will consider. I say to you that God knows that the idea of striking the towers never occurred to us.
Your security is in your own hands
But, after things had gone too far and we saw the injustice of the US-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I started thinking of that.
The events that influenced me directly trace back to 1982 and subsequent events when the United States gave permission to the Israelis to invade Lebanon, with the aid of the sixth US fleet.
At those difficult moments, many meanings that are hard to describe went on in my mind. However, these meanings produced an overwhelming feeling to reject injustice and generated a strong determination to punish the unjust ones.
While I was looking at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the unjust one in a similar manner by destroying towers in the United States so that it would feel some of what we felt and to be deterred from killing our children and women...
We did not find it difficult to deal with Bush and his administration, because it is similar to regimes in our countries, half of which are governed by the military and the other half of which are governed by the sons of kings and presidents; and we have a long experience with them.
In both categories, you find many who are characterised by hubris, arrogance, greed, and unlawful acquisition of money. This similarity transpired since Bush Senior's visit to the region.
While some of our people were dazzled by the United States and hoped that these visits would affect our countries, he, instead, was affected by these royal and military regimes, envying them for remaining in their posts for scores of years, embezzling public money without being held accountable or monitored.
Accordingly, he transferred dictatorship and the repression of freedoms to his son by introducing the Patriot Act under the pretext of fighting terrorism.
Bush Senior deemed it appropriate to assign his sons to states. He also did not forget to convey the [election] rigging experience from the leaders of the [Arab] region to Florida to benefit from it at critical times...
We had agreed with the chief amir [leader - of the 11 September hijackers] Mohammed Atta that he should accomplish all the operations within 20 minutes before Bush and his administration could take notice.
It never occurred to us that the supreme commander of the US armed forces would leave 50,000 of his citizens in the two towers to face those great horrors alone, at a time when they needed him badly.
This is because it seemed to him that being preoccupied with the little child's talk about her goat and its butting was more important than being preoccupied with the planes and their ramming into the skyscrapers.
This gave with three times the period required for carrying out the operations, praise be to God.
Your security does not lie in the hands of Kerry, Bush, or al-Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Each and every state that does not tamper with our security will have automatically assured its own security.
Folks often claim terrorists are soulless monsters bent on the destruction of freedom and goodness, with no real reasons for their actions. However, statements like this make it crystal clear that at least the top leadership of Al Qaeda has very real reasons for their actions. However angry we are, to deny this would be to deny the simple facts. They are not bent on the destruction of our freedom. They are only bent on getting us to stop "tampering" with their "security." And they seem okay with commiting evil acts to achieve this goal, in the name of revenge.
It is then up to us to decide to degree they are entitled to make such a demand, whether it is a valid complaint, and whether we should comply in the face of their crimes.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Let me see if I get this straight. He's blaming Bush Senior and Junior for:
a rigged election in 2000
permission granted to Israel in 1982
and the Patriot Act....
That seems odd to me. The election thing is up for debate, but the Israeli/US alliance is hardly the fault of either Bush. And wasn't the Patriot Act a direct result of the 9/11 attacks? How can he blame the Bush administration for 'cracking down' on terrorism AFTER an act of terrorism killed 3000 people?
Xap, I don't think the terrorists are "soulless monsters", although I wouldn't put them to far away from that noun, I don't think anyone is soulless.
I also believe they have reasons that they think validate the shedding of innocent blood, but I think accepting a terrorist's reasons at face value is a little .. optomistic.
Keep in mind, almost no liberals on this board believe Bush actually has the reasons behind his actions he says he does, and to a lesser extent (since Kerry has had less actions to look at) conservites don't believe Kerry believes his reasons either. I'm all for taking someone at face value when they haven't disproven why we should, but I'm afraid to me organizing the deaths of thousands of innocent people in suicide bombings crosses that line.
(Anyone who comes in and tells me that's exactly what Bush has done, that's nice but it's A) unrelated, and B) I already knew you didn't trust Bush, C) who says I do?)
quote:I'm all for taking someone at face value when they haven't disproven why we should, but I'm afraid to me organizing the deaths of thousands of innocent people in suicide bombings crosses that line.
Now, hold on. Killing people doesn't mean you are a liar. It means you are a killer (which OBL is).
The reason we suspect Bush and Kerry to be tricking us about what they mean is because their actions contradict what they are saying. Kerry says he is big on defense but the conservatives point to his votes against defense programs. Bush says he didn't want to rush to war, but liberals point to him ignoring evidence that might have undermined his war.
But what has bin Laden done that indicates he doesn't mean what he is saying here? What has he done that indicates he doesn't really believe his war is caused by what he deems American "interference"? We can't reject the motive he gives and assign him a different motive just because the motive he gives isn't quite evil enough for us.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I would say that if someone doesn't have a strong enough moral objection to stop them from killing innocence, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in their moral objections to lieing.
[EDIT: I don't necessarily want to "assign" a new motive to OBL, I just don't think he deserve's my trust, whatever he says his current one to be]
posted
Innocent and guilty are relative. Plenty of Americans would be fine with nuking the entire Middle East, apparently for the crime of wearing turbans and being predominately Muslim. More are willing to excuse collateral damage in Iraq.
Personally, I trust bin Laden as much as I trust Bush. I also believe that both sincerely believe they are doing the right thing, and if the right thing just happens to have them be the guy in charge, that is just the plan of God or Allah.
Posts: 281 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Fran Liebowitz had a good line on Charlie Rose last night:"9/11 was a faith-based initiative."
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Xaposert, I agree with what you said. It was disterbing how well I understude his argument and i suspect that is simmler for many Americans. Im changeing nothing about my views or vote, but who ever gets elected... I hope he goes after Bin Laden this time.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:This is also a significant tape because it shows pretty clearly that the traditional rhetoric claiming the terrorists attacked us because they "hate freedom" is quite wrong.
Of course! Because, after all, we should take press statements by Osama bin Laden and other murderous terrorists at face value, right?
quote:However, statements like this make it crystal clear that at least the top leadership of Al Qaeda has very real reasons for their actions. However angry we are, to deny this would be to deny the simple facts.
It's amazing to me that you assign more integrity, more value, to press statements made by OBL and al Qaeda than you would press statements issued by the RNC. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, they are *gasp* disguising their ultimate motives? I realize this is quite a leap to take, but possibly mass murdering terrorists may be less than trustworthy, and may in fact say that which they think will further their cause.
Or in more anatomical terms, remove your cranium from your posterior.
quote:Now, hold on. Killing people doesn't mean you are a liar. It means you are a killer (which OBL is).
It means you're ruthless, and you think normal rules of decent behavior do not apply to you. Candor kind of falls into that freaking category!
quote:What has he done that indicates he doesn't really believe his war is caused by what he deems American "interference"?
Interference in what, exactly? We were invited into Saudi Arabia. Intefering with the Taliban? A tyrannical, unelected and unrepresentative government? Interfering with Islamic-fanatic efforts to slaughter Jewish men, women, and children?
Those are freaking evil bloody motives. *&%! !! just because he's a murderer, don't mean he's a liar! Words acceptable to this community cannot express how exasperating and baffling that idea is, Tresopax.
Oh, and I wonder: where are the people who said complained about the invasion of Afghanistan on the grounds that we aren't sure it was OBL?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Innocent and guilty are relative. Plenty of Americans would be fine with nuking the entire Middle East, apparently for the crime of wearing turbans and being predominately Muslim. More are willing to excuse collateral damage in Iraq.
Plenty of people say they are, but I think that if you gave the issue some more thought, you'd realize that if those same people had their fingers on the button, things would be different.
So yes, while many Americans are racist, they're not as racist and barbaric as you so clearly portray them.
quote:Personally, I trust bin Laden as much as I trust Bush.
Then you're an idiot.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Im changeing nothing about my views or vote, but who ever gets elected... I hope he goes after Bin Laden this time.
Yeah, we're not going after bin Laden now, after all. I mean, a powerful nation has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, much less prosecuting a war in Iraq and pursuing a fugitive.
War in Iraq does not preclude pursuit of OBL!!!!!!!
If there's a murderer in your town, do the police drop everything and pursue him? Or do they do, like, more than one thing at once?!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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