posted
Having a flag in the classroom was aligned with wanting/having the public schools promote traditional values in Occasional's massively stupid thread about true conservatives. How is the flag being there a traditional value? I'm curious about this, as I just don't see the connection.
What's wrong with having the flag there?
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It'll be interesting if the government is ever prohibited from promoting itself in the interest of seeming unbiased Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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I'd laugh if it happened. Cause then I can safely look at people and say, "See, you let it get out of hand."
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<--- likes the flag in the classroom. I am hesitant about kids saying the pledge before they understand what they are pledging. I take the pledge seriously, and I think it should be said in schools, but there is a sense in which making a five year old say it is like giving an illiterate man a contract to sign.
Maybe it's because I went to a bit of Catholic school and got used to saying "Our Fathers" "Hail Marys" and "Act on Contritions" way before I understood anything I was saying.
quote: I am hesitant about kids saying the pledge before they understand what they are pledging.
I had a teacher that made sure we paused at a certain point (Not sure where anymore) that everyone else slurred because a certain level of significance was lost when it was said in the traditional rhythm. That's about the time I really realized what the pledge meant (6th grade). I actually miss those days. I'd kinda like having some flags on campus here that we could do the pledge to... (Honestly, I haven't pledged the flag in...well...last time I can remember was when I was actually in public school, so about 12 years.)
[ January 26, 2005, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Boris ]
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I need to go to bed, so here is my simple answer:
There is, in this country, a civil religion that is pushed by many people.
This religion is based around the state and has many holy days, but the major one is on July 4th.
The holy symbol of this civil religion, for many people, is the flag. So, having a flag in a classroom and pledging allegiance to it is like a prayer.
Now, there are some people who have a problem with this for various reasons. I think, though, that those reasons boil down to not wanting to, basically, idolize the nation-state and be forced to put an idealized version of it on the same psychic level as God, or YHVH, or whatever your personal ideal is.
Here is a wikipedia's link on civil religion that doesn't quite say what I said, but is interesting to read.
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quote:I had a teacher that made sure we paused at a certain point (Not sure where anymore) that everyone else slurred because a certain level of significance was lost when it was said in the traditional rhythm.
I'll bet she was emphasizing the comma in "one nation, under God..."
That is the official way to say the pledge in FFA. Don't ask me why, but we were darn tootin' proud of it.
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Having a flag I don't really have a problem with, but I've got to admit that pledging allegiance to it seems to me to run exactly counter to the ideas that our country was founded on. The government is supposed to be of me, for me, and by me, not over me; that's a position I'm only comfortable with having groups no larger than three in. Pledging allegiance to the government confirms the superior position that it now occupies, but doesn't have any right to.
I've got no problem working for the good of my countryman and for that of the world in general, but if the government can't convince me that what they want me to do is going to accomplish this, they have no right to expect my allegiance or (except in a very small number of cases) use force to compell me to do it. Or at least that's the way it should be, in a responsible Enlightenment society.
I teach 8th graders, many of which do not or will not say the pledge. Some of these are socially/politically conscious students who do not agree with the policies of the current administration and say they will not pledge in a sort of protest (some of these resist even standing). Some are students who feel the country hasn't done anything for them, so why should they make special effort for it - the few who have told me this are minority students. Some simply see it as a meaningless exercise. Some feel it is a waste of time. Some feel they can't be bothered, or torn away from their morning bagel or conversation.
It wasn't like this when I went to school, which wasn't too long ago. There wasn't this level of resistence - or any level I consciously remember, certainly in middle school.
The thing I can't get away from, though, is that the flag represents a country where it's okay to ignore the pledge or to even protest against it. Forcing students to pledge or stand sort of runs counter to the very idea of "liberty" for all - yet explanation of the meaning and import of the pledge falls mainly on deaf or protesting ears.
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When kids don't want to pledge, I ask that they sit quietly out of respect for those who do. they are fine with that.
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Elizabeth, I wish when I had refused to say the pledge in my freshman year of high school, my geography/economics teacher had been so discreet. I remained seated and was quiet; other kids harassed me. The teacher informed them, quite loudly, that "no matter how unpatriotic they might think I was being, I had a right to do that."
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I remember standing up for the pledge of allegiance before every county commissioner's meeting I covered for the newspaper. There was something about being in a courtroom (where the meetings were held so that the public could attend en masse) and standing together to say the pledge.
I said the pledge every time and did so fully understanding what I was promising. For me, at least, it served as a reminder that the job I was doing there, that night, was important to people and that I had a duty to report truthfully and without bias. That served me well, as well as our paper.
But I also remembered that each time I said the pledge, I was also vowing to support the system that made it okay for others in the room to choose not to say the pledge. And that was important, too, and something many people tend to forget.
You say the pledge not just to support the government, but to support a governmental system that guarantees another person's right to oppose or opt-out of the government.
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Most students stand quietly. I think only one or two in the whole class actually *say* the pledge with me. Another one or two sit out of laziness, and when I tap their chair with my foot, they get up.
It's those that insist on talking or complaining about the pledge *during the pledge* that frustrate me.
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I think a more meaningful mission statement should be found- preferably from the constitution. Though the ideas of indivisible, freedom and justice for all are okay. But the way the pledge is phrased, religious people need a phrase like "under God" in there. It would be better to have a weaker term than "pledge allegiance" like "loyal to".
I don't know, even Jehovah's witnesses get married. They can love something besides God, I think. Their issue is with placing a category of people (citizens of this country) over those of another (everyone else in the world). So there is no point in trying to satisfy that score.
I think children should have a civic mission statement that expresses gratitude for living in a democratic republic, perhaps. And citizens maybe have a separate one.
As for FC's dilemna of the 8th graders, I don't know. Maybe make a bigger deal of the fact that people can opt out if they feel strong enough but if they just want to appear cool by being blase, that's disingenuous.
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As millions of religious people had no problem for quite a long time saying the pledge absent "under God", I think they would manage were it removed.
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quote:The thing I can't get away from, though, is that the flag represents a country where it's okay to ignore the pledge or to even protest against it. Forcing students to pledge or stand sort of runs counter to the very idea of "liberty" for all - yet explanation of the meaning and import of the pledge falls mainly on deaf or protesting ears.
Is there a distinction between standing and actually speaking?
I'm entirely comfortable with people electing not to say the pledge, but the idea of people refusing to stand bothers me. It's like refusing to stand when a judge enters a courtroom, or when the president enters a room, or something. Standing doesn't imply agreeance with the ambitions of the hanging flag, as pledging might, but does show simple respect for the country that's providing so much for us.
FlyingCow, do you teach in public school? Maybe your minority students think the country "hasn't done anything for them", but you'll have to forgive me for disagreeing with them. They *are* getting a publiclly funded education, are they not? The U.S. is providing them with the uninterrupted opportunity (indeed, requiring that they take advantage of the uninterrupted opportunity) to better themselves for the formative years of their lives. How can they believe they owe the flag no respect?
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quote: As millions of religious people had no problem for quite a long time saying the pledge absent "under God", I think they would manage were it removed.
I guess it depends on your definition of allegiance. Since I have grown up thinking of it as something right under my allegiance to God, it is not something I would want to proclaim. Though my rational sense of allegiance is that it is not that different from loyalty.
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Kasie, it sort of depends on why you're refusing to say the pledge. When I did it, it was in protest against a lot of what my classmates were saying (i.e., you have to believe this in order to be a good American; otherwise you're unpatriotic scum, etc., etc.). A protest that goes completely unnoticed isn't much of a protest at all, and there isn't much distinction between someone standing saying nothing and someone standing and speaking. If you're standing up, the only person it affects is you, the person actually refusing to speak. However, if you remain seated, people notice and ask you why and that (in an ideal situation) gets a dialogue going.
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My understanding was that students who do not wish to say the pledge should still stand up, much as we stand when other countries' national anthems are played at the olympics or some baseball games. Standing does not constitute allegiance, only respect. I occasionally have a student who will not say the pledge--maybe one or two a year. I don't call attention to this, but if they are not standing, I quietly talk to them and tell them that they can stand without speaking or putting their hands over their hearts. When I think some students are slow to do this out of laziness--or if they're studying for a last minute test --I will make generic comments without naming names, a la a teachable moment: this is what is considered polite during the pledge.
I've never had a student really fight me on this.
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Megan, I would suggest that this is not an appropriate occasion for protest. I would consider that an act of rudeness as much as protest. It also seems that you want attention, but aren't happy with the fact that it comes with opposition. That's the way it is, though. If you seek out attention for your views by showing disrespect, you will get disrespect. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what you should expect when you set out to protest in this way.
Would you protest the Catholic Church's pedophilia scandal by attending mass while very publicly flaunting the conventions of dress and behavior there?
-o-
On an unrelated note, this thread title is screaming for a rather obvious dobie . . . must . . . resist . . .
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: FlyingCow, do you teach in public school? Maybe your minority students think the country "hasn't done anything for them", but you'll have to forgive me for disagreeing with them. They *are* getting a publiclly funded education, are they not? The U.S. is providing them with the uninterrupted opportunity (indeed, requiring that they take advantage of the uninterrupted opportunity) to better themselves for the formative years of their lives. How can they believe they owe the flag no respect?
The short answer? They're 13. They don't respect their parents either, who do far more for them on an individual, observable, quantifiable, every-day basis than the country does.
I had students get up and walk out on their parents during a conference with five teachers.
Sure, YOU know what the country has done for them, and I know it, but young teenagers aren't normally "big picture" types. They see injustice in the country on a microcosmic level, having no experience of a world where basic freedoms they take for granted don't exist.
And I do have students who would refuse to stand if the president walked into the room.
A big part of the struggle with 8th graders is not teaching them the course material, but teaching them what is and is not socially appropriate, and what boundaries are okay to push against - and how to do it in a meaningful, respectful way.
Those are the challenges, and it takes a lot of one-on-one time to help a student see the right thing to do. Unfortunately, our educational system is such that one-on-one time is scarce has hen's teeth - and god forbid you have one-on-one time with a student of the opposite sex, or you'll end up in court.
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I wouldn't have minded standing so much, I guess, in hindsight, if someone had asked me in that way, Ic.
As I said before, I think the actions that are involved in not saying the pledge depend largely on why that person is choosing not to say the pledge. If it was merely a matter of disagreeing with the sentiment of the pledge, that's one thing. But, to my 14-year-old self, it was the equivalent of burning a flag in protest. It was the most peaceful way I knew to protest the ideas of so-called patriotism being espoused by my peers and by my teacher. It wasn't about respect or disrespect for the country or the institution of government; it was about making my minority views heard, because all other ways were being ignored.
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I wasn't suggesting that you dealt improperly with the situation -- you certainly know better than I and I imagine I would have handled it the same way. I was speaking more of the principle of the thing.
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The Pledge was always a real tough one when I was a kid in school. We (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe that pledging allegience to a country is wrong. It has to do with our view of God's Kingdom being a real government and not having divided loyalties when the gov't of the country you live in asks something of you that belongs to God. FWIW.
But at the same time we show great respect to the government. I always stood quietly and respectfully during the pledge. I would never spit on or destroy a flag, nor would any JW in any other country. We honor and obey the "superior authorities" as long as they do not ask of us what we believe God expressely forbids.
During the 30's and 40's JW kids were kicked out of schools and adults were harrassed violently for not saluting the flag. When the Supreme Court ruled (W. Virginia vs Gobitas, I think) that it was NOT UNCONSTITUTIONAL to require the pledge of allegience in a school, things really got bad. It was open season on any of us, not just in schools, but at town meetings, etc. But about 10 years later, the SC reversed it's ruling and said that one could not be forced to pledge an allegience and that the right of free speech and worship prohibited the coercion of any sorts of expression that one was not in agreement with (W. Virginia vs. Barnett, IIRC- I can check on those cases later.)
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quote: Megan, I would suggest that this is not an appropriate occasion for protest. I would consider that an act of rudeness as much as protest. It also seems that you want attention, but aren't happy with the fact that it comes with opposition. That's the way it is, though. If you seek out attention for your views by showing disrespect, you will get disrespect. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what you should expect when you set out to protest in this way.
Some things to remember about my particular situation:
My views had been routinely disrespected loudly by both my fellow students and my teacher, and not always politely.
My goal was not to display disrespect, but to remind my peers that disrespect was constitutionally protected.
I was fourteen. I'm not saying it was the most logical, or even the most polite course to take, but I saw no other recourse at the time. I probably wouldn't do the same thing now; I'm quite a bit older and more mature.
posted
Kama, the pledge is typically said once a day, usually first thing in the morning. At the very least, we must model proper behavior. I imagine we have the right to not say the pledge, from a legal standpoint. But sometimes in all careers, something that you have a right to do could get you marked in other ways. I imagine that if I did not say it at all, somebody would be offended. I might get a phone call or three from parents, and an administrator might casually hint to me that I should change my stance. If I persisted, the district would probably be forced to back me (although you never do know these days). My name would almost certainly be slandered all over the two online BB forums that revolve around local issues. And suddenly I would find that trivial complaints over malcontent students and parents about unrelated issues were taken much more seriously than they were before. Next year, I might find myself no longer teaching upperclassmen, but remedial freshman math. Folks might take a closer look at my lesson plans, just to make sure I'm dotting every I and crossing every T. School overcrowding might force me to teach in multiple classrooms, during other teachers' planning periods, instead of having my own classroom. Completely unfortunate, coincidental things, you know. But yeah, you tick off your top brass, and, even if on that one point you have the law on your side, your life will subtly become harder. And everyone has something that they do that they could properly be reprimanded for, and it's just a matter of time until somebody finds it, if they want to.
posted
I briefly toyed with the thought of saying the pledge but not saying the words "under God," but I decided it was not worth it.
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Ic, I started out doing that. It was the flak I got about it from my fellow students that made me take the bigger step of saying nothing at all.
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To get back to the thread topic, Icarus underlines quite nicely what I was trying to say in my post, and why many people have a problem with flags in the classroom.
posted
this is a bit off topic, but only one year in my schooling career did we say the pledge every day, or maybe even at all, that was 4th grade, and that was my oldest and most traditional teacher ever.
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quote: I briefly toyed with the thought of saying the pledge but not saying the words "under God," but I decided it was not worth it.
I did that in elementary school. I replaced "under God" with "of them all". Same rythm. But I never made a point of the change, and I don't think anyone noticed.
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My old high school does its morning announcements -- and the pledge of allegiance -- every day on closed-circuit television (done by kids who take TV production classes, etc). They used to do the pledge live every day until, when I was a senior, someone went on and said the pledge without 'under God'. He didn't break the rhythem, he just let that portion go in silence.
After that, they started taping the pledge.
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I don't see the flag as being the symbol of the current presidential administration or any specific leaders and their parties. It's a symbol of the nation that includes all of its people. I see the Pledge of Allegiance as a declaration of togetherness, a basic willingness to work within the confines of a cohesive, civilized nation--democratically, legally, and peacefully--to preserve our liberties. Pledging allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands is, I would say, a pretty basic requirement for a nation that wants to hold together.
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If they read the Bill of Rights or sections of the Constitution or even the Federalist papers, I could go with that argument (heck if there was even a concerted effort to actually teach what these things really meant, I'd be less upset). But that's not what they do. It's a pledge of allegiance. From Webster's
quote:1 a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides 2 : devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause
It's a pledge to be subserviant. It's a promise to obey and a recognition of being bound to the flag and the government. Our nation was founded on the idea that government is for people, not people for the government. This pledge flies in the face of this.
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Allegiance is a pretty strong word. But we are pledging allegiance to the republic, not necessarily the government. The Pledge of Allegiance never mentions the government. It defines a republic as one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
We are pledging to be "subservient" to the republic as a whole, yes. That's what makes the nation indivisible, IMO.
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Locally the problem with flags in the classroom is that a law was passed requiring classroom flags to be a certain size, which would cost thousands of dollars for schools with flags that were just a wee bit under.
One of our local principals appeared in The Daily Show bit on it. The correspendant assured him that size mattered.
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But it does in fact talk about the government. It says the republic. The republic is either the government or the physical nation, neither or which is an acceptable thing to pledge allegiance to. You want to talk about commitment to the ideals of our nation, I'm all for that, but that's not what it says or the way that it's used, and generally the people who champion it are concerned about the OBEY angle of it.
I am not subserviant to anyone in this country. Well, I am the way things are, but I shouldn't be. I'm not even subservient to large groups of people. If you can't convince me to a course of action, there are only very limited cases (when the compelling interest outweighs my rights) where you can force me to go along with them.
That's part of the ridiculous thing about wanting the "under God" taken out as being religious persecution. It's not persecution when we don't let you force your beliefs on other people. It's persecution when we don't let you practice your own beliefs. It's fighting tyranny and protecting liberty, which is what our country was founded on, when we don't let you force other people to support your beliefs.
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And also, do people really beleive that we do an adequate job of teaching the ideals of this country? I'm willing to bet that around half of Hatrack couldn't give a good explanation of what the Enlightenment was and why it was vital to the founding of our country. That's not something we really talk about in our schools.
edit: Or how about the Federalist Papers? Do people think that our schools do an adequate job of exploring the issues surrounding these documents? I really don't think so.
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Websters defines a republic as either a government whose power lies in the "body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law," or "a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government."
The government is part and parcel with the republic; the republic isn't necessarily the government itself.
Dumb example, but say the President of the United States stood up and recited the Pledge of Allegiance. What is he pledging allegiance to? Certainly not himself?
Regardless of how we think issues are being handled by the government or anyone else, we are pledging to in effect throw our efforts into the greater cause of ensuring liberty and justice for all. We are pledging to aid in ensuring the continual cohesiveness of our nation. Without a cohesive nation, liberty and justice won't exist.
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So again, either government or the physical republic, neither of which it is appropriate to pledge allegiance to. I shouldn't have to obey you because you have more power than I do, be it politically or popularly derived. But that's what I'm pledging to do when I'm pledging allegiance.
edit: Based on our founding principles, liberty could only be maintained by actively being on guard against government and popular groups, not by promising to be subserviant to them. I did mention the Federalist Papers. I agree with them in large part. I'm not advocating anarchy, but I am advocating not acting like it's okay that we teach our children that their job as citizens is to do what they're told.
quote:the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government
This doesn't say what that fidelity is. There is a certain something owed to the government of the United States by its citizens, even if that something is merely to refrain from seeking to overthrow it.
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--I will make generic comments without naming names, a la a teachable moment: this is what is considered polite during the pledge.![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
