posted
I'm an old-timer around here, but I'm posting under an assumed name to further safeguard this person's identity.
I have a female acquaintance that I live with, about 20 years of age. I have been around and heard some of her conversations with her boyfriend. I have not really met him. As far as I know, he is about three or four years older than her. They are currently in a long-distance relationship. I've become increasingly concerned about her well-being. Her boyfriend seems to be pretty jealous and is uncomfortable when she hangs around certain guys, to the point of telling her she cannot spend time with them. This is partially because she got drunk once and kissed a guy. He does allow her to spend time with other guy friends of hers.
I've heard her crying while talking to her boyfriend several times. A few nights ago she talked to him on the phone. He fell asleep, so she said goodbye to him because she had some things she had to do. He woke up and apparently thought that she was going to go hang out with a guy he doesn't trust. She spent about three hours crying and explaining to him over and over that she just needed to go talk to one of her friends about something that was time-sensitive. She must have said the exact same thing several times.
She once left her cell phone here and went out. It rang several times because her boyfriend kept calling. It was driving me nuts, so I turned it off. Her boyfriend blew up at her when she got back because he thought she was ignoring him. Apparently right before she left, she'd said something that he misinterpreted as anger.
She's always telling him how great he is and how imperfect she is, and apologizing, and thanking him for forgiving her.
They can't wait to get married. I realize that it probably isn't my place, and that I shouldn't even have heard her conversations with her boyfriend. Believe me, I've tried to shut them out. I also realize that I don't really know her that well, and I don't know her boyfriend at all. But the things I've gleaned scream "Potential abuser!" at me. Should I just keep ignoring this? Is there a good chance I'm misinterpreting things?
posted
Screams of potential abuser? Are you kidding? He's systematically destroying any shred of self that she has left. He doesn't sound like a potential abuser. He sounds like he's getting his start with emotional abuse. It ain't likely to get better.
Usually, the abuser will destroy self-confidence, then isolate the abused from friends and family until the abused feels like she (using she for convencience in sentence structure only), and once that's done, he (again, for convenience only) will start in with the heavier stuff.
And then there's the honeymoon period whenever he steps over the line and it looks like she might leave him - anything to keep her coming back for more.
As to what to do - that's tough. How do you balance her right to do what she wants with her life versus your care and concern? I would say tread very carefully. If you're too over the top, she could get defensive and push herself even faster into the marriage, and that's not what you want either. You do, though, probably want to make it very clear to her that, no matter what happens, you'll always be her friend and you'll always be there for her. No matter what.
I also don't know what your relationship is like with her, and if she'd listen to you. You're the only one who can really judge that. I wish you luck. Lots and lots of luck.
Either one will help you figure out what you can do to help. Ultimately, it's her decision. But you can help get her the information she needs to possibly see this situation from a different perspective.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I believe you need to say something. I like the idea of first getting some public support on how to address the issue, via the number dagonee gave you or some community resource.
There is a good chance she will not listen to you, but even then, raising a red flag now will help her put future behavior in perspective.
Even if they get married, she will know that she has been warned and it may give her the light/strength to leave the relationship sooner.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I'll use this as an opportunity to plug it again: The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. If you can get her to read it, especially the chapter on spousal abuse, then it may help now or down the road. It might be best to get it, read it, and then give it to her without comment except that you liked it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
He couldn't possibly be unsure of her because of that fact that she kissed someone else and then tried to use being drunk as an excuse, right?
quote:Her boyfriend seems to be pretty jealous and is uncomfortable when she hangs around certain guys, to the point of telling her she cannot spend time with them. This is partially because she got drunk once and kissed a guy. He does allow her to spend time with other guy friends of hers.
Other than the "allow" part of it, that seems reasonable to me....stay away from teh guy you kissed, or others like him.....
I am not saying you don't have a point, but we are only getting one point of view on this, and it is a second hand point of view at that. I just love how everyone (alright, not everyone, but...) jumped right on his case here, without any idea of what is really going on here.
I would possibly mention my concerns, one on one in private, to your friend. There does seem to be reason for concern. However, it is her choice. She should know that you are worried, although once you have expressed these concerns, anything further is up to her.
Now, if SHE was the one posting this, I would be far more concerned....
Either he trusts her or not. If he doesn't trust her, then they have no future together. If he does, then he should act like it.
This is the line that made me think more information would be useful:
quote:She spent about three hours crying and explaining to him over and over that she just needed to go talk to one of her friends about something that was time-sensitive. She must have said the exact same thing several times.
posted
I've been there, I roomed with my cousin when she was involved with a boyfriend who was a controller and abuser.
I said things, I tried to talk to her. I did my best to build up her self-esteem because she stayed with him because "she was too fat and ugly to ever get anyone else." That was what he told her, of course.
The end result? She moved out and never spoke to me again. The boyfriend eventually dumped her, and she married someone on the rebound and divorced him and became a single mom with a daughter less than two years after the wedding.
It's hard not to say something, I know. Just be prepared the result may not be optimal.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I am not saying that that is what is happening here, but there are a lot of reasons that could apply here that we know nothing about, and it is persumtious of us to assume we know the situation as it stands now, based on our incomplete information.
You could be right......
You also could be wrong.
I do find it telling that everyone automatically assumes the worst right away, though.
Dag, I agree that more info could be helpful, as long as she seems receptive to it when it is offered. Perhaps she will see that she IS in a situation where she needs to be careful and cautious....or she will see that it doesn't apply to her situation.
I have heard good things about that book from a few different people,so it couldn't hurt.
posted
Turmoil, while Kwea is right that you may be only hearing one side of the story, I think you should at least casually bring up the topic and see if she is willing to talk about the situation.
Don't immediately accuse her bf of being a jerk. Just let her know that you care about her and that you are available for her if she needs someone to talk to.
Maybe you can ask her some general, hypothetical questions about long distance relationships and what she thinks of jealousy in general. Get to know her better before you start offering any specific opinions.
You have nothing to lose by talking to her. She is not a close friend and she will move out soon if she gets married. Go for it.
quote:I did my best to build up her self-esteem because she stayed with him because "she was too fat and ugly to ever get anyone else." That was what he told her, of course.
People like that deserve to have their toes shot off.
[ April 24, 2005, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Just another bad relationship, they will cut each other to pieces and live in tedium. So common it is not worth discussing really if it were not so painful to see.
Get her to sleep with another guy, pass the info to him and break them up. Sleep with her yourself if you can swing it!
posted
It is always appropriate to talk to her about signs of a potential abuser and unhealthy relationships. Even if she decides not to listen now, she may realize down the road that it's not right, and that may give her the strenght to get out of a bad relationship.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I am not saying that that is what is happening here, but there are a lot of reasons that could apply here that we know nothing about, and it is persumtious of us to assume we know the situation as it stands now, based on our incomplete information.
You could be right......
You also could be wrong.
I do find it telling that everyone automatically assumes the worst right away, though.
No, I am right - I just don't think you're appreciating what it is I'm saying. Certainly, I haven't assumed the worst.
I have not said this guy is abusing her.
I have not said this guy is going to abuse her.
I have not said that I "know the situation as it stands now."
I have said that some classic warning signs are present here.
I have said that it's worth finding out more information from experts. This information will contain not only more information on warning signs but also information on ways to productively talk to the friend.
I have recommended a particular book with lots of information.
I have said that more information is needed.
I have not assumed anything.
I'm not quite sure you find it necessary to label my advice "bull" when it's actually less invasive than yours. I recommended finding out more information before proceeding. you recommended going and talking to her immediately, without bothering to check with experts on this.
posted
Thanks for your input, y'all. I will try to figure out a way to bring up the subject gently and without accusing anyone of anything.
Kwea, I'm not assuming anything, and I am aware that I have incomplete information. That's one reason why I posted here: to see what other people thought, and to figure out if there are non-sinister explanations for what I've observed. The answer seems to be "Maybe, but those are some concerning signs."
Thanks for the resources, Dag. The website looked good.
Posts: 2 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I agree with Dagonee... and don't forget relationship blindness.
quote:But you can help get her the information she needs to possibly see this situation from a different perspective.
That's the important part. When I was in a similar relationship (to what this sounds like, I'm not saying it IS ), no one could talk me out of it; not parents, friends, my doctor. After I broke up with him, I could see everything that had been wrong. But not until afterwards. Perspective is everything.
If I may offer a potential way to open the conversation. (This of course is predicated on the fact that I think you SHOULD have a conversation with your friend about this).
You could simply say that you've listened to her side of several conversations and you are worried because it sounds like she's always having to apologize or justify herself. You could tell her that it sounds like she's putting herself down all the time and maybe letting this guy run her down or control her.
Basically, you may not even get this far in the conversation. You've been eavesdropping and she might tell you to back off and it's none of your business. If so, then back off. You've at least raised the concern and if there's any substance to it, she might think about it later.
If she is willing to keep the conversation going, you could talk about warning signs, etc.
But it's probably important to stress that you will back off if she asks, support her when/if she needs it, and in general, that you are in her corner.
ALSO: BIG CAUTION:
If she truly IS in an abusive relationship, are you prepared to help her if she needs it? This is not easy to go through. People often break up with and then go back to the abuser, multiple times. Even with severe physical and mental abuse, including sexual abuse. It's not pretty. Sticking by someone through all that, and their tendency to behave in ways contrary to their own self-preservation, is painful.
Just be aware that by opening this subject, you may be grabbing a tiger by the tail. If it comes to that, know your limits, be explicit as you can be about what you will and will NOT do. And try to help her to seek professional help early and often.
I hope that this "worst case" is not true, but the pattern of low-self-esteem and jealousy to the point of control is not uncommon in abusive relationships. One might say that's a defining pattern.
Oh...and long-distance does not equal safe or non-abusive/non-violent. So be careful if you become enmeshed in something more serious than you know how to handle. Don't overestimate the reasonableness of the "opposition" should it come to that.
PS: I'm not assuming anything, but if I were heading into this conversation, I would try to be prepared to face it if my worst fears were confirmed. It's only prudent to at least suspect that this is a relationship with strong potential for abuse and revise that opinion only on the basis of more facts.
Assuming your friend is "all right" just wouldn't seem like a wise course here.
PS: She kissed a guy, when drunk or not. Maybe SHE's wanting out of the relationship and doesn't have know how to break it off? Or maybe she's just not ready for an exclusive committed relationship. IMHO, at the very least these two need help to evaluate the future of their relationship regardless of this ominous undercurrent of self-loathing/jealousy.
By the way, is your friend suffering from depression? Is she functioning well in other areas of her life? Decision-making seems otherwise on par with normal self-interested peers?
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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I have been in this situation a couple of times, and it's never pretty. If she is willing to take this much abuse from someone (and yes, I do consider this situation to be absusive based on the info that you have provided), then her issues may run much deeper than her current boyfriend. Or, she just may be really young and not know that she deserves better. My friends 18 year old daughter was in a relationship that sounds very similar, where she was constantly apologizing for little things that her boyfriend didnt like. She was extremely affectionate with him, told him how much she loved him all the time, and he would still constantly question her love for him. He made her feel like crap about herself, and then accused her of looking for pity when she talked to us about it. I despised the little prick. I wanted to take him out back and beat the living s*** out of him, then ship him to Istanbul. But she loved him and was convinced they were going to get married, no matter what we tried to tell her. We tried being subtle, we tried introducing her to men who worshiped the ground she walked on, we tried sitting her down and telling her he was abusive and she didnt want to bring children into the world with him. Nothing worked. Fortunately, he broke up with her because he met someone else. But, now she is dating another, very cute, and very insecure boy who demands too much and gives to little. There is only so much you can do when a person is not willing to face the reality behind their actions. This girl sounds young and insecure, and it may be really, really difficult to convince her that she deserves better treatment. Maybe you could get to know her better, and then show her through your own example what it's like to be treated with trust and respect. Having such a sharp contrast of behavior right in front of her may wake her up a little.
And Bean Counter, while I can appreciate your sentiment, encouraging someone to cheat on thier lover in order to get rid of them is just going to compound the problem so much more.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
It is often more merciful to deliver a punch in the nose. I am becoming increasingly aware of the strange connection between brutality and mercy.
It is so often the attempt to deal in gentle goodness that does such harm in the long run, where brutality proves effective and uplifiting.
A surgeon is brutally cutting to cure disease for instance, and society is brutal when it hangs child molesters, yet another little girl does not spend her last moments in terror and pain because of that brutality.
I was once addicted to deep meaningful relationships, until I learned that shallow ones caused less harm and better feelings after.
posted
I don't know if you need to say anything, just don't let the guy isolate you out of the girl's life.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Either he trusts her or not. If he doesn't trust her, then they have no future together. If he does, then he should act like it.
How is telling people you have never met what to do less invasive than anything I have mentioned/recommended? That is the part of your advice I thought was bull.
As far as the rest of it, perhaps you should look at my posts again.... I seconded not only getting more advice, I even said that the book you recommended was a good one, or at least that I heard it was a good one from a number of sources (yourself included). At best it may have some good points to bring up, and at worse it couldn't hurt reading up on situations like this, and worse.
What aggravated me a little is that you assumed more than a little....you assumed that you knew best even though you have never met them IRL, or even had anything more than a 3rd hand partial description of what might be their situation.
He could be unsure of her, and trying to find out if he can trust her, or she could have given him all sorts of signals before this that she is not to be trusted, and he is questioning her for good reasons. It could be that neither of them are perfect, but they feel that their relationship is worth saving.
None of these possibilities are covered by your statements above. You posed the problem in black and white, even though you admittedly don't know enough to be sure one way of another.
To be honest, it is also possible, if not probable, that you are correct, and he is the jerk. That happens a lot, and if you are in the relationship often it is easy to blame yourself for things that aren't your fault...
At no point did I recommend anything other than politely mentioning the concerns in private, and being willing to listen to her vent if necessary. If she seems to resent talking about it, or seems unresponsive, then you have no other choice...it is her decision, and the choice is one she has to make for herself.
10 to one that is what the experts recommend as well to someone in this situation, for someone caught between people she doesn't really know well.
I know that is what we recommended when people would call the abuse hotline I worked at in college. Not everyone was calling about their situation, although a lot of people did do the "it isn't me, it is about a friend" routine too.... However, we did have some calls that were people worried about their friends, and wondering how to broach the subject with them.
My whole point was that a lot of bias was showing in the responses here, and I felt it important enough to mention.
Until you posted what you felt he "should or shouldn't" do, I had thought your posts to be spot on, Dag.
Kwea
PS.
quote: I was once addicted to deep meaningful relationships, until I learned that shallow ones caused less harm and better feelings after.
Strange but true.
BC, that says more about you than it does about anything else.
quote:How is telling people you have never met what to do less invasive than anything I have mentioned/recommended? That is the part of your advice I thought was bull.
You missed the point: I wasn't telling anyone what to do when I said, "If he's that unsure, he should dump her. Either he trusts her or not. If he doesn't trust her, then they have no future together. If he does, then he should act like it." He isn't here. Turmoil isn't contemplating talking to him. I'm not telling anyone what to do.
posted
You weren't telling Turmoil what to do....I realize that.
You were stating, unequivocally, what you felt was the correct course of action for someone you don't know, about a situation you really know nothing about.
Sorry if I came across snippy, it has been a long weekend for me so far.
As I said, I have heard good things about that book lately, I might even pick it up myself, as I have an interest in those types of things myself.
It also strikes me that you probably didn't know I have a fairly strong background in psychology as well as being an EMT in the Army, so you didn't know why I had such a strong reaction to some of the earlier advice given by others recently. It just seemed that a lot of people jumped right in and bashed the guy here, without it even remotely possible for them to know the whole situation...something I have seen happen over and over again.
It isn't always the guys fault. It isn't always someones fault at all, some people are just not a good match for each other. It isn't possible to be sure of what is really happening in these situations without being one of the people involved yourself.
People bring their own prejudices to these sorts of problems, and I was merely pointing out the most obvious of them, as I saw it.
Yes, say something -- gently. Be there for her. Let her know your concerns about what's going on. However, once you've said your piece, follow her lead. You cannot force recognition on someone who isn't ready for it. Also, part of what abuse is is taking control away from someone. Ultimately, she has to make her own decisions. If you're fortunate, she might let you help her work through that decision making process.
It sounds as if an abusive pattern is being established within the relationship (yes, yes, I know. "Sounds as if" based on second hand information told via the Internet. Granted). Abuse is a continuum of experiences; it doesn't have to be just physical. However, what you generally find in abusive relationships is that the physical abuse is an extreme attempt to maintain control over someone by physical coercion followed up by intimidation. That is why even one physical incident can maintain a relationship that is abusive... if she knows she's been hurt once, than what's to guarantee it won't happen again?
Depending on her response to your overtures, you might want to have a copy of this handy. If she's receptive at all, the P&C wheel can be very helpful. If she doesn't want to hear it, insists nothing is wrong, and really doesn't want to talk to you about it, it might not do much good.
Generally, what you see in physically abusive relationships is that there is a pattern of behavior meant to maintain control over the victim including such things as isolation, blaming her for his behavior, and emotional abuse. If the abuser feels that control slipping in one area, he or she will probably redouble efforts to control. That is a big part of why it's very difficult for women to leave these relationships. On average, women who leave them make about 7 unsuccessful attempts to leave.
I don't think you're overreacting. I think it sounds like you have legitimate concerns and are looking for a sensitive way to express them. I wish you all kinds of luck in doing that.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Mar 2005
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