posted
I'm so happy I have the parents I do... Red as their neck may be, they never pulled this kind of stunt, even though I gave them plenty of reason to.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Things like that just seem so bizarre to me. Did they really think they'd stop the wedding?
And, truly, if Lemuel came from an LDS family, the problems obviously go back further than just this weird couple. Who would name their kid that?
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quote: Myers said her parents picked her up August 4, the day before she was to be married at the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City, for what she thought was to be a quick shopping trip to get special religious clothing.
Instead, they drove south and east toward Colorado, Myers said.
"They told me Perry was evil and wicked and abusive," Myers said, referring to her fiance, now her husband.
They stopped at a gas station in Salina, 175 miles west of the Colorado line, where Myers used the bathroom.
When she emerged, her parents grabbed her by the wrists and hair, claiming she wasn't honoring her father and mother, Myers testified.
"I told them, 'I'm not going back in the van,"' Myers said. "They grabbed my wrists and put me back against the wall and were shouting all these doctrines at me. They told me, 'You're not worthy, you're wicked."'
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: I dunno BB, it might be. This article is referring to her recent testimony at the trial, after all.
--j_k
OH! I see, no that seems to be the case seeing as how she is now expecting a baby in May. Its doubtful she would be getting married in the temple if she was pregnant. Though not impossible I suppose.
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posted
Actually, I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. I believe that if you have committed a sexual sin, you have to wait a year before you can be considered worthy to go to the temple.
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posted
The article I remember being posted here was about the parents who kidnapped their daughter to make her have an abortion, since they didn't like her boyfriend.
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: The article I remember being posted here was about the parents who kidnapped their daughter to make her have an abortion, since they didn't like her boyfriend.
Thats the only other thread I could recall.
Jon: It would be purely up to their stake president, unless he asked for guidance from a higher up general authority. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the stake president would feel inspired to have them wait a very short amount of time. Not waiting at all would not be impossible IMO.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
At my old church a girl was excommunicated because she married a boy against her parents' wishes. Not because the church disapproved of the boy, mind you, but because she disobeyed her parents. Her parents disapproved of him because he was "too effeminate". He was doctrinally sound, came from a good family, was a good guy, was obviously in love with their daughter, but he was too effeminate. They refused to talk to her until she apologized, she refused to apologize, and so the church excommunicated her for not honoring her mother and father.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
. . . and I am suddenly glad both that my parents are extremely reasonable people, and that Jewish tradition specifically excludes choice of mate (among other things) from the commandment to honor your parents.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: . . . and I am suddenly glad both that my parents are extremely reasonable people, and that Jewish tradition specifically excludes choice of mate (among other things) from the commandment to honor your parents.
Rivka I was always fascinated with the scene in, "Fiddler On The Roof." When the youngest daughter marries a Christian. Her parents object obviously and the entire community holds a funeral service for the girl as she is basically "dead" to them. Later in the movie there is a scene where the father via his oldest daughter conveys the message, "God be with you," to this same daughter.
I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.
Um, which part do you mean when you say "this attitude"?
While most Orthodox Jews do not treat an intermarried child as dead (for a mix of reasons political and otherwise), neither do they treat them as married. Or attend such a wedding.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Actually, I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. I believe that if you have committed a sexual sin, you have to wait a year before you can be considered worthy to go to the temple.
Well, if the woman got a divorce from a previous husband (who fathered the child) and met, fell in love, got engaged, and married someone else within 9 months it would be perfectly allowable Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.
Um, which part do you mean when you say "this attitude"?
While most Orthodox Jews do not treat an intermarried child as dead (for a mix of reasons political and otherwise), neither do they treat them as married. Or attend such a wedding.
Oh I meant holding the funeral service in the wake of such a marriage. Could that be localized to that particular community? Just old fashioned? Or could you conceive of Orthodox Jews still doing this within certain localities?
Honestly not trying to be critical, I just saw this as a unique response to a moderately common occurence.
edit: Megan: I typically get, "If I was a rich man." In my head when I think about FOTR (not Fellowship of the...) In fact I have written a very light happy piano song that gleaned its inspiration from the first few bars of that song.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Oh I meant holding the funeral service in the wake of such a marriage. Could that be localized to that particular community? Just old fashioned?
Or maybe just a literary device the author made up to dramatically show how strongly the parents disapproved? Remember, it's a musical, not a documentary.
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quote:Oh I meant holding the funeral service in the wake of such a marriage. Could that be localized to that particular community? Just old fashioned? Or could you conceive of Orthodox Jews still doing this within certain localities?
It is only fairly recently that is has become UNcommon for parents to tear kriyah and sit shivah upon a child's intermarriage.
quote:Honestly not trying to be critical, I just saw this as a unique response to a moderately common occurrence.
God FORBID it should be "moderately common"! The customs have changed because they were ineffective, not because intermarriage has become acceptable!
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posted
rivka: sorry sorry! I meant "moderately common" in regards to folks marrying outside their faith, not Jews in particular.
Without looking can I assume that "tear kriyah and sit shivah" is "to rend ones clothes and to sit upon ashes?" Do they still sprinkle them upon their heads or did that typically stop with everything else?
edit: ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: . . . and I am suddenly glad both that my parents are extremely reasonable people, and that Jewish tradition specifically excludes choice of mate (among other things) from the commandment to honor your parents.
Rivka I was always fascinated with the scene in, "Fiddler On The Roof." When the youngest daughter marries a Christian. Her parents object obviously and the entire community holds a funeral service for the girl as she is basically "dead" to them. Later in the movie there is a scene where the father via his oldest daughter conveys the message, "God be with you," to this same daughter.
I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.
The book is different from the play. In the book, the daughter disappears and is never heard from again. There is no pseudo-reconciliation between father and daughter.
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quote:rivka: sorry sorry! I meant "moderately common" in regards to folks marrying outside their faith, not Jews in particular.
Ok. I apologize; this is a very touchy subject for me.
quote:Without looking can I assume that "tear kriyah and sit shivah" is "to rend ones clothes and to sit upon ashes?"
No ashes. Shivah (lit. seven) refers to the week of mourning.
I recommend reading the link; like most of jewfaq.com, it is an excellent overview of complex topics.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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BB: It's not a terribly recent musical, and there've been plenty of misrepresentations of various groups in various media. I was just pointing out that that was a possibility that you didn't list, rivka's post obviously shows otherwise. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Actually, I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. I believe that if you have committed a sexual sin, you have to wait a year before you can be considered worthy to go to the temple.
Well, if the woman got a divorce from a previous husband (who fathered the child) and met, fell in love, got engaged, and married someone else within 9 months it would be perfectly allowable
If you are divorced you must receive special permission from the quorum of the 12 (or possibly 1st Presidency) before you can be sealed in the temple. That generally takes months so it seems highly unlikely that the whole process could happen that fast.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?
<-- not ElJay
The musical is quite inaccurate on a number of points. I don't recall exactly how this one in particular was presented, so I can't speak to its accuracy.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?
<-- not ElJay
The musical is quite inaccurate on a number of points. I don't recall exactly how this one in particular was presented, so I can't speak to its accuracy.
You just killed one of my more fond memories by appealing to my academic side.
But in all honesty can you specify anything off the top of your head?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: The article I remember being posted here was about the parents who kidnapped their daughter to make her have an abortion, since they didn't like her boyfriend.
I know I read about this story months ago but I can't verify that it was here at Hatrack.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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But now I have my husband singing his version of "If I were a rich man" going through my head. Including the alternate lyrics he composed upon our viewing of The Mothman Prophecies.
posted
He is incredibly cool. Especially when he sings. I should share some of the alternate lyrics he came up with to Barney songs when the kids were little. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?
<-- not ElJay
The musical is quite inaccurate on a number of points. I don't recall exactly how this one in particular was presented, so I can't speak to its accuracy.
You just killed one of my more fond memories by appealing to my academic side.
But in all honesty can you specify anything off the top of your head?
The musical is dishonest to Shalom Aleichem's book, which is much more sordid than the play. As I said above the daughter who marries the gentile disappears from the novel. There's also a fourth daughter in the book who falls in love with a gentile, but he doesn't love her. She jumps into a river and kills herself. The book is much less warm and fuzzy than the play, and therefore more true to life, especially Jewish life in 19th century Russia.
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I resisted temptation to start singing Fiddler, but when I clicked on the link, I fell into your evil trap!
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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And all along I'd assumed she'd posted the same link she posted in the Ketchup Princess thread.
(This post has caused me more trouble. I've tried to post it three times, twice it simply disappeared and then it showed up with the wrong quote attached. I think Tante has cast some sort of curse on me).
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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