posted
This morning, Christy and I noticed a certain lack of water pressure in our shower. I headed to the basement, and indeed we have a very thin crack all the way around the approximate center of one PVC elbow, now crusted (and mostly blocked) with ice. As the ice thaws in our above-freezing basement, it drips -- but not at any really frightening rate.
Is this enough by itself to dramatically affect our water pressure? And should I be panicking or doing something remarkably handy to address it right away? The plumbers to whom I've spoken in town want $150 just to come out to look at it on a Sunday, so it'd be worth quite a lot if there were some way for us to address the leak on our own without performing major surgery.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Do you have a Home Depot handy? They can give you some pointers - I think it should be fairly easy to fix - just remember to turn the water main off first - and keep some buckets handy.
I don't think I'd let it slide though. You don't want a swimming pool in your basement.
An iceskating rink perhaps . . .
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I am not a plumber, or particularly handy around the house. Nor have I lived in a part of the country where water freezes in pipes in recent memory.
But I'd imagine that the key words in your post are "(and mostly blocked) with ice." That sure sounds like it would cause a pressure drop! And a corresponding pressure RISE behind the blockage.
I'd hate to try to guess whether the melt/drip rate is high enough to relieve the pressure, or whether it's more likely to build up and crack explosively. But I'm thinking the odds are not great.
Of course, this is all speculation on my part.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Well, you could always turn off the water to that joint then replace it with one of the spares you have . . . right .
Unless you notice something terribly wrong, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but you might make sure that water moves through the pipe every now and then (turning the shower on for a bit every hour or so) when its really cold, to keep the ice from spreading.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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You could wrap it in a plumbers tape until tomorrow, but it is something that you should get taken care of ASAP.
And yes, any type of leak, even a pinhole one let alone a crack, can dramatically affect water pressure. Even if it isn't blocked with ice.
I am not a plumber, but I have done some very limited work on plumbing in my past....it isn't rocket science, but it is something a pro should do usually. The possible repercussions of an actual break make messing with it dangerous. If someone else does the work and it isn't done right at least they are responsible, and you have legal recourse against them. If you do it wrong and it breaks you are SOL....
quote:But I'd imagine that the key words in your post are "(and mostly blocked) with ice." That sure sounds like it would cause a pressure drop! And a corresponding pressure RISE behind the blockage.
Unless Tom normally has his taps wide open, I don't see how a block anywhere along the pipe would INCREASE the pressure. So I doubt he has to worry about explosions. However, once the ice melts the leak might get progressively worse.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Isn't this pipe connected to the external water source? Isn't there a constant external water pressure, unless the main is turned off?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Tom, Home Depot sells a 1-2-3 handyman book that will most likely outline how to change out the elbow. If you do decide to tackle it yourself, AFTER shutting off the main, try flushing a toilet or two. This will reduce the remaining pressure in the lines so that your water leakage is at a minimum while changing out the cracked pipe. Good Luck.
Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Isn't this pipe connected to the external water source? Isn't there a constant external water pressure, unless the main is turned off?
yes, but there is a limit to the pressure that can build up...there has to be or the faucets would burst too. The overall pressure, barring unforseen heating of the water (which could cause steam), must be constant, or at least it can't exceed a specific maximum level....if it did the whole system would be in danger of blowing all the time, regardless of leaks or ice buildup.
posted
Well, I'm not a competent plumber, but my husband is a master plumber.
I can't get a hold of him right now, he's at the station and they're out on a call, but just from my limited knowledge I'd say you are defnitely going to have to replace that, but it shouldn't be necessary to call someone out on a Sunday. ($150 an hour is cheap for a Sunday!)
Wrap some tape around it to try and hold it until you can get it fixed. If you want to try it yourself, you can, but you may save more money in the long run getting a pro. (of course, being the wife of a pro, I would say that!)
You have to remove the elbow, use a reciprocating saw if you have one to cut above and below. You'll cut out more than just the elbow, so you'll need some pipe and a coupling, in order to get the measurements right. Also you'll need PVC cleaner and glue. Don't skimp on the cleaner, thinking you don't need it! If you don't get all the debris off the pieces, it's not going to form a good enough seal.
There are many different types of PVC, make sure you get the same schedule you have in your house.
This stuff smells terrible, and the fumes aren't good for you, don't let Sophie watch.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Oh, and everything I said above relates to drainage lines, we only use PVC for drain/waste/vent, not for water lines. We use copper for water lines.
Is this a water supply or a drain?
[ January 16, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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1st) Ask the neighbors if they are having problems with water pressure. Cuz a drip drip drip ain't gonna noticibly lower the pressure in the house lines.
2nd) Water freezing in the pipes narrows the effective diameter of free flow in the system beyond that point. ie Once the spigot is opened and the stored pressure is released, ya got a reduced amount of water flowing past the blockage into the non-blocked piping.
3rd) PVC pipes are still legal in houselines? I thought they'd been outlawed many years ago for chemical contamination of drinking water. Frankly, I can't understand how they would have been allowed in the first place in areas of the country which experience long durations of sub-freezing temperatures: the PVC glue/weld is vastly weaker than threaded pipe or silver soldering; as is the PVC piping itself, especially while freezing temperatures embrittle the plastic.
4th) Winter ain't the time to experience the learning curve for making plumbing repairs on normally pressurized lines. If ya gotta ask, hire a plumber. If you are interested, one who says it's alright to watch and ask questions: sose ya can have some idea of tools, parts, and procedures needed for similar problems that crop up in the future.
Yeah, I know that there are do-it-yourself books, and that plumbing ain't rocket science -- actually it is, just lower pressures and lesser extremes in temperatures -- but running back-and-forth to the hardware store for parts&advice cuz ya don't already know exactly whatcha need to have on-hand and exactly what to do eats up a LOT of time. Which is fine if ya have the spare time, and ya don't hafta worry about the pipes freezing&bursting while your house main is shut down.
I started asking some questions myself about that PVC pipe, since it was also my understanding that PVC isn't used to carry water anymore. So I headed downstairs again and actually traced the pipe, instead of just looking for drips and figuring, "Oh, that must be it," and realized that the PVC is just a vent for our water heater; as far as I can tell, it just carries warm, slightly pressurized air.
Which would explain the hairline crack and the condensation around it; if it's cold enough near where that vent leaves the house for water to condense and then freeze on the pipe, and the air in the pipe is still warm enough to melt the ice that forms outside it, we'd be experiencing exactly what we are experiencing, crack and drip-wise.
So no urgency there, thankfully.
But that still leaves a puzzle.
Slapping my forehead for not having done this the first time, I traced both (copper) water lines to the shower and had Christy run water. Neither line drips, and I can definitely feel vibration as water flows through 'em. The water pressure in every other faucet seems fine, and I can't notice any obvious reduction in the tub faucet's pressure, either. So what would be likely to cause a dramatic reduction in pressure between the tub and the shower, which are on the same pipe? Are we likely to have a blockage, or an enormous hole that's slowly filling the wall behind the shower with liquidy goodness?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I have no idea what would cause a drop in pressure if you're not experiencing in the tub - are they two separate fixtures or is it a tub/shower combo? Sounds from your description like they're separate.
Could be a problem with the fixture (the faucet) rather than the water line.
I'll ask Wes when he gets back in.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
We had one of theose three-faucet setups in the house I grew up in, the ones where the middle switches flow from the tub to the shower. The middle one went bad, in such a way that it turned off the tub but didn't send water to the shower.
I don't know how it was fixed, since I was 11, but it's certainly possible.
The other alternative is if you have a showerhead with one of those push-button water restrictors. If you never use it, you can forget about it, then accidentally push it halfway in sometime and not know it.
Finally, cheap showerheads with removable flow-restrictors can have the flow restrictor get twisted so that it blocks some of the water.
As you can tell, I've had some shower issues in the past.
posted
It's a tub/shower combo; there's a single line that runs to the faucet, and a valve that lets us switch from the tub to the shower. (Switching to the shower, obviously, sends the water up a little higher to the showerhead.)
Since we bought the house, actually, this valve has always been a bit finicky. Even when it's turned fully to "shower," we get some dripping out of the tub faucet. And the tub faucet always drips a little, no matter how hard we've cranked the hot and cold water taps to "off." The hot water tap itself, which is a clear "crystalline" plastic, obviously gets some leakage; when we bought the house, it was a slightly discolored pink on the inside, indicating some mineral deposit.
About a year ago, I got sick enough of the dripping to rip out the taps and the valve. I replaced them with new equipment, and things seemed better for around a month -- but the dripping eventually resumed, and our hot water tap is, like the previous one, starting to turn a bit pink.
That said, the amount of water coming down from the tub faucet doesn't seem higher than usual, and yet the water pressure from the showerhead is considerably reduced.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Removing a showerhead is easy. Take it off and see if the flow is restricted any. If not, you know the problem is the showerhead.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Isn't this pipe connected to the external water source? Isn't there a constant external water pressure, unless the main is turned off?
yes, but there is a limit to the pressure that can build up...there has to be or the faucets would burst too. The overall pressure, barring unforeseen heating of the water (which could cause steam), must be constant, or at least it can't exceed a specific maximum level....if it did the whole system would be in danger of blowing all the time, regardless of leaks or ice buildup.
Understand?
I can see that there must be a maximum pressure or there would be problems. *ponders* Wait, this is like electric potential in outlets, right? :lightbulb:
Got it, I think. Thanks. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Tom, do you by any chance have a forced hot water system? We do, and it sounds a lot like our issue, which is a mineral buildup in the actual heater system. Steve does an acid wash, becase no one will do it anymore.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
It could be mineral deposits. Sometimes the loss of pressure can happen suddenly if one particular hole gets clogged.. I'd reccommmend wrapping a ziploc bag filled with vinegar around your showerhead (use rubber bands twisties etc) and try to soak where the actual holes are for an hour.
It might not do anything but it's something that's worth a try before tearing everything apart.
There can always be exceptions to the rule though, which is why I let someone who really knows what they are doing mees with my pipes.
For example, take a line into a water heater. That could be under much higher pressure, and if something went wrong with the valve (almost unheard of these days, but it was a problem when they started using hot water systems for heating) the whole thing could explode, and people died that way.
Steam causes high pressure sometimes, adn without a safety valve people were in trouble.
quote:But I'd imagine that the key words in your post are "(and mostly blocked) with ice." That sure sounds like it would cause a pressure drop! And a corresponding pressure RISE behind the blockage.
There is a water main. It supplies water to all the houses in a certain area at a certain pressure. A person can shut off the water to their house by closing the valve from the water main to their house. The utility company will nicely due that for you if you don't pay your water bill; they even have nifty little holes that line up when the valve is shut off so they can lock it off if you don't pay (or at least, our water valve does). We pay the utility company to keep supplying us with water through this main, preferably at a constant pressure.
The water main is kept at a constant pressure by pumps. When pressure goes down in the water main, say due to someone opening all the faucets in their house at once, then water MAIN pressure very temporarily has a momentary dip, but the pumps rapidly bring pressure back up. When water main pressure goes up due to someone being on vacation or shutting off the water main valve to their house, then the pumps don't have to do as much work to keep pressure up. I don't know how much the utility company cares about their water pressure - I'm sure the time a momentary dip occurs depends on the volume of customers, their needs, the size of the pumps, the size of the piping, etc.
So this is KIND OF like potential. When you have large loads coming on to an electrical system, the voltage dips momentarily (due to high current; Power=Current*Voltage - constant power with a rise in current results in voltage drop)until the voltage regulators kick in and the generators adjust. Not like in your house, though, when you start something and the lights dim momentarily - that's just due to starting current of some appliance more than likely, and the current level's return to normal results in the lights looking normal again (no voltage regulators in your house, and the drop is too little for the main power line to notice).
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think she was refering to the fact that the electrical system has a set maximum flow, and the electrical surrent can't exceed that overall (if eeverything if working correctly)....the pressure in the water pipes has the same built in saftey system...or at least it works that way by making sire the pipes don't have too much pressure building up in them even when the pipes are not blocked or frozen.
No one is making a complete compareason to electrical currents, just comparing that one similar characteristic.
posted
Well, that's technically not true. For example, lightning can fry everything in a house before a single breaker pops, even with everything set up properly. We make safety devices to limit the current but these devices are only human made and still take fractions of a second to operate. The speed of light is very very fast and so is electricity.
I understood she was not making an absolute comparison. I was just qualifying things because I'm anal-retentive. Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Isn't this pipe connected to the external water source? Isn't there a constant external water pressure, unless the main is turned off?
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