posted
I was going over some thoughts on Mr. Port's Eugenics thread and Heinlein while in the shower this morning when it struck me.
No, not the cold water.
Neo Cons are following the political strategy of a Sci-Fi writer.
I mean that's good, since I consider myself a luke-warm fan of Heinleins.
Its good because many of us would prefer to live in a Sci-Fi universe.
But its bad because I consider myself an enemy to the Neo-Cons.
Its bad because, instead of a Federation or Republic, insted of Benne Geserett or Jedi, instead of Dune or Star Trek--we get Job.
Specifics:
First, what are Neo-Cons? They are a rumored wing of the Republican party made up of 60's activists, who wish to use the US to promote thier own agenda.
Google "Neo Con" for specifics.
Their numbers include Rumsfeld and Cheney and others--the White House Hawks most responsible for us being in Iraq.
Neo-Cons: promoted the overwhelming power of true free trade and capitalism. It spurs Democracy.
Heinlien: TNSTASFL (Theres no such thing as a free lunch). Read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
Neo-Cons: The noble military is the best way to enforce peace.
Heinlien: "Starship Troopers" was an ode to the nobility of the common soldier and the military life, and its superiority to wishy/washy politicians. (This is the book, not the thing I hate to consider a movie).
Neo-Cons: Strength through Secrecy.
Heinlien: From "The 6th Collumn" through "Puppet Masters" and more have relied on secret military and governmental organizations, run by the most moralistic of men, to save our world.
Neo-Cons: Religion is useful in motivating followers, but is not our guide or master.
Heinlien: "Job" where God is powerful, and the second coming is a nice side note, but the real power lies with the mysterious "Editor". More to note is "The 6th Collumn" where a religion is created only in order to overthrow the government.
Even the question of Gay Marriage can be seen as a Heinleinian idea. While Heinlein was not against homosexual behavior, nor limiting marriage for he proposed group marriages and multi-partner marriages, he applauded, lauded, and emphasized the importance of sex's main roll--reproduction. The only marriage he would have been against is one unable to produce children.
The more I study Heinlein's work, the more I am convinced that the Neo-Con's are fans. This flows from small clues, like Bush's cutting of all budgets, but talking of spending billions to get to Mars.
The down side of Heinlein's work is that it borders on racist at times (The 6th Collumn and one who's name I don't remember, where he goes into the future to a time when blacks have replaced whites as over lords and slave owners, except they eat their slaves) and the ARE FICTION!!!
Heinlien quotes as expressed by the present political debate:
Gun Control: "A well armed society is a polite society"
Torte Reform: "They didn't talk much about that time. They just call it 'The day we killed all the lawyers.'"
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posted
Neocons don't believe in free trade, they believe in American dominated trade. Neocons are all for, for instance, tariffs on goods entering the US for various reasons (see, for instance, the recent steel tariffs).
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posted
Heinlein does espouse some ideas that could dove-tail in nicely with the Neo-Cons efforts today, but I don't think those Neo-Con clowns would move very far forward in his societies.
There's always some form of morality behind Heinlein's stories and I think the Neo-Cons would be quickly exposed for the Charlatans they are. Warmongers and profiteers were sneered at in "Starship Troopers". Over-involved governments were always the villains (even if they were just lurking in the background).
Oh, and the book whose name you couldn't remember, was "Farnham's Freehold," an atrocious piece of garbage in my opinion. When Heinlein was good, he was among the best ever. But when he had a stinkeroo, he was awful.
And don't even get me started on his "Dirty Old Man" phase.
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posted
Was "Farnham's Freehold" that book where there was a planet where everything was perfect because they had no incest taboo?
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posted
I'm thinking of this book where nobody would trade with a planet because they were sooooo despicable because of their incestual practices, even though they thought it perfectly acceptable to encourage fetishes that required people to maim and cripple themselves.
But even though this incestuous planet couldn't trade with the outside world, they had everything they need. They had no mental health problems, because those are all obviously caused by the incest taboo. Because of this, they produces 3 or 4 times what a normal planet would. Even isolated as they were, they were rich.
And they got to have sex with their parents.
Was this a Heinlein book?
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posted
I recall quite a few bits of incest (most notably in Time Enough for Love, which I didn't actually finish because I got so bored with the endless discussion of reproduction between close relations), but I can't think of any that sound like the one you're describing.
quote:The more I study Heinlein's work, the more I am convinced that the Neo-Con's are fans. This flows from small clues, like Bush's cutting of all budgets, but talking of spending billions to get to Mars.
this is why i don't drink and hatrack any more.
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A Heinleinist would never create social programs just to placate the left. (No Child Left Behind, Prescription Drugs)
A Heinleinist would never even CONCIDER a national ID program as the Bush admin did. "When a society starts requiring ID cards it's time to move on" -- Lazarus Long
A Neo-Con would never spend so much time exploring homosexuality as Heinlein does in his later "dirty old man" works. And a common Neo-Con argument against same-sex marriage is the idea it would lead to polyamorous marriage. (ie: "S-Groups" from "Friday" and many other of his Dirty Old Man books.)
Heinlein was a libertarian. Not just from government but from social taboos as well. Thus all the incest books. The reason the incest world worked was because the people were genetically perfect. They had no bad recessives to harm the offspring.
Scientifically that wouldn't work for too many generations. Thing about genetics is, there are always mutations. Eventually SOMETHING would mutate and they would no longer be "genetically perfect".
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1) No Child Left Behind is very Heinlienian in concept--that of responsibility being taken by those in charge (the Teachers and School Admins) and Merit over niceness--no social promotions, but testing and proving of ones ability to go to the next grade.
The selling of it has been all leftist socialism.
2) Don't confuse all of the Republican party, or President Bush's administration with the Neo-Cons. The Homosexual issues, and the social conservatism comes from a different group than the Neo-Cons. The neo-cons just use the social conservatives to back them up and push the neo-con agenda.
3) Did we really consider national ID cards? Was that the Neo-COns or Ashcrofts Security Fanatics.
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posted
The puppet masters were space aliens that attached themselves to your back and controlled you. It's a cliche now but as far as I know (and I don't have the book in front of me to check the copyright) it was one of if not The first with that concept.
There was also a horrific movie based on the book released in the 90s.
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posted
"Puppet Masters" a book by Heinlien about aliens that attach themselves to humans and try to take over the world. Was considered an analogy of Soviet influence in the US at one point. Made into a terrible movie. In the book, the final solution was for everyone to always run around naked. That got dropped out of the movie for some reason.
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posted
I hear the puppet masters make people loose their funny. All right, only naked people allowed in this thread from now on.
DIfficult question--Is it worse to risk President Bush being under the influence of the puppet masters, or seeing him naked to prove he isn't.
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posted
CT -- in my family, we have a tradition called "marshmallow movie night". We watch a really bad movie and throw marshallows at the screen when the movie does something painful, stupid, cheesey, etc.
Monday night we watched Flash Gordon. It was fun, even though a little painful.
Some other marshmallow movies we've watched: Quest of the Delta Knights Dungeons and Dragons one of the Earnest movies Plan 9 From Outer Space
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posted
An important point is that a Heinleinist would never ever approve of a draft. So at the very last Rumsfield and Cheney could NOT be Heinleinists.
I don't know, the theory of a covert governmental group aligned behind the precepts of a sci-fi author...um, I guess it's about as beleiveable as following a religion started by a sci-fi author, ne?
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posted
Porter, is it possible that you're thinking of the Ted Sturgeon short story "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?"?
CT--your funny is not lost; I merely repressed their ability to perceive your funny. For my own mysterious, inscrutable ends, of course.
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posted
Noemon -- it might be, but I don't know. Is the main character a trader, and the story ends with him trying to convince the trading guild to trade with the Planet of Incest?
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Porter--I'm about 90% sure that it does, but it's been a few years now since I've reread it. The only place I've seen it, that I recall, is in the original Dangerous Visions anthology, if that helps you place it.
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quote:Heinlein: "Starship Troopers" was an ode to the nobility of the common soldier and the military life, and its superiority to wishy/washy politicians. (This is the book, not the thing I hate to consider a movie).
In case you didn't notice, the book is quite heavy handed in its sarcasm for the warring elite. There are quite a few passages where he made it quite clear, at least to me, that it was at times a parody of militaristic cultures.
Besides, in ST in order to be a "citizen" you had to actually prove you served in the millitary to get any of the prividledges....
Wait, that wouldn't be all that bad....BushJr wouldn't even be a citizen, let alone President....
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