posted
for lack of a better term,other potentially dangerous things?
I had been thinking of this, as I had recently re-read parts of The Continuum Concept and thinking how I do agree with most of the babyhood stuff- co-sleeping, in-arms baby care, etc, but once she hits what I call the "toddlers playing with sharp knives at the edge of a pit" part, she pretty much loses me. I get nervous/scared/maybe paranoid about anything in my view that's potentially dangerous. I will rarely let Matthew use a sharp knife. We just started letting the older two use glass and ceramic in the past few months, and not without reservation. If we're walking down the street and the kids wander out of "grabbing distance", I get nervous. And quite honestly, I would be happy if Brian waited until the yet to be born one is say, school age to make another fire in the fireplace. The idea of a burn terrifies me.
Where do you fall, and what factors do you think influenced that?
I'm not a parent, so I can't answer your question that way, but I can say what my parents are like. My sister turns twelve in a little over six weeks, and my mom is still hesitant to leave her at home by herself. Not only that, she's not expected to fall asleep in the dark by herself, and my dad sits with her until she does go to sleep. When my mom set the table, she would never place a sharp knife for her up until last year.
I personally think that this is a little extreme, but then, I'm guessing I got similar treatment (though I don't really remember), and I'm not altogether independent. Though I remember putting myself to bed and using knives BEFORE I was twelve... I think the staying at home alone thing was the same for me, too. I dunno. Anyway, enough rambling.
My parents are Jewish, and can therefore be a little excessive with their safeguarding (sorry rivka, Ela, and other Jewish mothers, but that's plain fact ). I'm sure I will too, once I get to be a mother.
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Well, I can't tell from that link what that book exactly teaches -- other than this lady went to live with a bunch of Stone Age Indians in South America and now thinks their cultural way of raising kids is better than ours???
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Ah, now these principles I have heard of before:
quote:For an infant, these include such experiences as...
* constant physical contact with his mother (or another familiar caregiver as needed) from birth; * sleeping in his parents' bed, in constant physical contact, until he leaves of his own volition (often about two years); * breastfeeding "on cue" — nursing in response to his own body's signals; * being constantly carried in arms or otherwise in contact with someone, usually his mother, and allowed to observe (or nurse, or sleep) while the person carrying him goes about his or her business — until the infant begins creeping, then crawling on his own impulse, usually at six to eight months; * having caregivers immediately respond to his signals (squirming, crying, etc.), without judgment, displeasure, or invalidation of his needs, yet showing no undue concern nor making him the constant center of attention; * sensing (and fulfilling) his elders' expectations that he is innately social and cooperative and has strong self-preservation instincts, and that he is welcome and worthy.
I haven't heard them from this book, but I have heard they were the way of life for Native American Indians at the time of European settlement of the U.S. They constantly carried their infants with them everywhere with their pouches, etc.
But again, I don't see where it specifies the things you are talking about. Can you tell us more about it?
In Washington State..it is illegal to leave a child under 12 at home or in the car alone...so that doesn't seem extreme...but our kids do start falling asleep alone by about 5. Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Yeah, that one seems a bit more extreme to me too. That and the knife, which you know, you'd think a twelve-year-old could handle!
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I'm not seeing on her site what I ws talking about, but I REALLY need to log off and get ready for work...will look more later...
....but breifly, in the book, she claims that Western parents create more danger for their kids by projecting their fears onto the. She claims the Yequanna toddlers, who are trusted not to hurt themselves, are allowed to play with sharp knives and axes, or roll about at the edge of pits, and they don't get hurt. I have freinds who have taken it to heart, and it just makes me cringe a little to see their under-twos cutting things with steak knives.
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Raia, I went to(my dad taught there), and then worked at, a junior boarding school. The youngest kids there were nine. My daughter is ten, and I could no more think of sending her away to a boarding school than I could cutting off my own arm. The kids were given free reign of many acres of land, the use of a woodshop(supervised), hot wax(batik), and many other things. Very few kids ever got hurt, and the children who left there in eighth grade were incredibly independent and resourceful. I think this is the goal for many parents who send their kids away at young ages, but boy, it wouldn't be worth it to me.
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I think we do tend to overprotect, but then we also have a very different society.
I liked Waldorf education when Nathan was between 4-8 because he at least got a lot more freedom to grow those practical skills and decision making opportunities that I felt fearful about . . .
Now if they had just done more in the primary grades with actual literacy and mathematics . . . hmmm . . .
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Shan, that certainly is the trade-off with Waldorf, isn't it? My school was very Waldorf-like. In fact, it was the first progressive school in the country. (www.nct.org)
I think that Waldorf kds do very well if they stay with it through high school, but it is a tough transition to public school. At least for a while.
Also, they do a horrid job at screening for reading disabilites, and if a child has learning disabilities, they may lose a few very important years when specified instruction is necessary.
(For those who are unfamiliar with Waldorf, they do not teach formal reading until third grade.)
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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My grandmother is from England. She apparently taught her oldest two to eat with a knife and fork-- not a spoon-- which is how she was raised. They cut their own meat by the time they were 11 or 12 months. Then she found out that was strange and dangerous to her American friends. It was just teaching correct table behavior to her.
Personally, my daughter eats with a spoon or her fingers, and that's fine with me. I didn't learn to light a match until I was 6, and that's fine with me, too.
We don't go overboard, but we try to remove hazards when possible; the outlets have plug covers in the unused holes, but the plugs to things we use frequently stay in, and we have not put the screw-on flip-covers that are supposed to be the safest on; we prefer to teach our daughter (who is very curious and into things) that she is not to touch the outlets instead of relying on hardware to keep her safe. I don't allow her to play with choking hazards, but I allow her to play with the cats; again, we have cats, and I want her to learn how to handle animals, not have to be watched with the cats the rest of her life. (By the time she was 5 months, she had begun responding to the phrase "nice touch" and will stop pulling and "pat" the kitties instead if we remind her. A couple of months ago, we were looking at my mom's cat calendar, and instead of "grabbing" the picture like she usually does, she realized it was a cat and stroked the picture, avoiding its face.) So, I'm somewhere in the middle. I draw the line at letting her play with the scissors; every time she's managed to get ahold of them so far, she hasn't been hurt, but I put that down to me getting them away within 5 seconds and don't trust it to hold true.
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We went for cautious education. Outlets were plugged, sharp objects were stashed, safety catches were put on kitchen cabinets (although we left the pots cabinet open, figuring we'd rather deal with amused and loud drummers than bored, quiet self-poisoners). But where and when was convenient, we let our kids do potentially dangerous stuff while we were right there, with the understanding that this was never to happen if we weren't there. It's easier to learn respect for the stove, I think, if you have first hand evidence of what it can do in a controlled situation. When my youngest was about 6 he was determined he was going to be a soldier. Which I have no problems with, but he wasn't interested in the "serving your country, fighting for what's right" part as much as he was interested in shooting people. So my brother-in-law Rodger took him out to a secluded area and let him fire a gun. I don't have any, but my b-in-law has several. Jamie was given a quick lesson in gun safety, had plugs stuck in his ears, and then my b-in-law stood behind him and held the gun while Jamie aimed and pulled the trigger. Rodger intentionally chose his loudest gun, with the biggest kick. The blast scared the crap out of Jamie and the kickback would have knocked him over if Rodger hadn't been expecting it. And that was enough for him that day. On the way home we talked more about gun safety and what to do if you found one, and what to do if you were at a friend's house and your friend found one. As he's grown older he's been allowed to fire more easily controlled weapons, but I don't think he ever lost the respect he gained when he felt a killing weapon jerk out of his hands.
I favor education over "just say no," pretty much always.
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What does really bother me is when I'm around other parents who clearly don't watch their kids. Then I can't relax, I keep watching them out of the corner of my eye. So does Teres. We never kept our kids in hand or used the leashes (shudder), but in public places we were always aware of where our kids were.
When we watched "Eyes Wide Shut" there's a scene where Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman are talking in a toystore and their kid wanders off as the camera pulls in to focus on their situation. It was a tense, emotional moment that was completely lost on both of us because we kept muttering to the screen, "where's your kid, it's a busy toy store in New York City at Christmas for crying out loud go get your kid where's your kid why aren't you watching your kid..."
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quote: In Washington State..it is illegal to leave a child under 12 at home or in the car alone.
Are you kidding me? So, if a single mother leaves her 10 year old child at home alone while she goes for a jog, she's in violation of the law? If she leaves her child in a locked car with the engine on and air conditioner blowing to listen to music while she goes in the bank, she's in violation of the law?
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I get like that whenever I see people let their kids wander away from them at the supermarket and I don't even have kids.
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quote:If she leaves her child in a locked car with the engine on and air conditioner blowing to listen to music while she goes in the bank, she's in violation of the law?
She should be!
Why do people think they can't carry their kids into the bank with them? I see this all the time, but my kids have always gone inside with me. yes, you have to make sure they don't get impatient and start making a scene, but you can usually handle it by going at non-peak times and just teaching your children appropriate behavior.
I don't even leave dogs in the car. Much less a child.
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Did you guys hear the story about the four year-old who got up in the middle of the night and drove to the video store? Oh my! The mom had put him on her lap and let him steer. In the middle of the night, he wanted a video. i am not quite sure how far it was, but pretty far.(just read it was 1/4 mile.) He bumped into a few cars there and back, but no one was hurt.
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No she shouldn't. That's silly. That's way overprotective. (edit: The law, I mean.)
My brothers and I all love reading. We didn't mind going with my mom on errands or whatever as long as we could stay in the car and read and it made it easier for my mom to shop rather than have three bored boys going crazy from boredom in the grocery store.
And what about the situation where the mom goes out for a jog and her kid is left to do homework or watch tv or whatever in the house? Are you seriously saying that that should be illegal?
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I think Chris has the right idea. I remember, though, that my brother got a pocket knife for Christmas one year, and was told not to use it unless my dad was with him. (He was 7 and had motor control problems, especially fine motor.) Well, my dad was in the shower one day, and my brother really wanted to whittle. So he got down the pocket knife, ignored me as I told him he wasn't supposed to, went out on the porch, and started whittling. Within 5 minutes, he came back in, tears leaking out of the corners of his eyes, and went in to tell my dad "I cut myself and it's bleeding and it really hurts."
He had nicked an artery. He was stopping the blood with a clean t-shirt that had been sitting in a basket on the porch waiting to be folded (thank goodness, we were taught how to stop bleeding and other things like that by the time we were 3). My dad (a doctor) took one look at him and yelled to me, "Get in the car, we're going to the emergency room."
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quote:My brothers and I all love reading. We didn't mind going with my mom on errands or whatever as long as we could stay in the car and read and it made it easier for my mom to shop rather than have three bored boys going crazy from boredom in the grocery store.
I dunno, Belle. By ten, any kid should be just fine in the car -- or on their own -- for a decent period of time. I mean, I would spend hours playing down the street by the time I was seven, without adult supervision. And it's not like it's any more dangerous here in 2004, in Madison, than it was in 1982, in Gary.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Are you kidding me? So, if a single mother leaves her 10 year old child at home alone while she goes for a jog, she's in violation of the law? If she leaves her child in a locked car with the engine on and air conditioner blowing to listen to music while she goes in the bank, she's in violation of the law?
Right or not, I do know this is the law because a good friend looked into it when the lady who watched her 11 year old before school moved. If she had left him alone, she would have been in violation of the law and had her ex gotten wind, would surely have lost her half of the custody.
I could maybe see Matthew being mature enough in two years to stay in the car with a book (if the law allowed that)but I think I am one of those people who gets bogged down in what ifs....if they are with me, I know they're not being kidnapped or the car with my kids is not being crushed by a drunken big-rig driver in the parking lot. But then my husband tells me I have a special talent for envisioning the worst case scenario.
Tom- OK, none of these kids of my friends have ever ended up in the ER. Still makes me nervous.
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Let me be clear that I am not passing judgement on parents here. It's the law that I find ridiculous. Short of selling your kids to the circus, or physically endangering them, I'm cool. Keep your kids in the car. Don't keep your kids in the car. It's your kid.
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Most states choose an age when they feel children can safely be left alone. While it's true that some kids may be ready before then, I think the point of the laws is to protect kids who aren't, not harass parents whose kids are mature and safe.
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Kids are so different. My oldest started unloading the dishwasher with careful training at age 6. We have to watch the 21 month old to make sure she doesn't do it (sometimes the dishwasher is not run yet and she does it). She can't reach the cupboard, so she takes plates to the table. She throws utensils into the drawers, in a fairly random fashion. In one sense she may just see that another child is doing it so she'll do it, but she is a fairly agressive mimic in other ways.
today we we thinking about the fact that oldest child began piano lessons at the same age middle child now is. What were we thinking? But they are born different times of the year, I think it may seem less weird when we get to the 3-months-from-starting-kindergarten age. I was also musing on the fact that my oldest could already read at this age. As a late talker, we had pushed that so the child's disadvantage in school would be less. But I think it will be good for middle child to need to pay attention in school, somehow.
But I can totally see this kid getting recruited for a top secret strategy game program. Though I wouldn't be happy to send any of my little ones away.
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The school I work in is a middle school, but it is grades five through seven. the kids get out at 1:30. Not many working families I know have a schedule where they can be home by 2:00, so many of the kids stay home alone, because their folks cannot afford daycare.
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First off, Raia, I object to you perpetuating this "plain fact."
quote: My parents are Jewish, and can therefore be a little excessive with their safeguarding (sorry rivka, Ela, and other Jewish mothers, but that's plain fact ). I'm sure I will too, once I get to be a mother.
I know Jewish mothers who are overprotective, some who are not protective enough, and many who strike me as reasonably protective -- ditto for non-Jewish mothers. Now, your parents do strike me (did before this thread) as overprotective. And yes, that means that you are likely to be as well. We tend to do as we were raised, unless we deliberately try to change.
I am overprotective about some things and probably not protective enough about others. But the fact remains, other than one broken leg (which occurred when I was miles away, and my son was with his dad, who was being reasonably cautious), my kids have managed not to seriously hurt themselves.
And I also think 12 (which is the minimum age in many states to leave kids alone) is a bit on the old side.
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I'm not sure where I read this or heard this, but it was something like it's okay for a child of 11 or 12 years of age to babysit, but they had to be 13 to stay home alone. That stuck in my head as just about the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard.
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I'd just like to point out that there's nothing better than a thread title that ends in a conjunction for making funny adjacent title pairings.
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I was sorta supervising my nephews (I was the eldest in the room) and one of them picked up a pair of scissors. That was the first time I was authoritative with them.. didn't feel great. I don't remember how old any of us were, but the aforementioned child was probably five or six. I decided to err on the side of caution. I know my nephew didn't like that. In retrospect, their mom probably would not have minded.
This is the woman who often says she doesn't care if her sons kill each other, as long as they're all the way dead. so she doesn't hafta deal with half-dead kids. I know she's joking, but it's something I would never say to a child.
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Jewish mothers are known to be more overprotective than other mothers. I know it's a stereotype, but it's got a solid base!
You may know some who aren't, but honestly, I think those are the minority, not the ones who are.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, and I'm certainly not trying to offend Jewish mothers!! Don't get me wrong. Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I have some good Jewish friends and that doesn't necessarily ring true. Also, I read that series "All of a kind Family" as a kid, and the mother seemed pretty relaxed (except for the baby boy, of course). Granted, I'm part Asian so my index of parental protectiveness probably isn't normal. P.S. Mormons are also not known for a hands-off approach, though with the larger number of children it is inevitable that supervision gets diluted as the family expands.
I have to say that while I don't get "angel whispers" about danger to my children, I have intercepted the baby causing imminent harm to the Xbox. My mom didn't call it "angel whispers", I'm kind of parodying her sense that we are all connected to her in a psychic way and she would be able to tell if something were really wrong with us. I'm such a bad daughter.
posted
I went to a private high school, and at a third of my fellow students were Jewish. (The student population was decimated on Jewish holidays)
Anyway, this was in the 70's, and aside from one of my friends who was Orthodox, I have to say that my friends' parents were the most permissive I have ever known. This was probably just a 70's thing, but Lordy Lou, none of them had curfews, ever. When I think of the things we did in high school, I shudder.
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quote:Mormons are also not known for a hands-off approach, though with the larger number of children it is inevitable that supervision gets diluted as the family expands.
I wish this was true in my ward. I have pulled so many very young kids away from the outlets in the foyer or halls, their wet fingers outstretched and their little faces contorted in rage at me, when their parents-- especially fathers-- weren't watching them that I got permission from my Bishop to put child-safe plug covers in and tie back the loose lamp cords. It hasn't stopped it completely, but at least it makes me feel somewhat better...
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Raia, don't take this the wrong way . . . but you are too young and have experienced too small a slice of the population of "Jewish mothers" to be able to make such pronouncements. How many do you know personally? How many do you know indirectly? How many are NOT mothers of teenagers (most teens think their parents are over-protective, regardless of whether it is objectively true), and not celebrities of some sort?
What different segments of Jewish society are represented in your sample? I know Jewish mothers ranging in age from 18 to their 90s, in level of observance from extremely Orthodox to completely secular. I used to be on several mailing lists for moms, with significant percentages of Jewish moms. I've participated in IRL groups for moms, both those that target specific segments of the Jewish population and those that target moms in general (one that targeted single mothers).
In my (admittedly non-scientific, but I think pretty extensive) sample, I saw Jewish moms who matched the stereotype -- and more who did not. Pretty similar distribution to the non-Jewish moms.
And note mothertree's and Elizabeth's posts.
I'm actually a bit curious as to why you are invested in this being true.
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In my experience, and having known many Jewish moms, moms are a lot the same in every population I've seen. Some are overprotective; some are not. Some are overly permissive; some are not. Some are apathetic, some are very involved, and there are mothers who represent everything in between-- in every segment of the population. Sure, these things are expressed differently within the bounds of different cultures and societies, but they are all there. I never noticed this very acutely until I became a mother myself. It does kind of the same thing I imagine living about half a century or longer does for you: opens up your perspectives. There are behaviors and attitudes that are culturally influenced, such as some mothers' treatment of their sons vs. their daughters, but the overall feelings and attitudes and behaviors are much the same everywhere, and even when they're not, the motivations are the same.
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I was just trying to include people who have not had children by the time they're about 45 or 50; I think if you achieve that age, you are likely to have had much the same thing happen even if you haven't had children. How old you are is a moot point since you are a mother, rivka. Not that you look a day older than 28, of course.
posted
I agree that there is no one religious/ethnic population of mothers that is more protective than others.
I do think some groups of mothers tend to be more protective....for example, it seems that most of the moms of one kid I know, are more protective than moms of multiple kids. Two of my good freinds are older, single moms of one child, and right or wrong that has led me to a stereotyoe that older sinlge moms of one child will be highly protective. I think I'm pretty cautious, but they look at me in shock and horror sometimes. ("You let your kids climb trees? ")
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It depends on the parents fears. Some parents fear some things more than others, and these priorities are formed by how the parent was raised, what kind of piles of dung the parents have stepped into in their own lives, and the dynamics of the family, etc.
There is a sense in which a lot of homeschool parents are protecting the kid's soul. Is that over-protective? I'm not so sure. It is a soul we are talking about. THen again, does that mean that parents who send their kids to school are negligent, with respect to threats unseen?
Over-protective is strange phrase when most parents understand that they are being appropriately protective. I have my own feelings on the issue, but for the most part, it's hard to judge and I'm happy that we really don't have to.
posted
This is true. "Over-protective" is almost always defined as "more protective than I am (or think I would be)".
Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Well, there are the cases where 12 year old girls have been beaten for talking to people of the opposite sex. I'd define that as overprotective. (And abusive.)
But generally, I think parents each know their own child's strenghts and weaknesses and abilities pretty well, and even within one family, one child may need to be protected from things others don't. Usually, I don't think kids are permanently harmed by their parents' decisions; and as long as the kid isn't harmed, we tend not to notice too much either way.
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). I'm sure I will too, once I get to be a mother.
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and she does it). She can't reach the cupboard, so she takes plates to the table. She throws utensils into the drawers, in a fairly random fashion. In one sense she may just see that another child is doing it so she'll do it, but she is a fairly agressive mimic in other ways.![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
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rivka.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
