This really makes me mad. Why desecrating an American flag is protected speech is beyond me. And for someone to advocate the overthrow of the American government...why is that guy not in jail? Though I'm sure the FBI is watching these guys, it bothers me that we even allow these kinds of protests to go on.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Crotalus: This really makes me mad. Why desecrating an American flag is protected speech is beyond me. And for someone to advocate the overthrow of the American government...why is that guy not in jail? Though I'm sure the FBI is watching these guys, it bothers me that we even allow these kinds of protests to go on.
Frankly, it bothers me that there are those who don't want to allow those sorts of protests to go on. The whole idea of freedom insists that you allow others to disagree and protest against things that you believe in. It's okay that it makes you mad--it's incredibly ironic that the freedom that protects them from being thrown in jail is exactly the freedom that the America that they hate so much stands for. But still...it's not really freedom if only ideas that you agree with are allowed to be spoken/demonstrated.
And as for someone advocating the overthrowing of the American government... while I don't think war is the answer to this, I sure do think sometimes it would be nice to overhaul the entire corrupted system. Maybe insist that the rich and the politicians can't hold office anymore--only people who have demonstrated real character who are not in it for money or power--but how would you measure that anyway?
How about we let each citizen participate in judging the various candidates on these qualities. They could get together once a year and write down the name of people they think exhibit those traits. Then we could have someone count it all up and tell us who the winner is.
quote:Why desecrating an American flag is protected speech is beyond me.
quote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances
.
It is protected speech because it is peaceful, and it is petitioning the government for a redress of grievances. Flag-burning and desecration should be protected speech because it is nonviolent expression of discontent with the government.
As to why he wasn't arrested for attempting to overthrow the American government with violence...well, I suppose two reasons. One, it may not have been specific enough. He says they reject law and order, America, and Congress, and that people should topple America. This could be done in many ways.
The second, more obvious reason is that if we started jailing every fanatic on a streetcorner who protested America, we'd be stupidly playing into their hands and creating more of them for no real gain at all.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I do think there should be a line that you don't cross when it comes to these sorts of things. If they hate America that much, why don't they just get the hell out. If you don't love America, even though it does have flaws, then go to Saudi Arabia or something. While I do believe in freedom, and served in the US Navy for four years protecting that freedom, I don't think it should be absolute. There are always limits. As the old saying goes; your right to swing your fists ends at my nose. Free speech is the same way, you can't just yell "fire" in a crowded theater, unless there really is a fire. There are laws against treason in this country, anyone advocating the overthrow of the American government is in violation of these laws. Desecration of the American Flag on American soil should not be protected speech, it should be rightly called treason.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:There are laws against treason in this country, anyone advocating the overthrow of the American government is in violation of these laws. Desecration of the American Flag on American soil should not be protected speech, it should be rightly called treason.
The Constitution disagrees in Article III, Section 3, Clause 1:
quote:Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
These actions fall under neither prong of that test.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
You know, I'm glad that these people felt free to openly make this video. Leaving aside the protecting free speach means protecting it even when you really disagree with it issue, I think it's usually great when my enemies have a chance to really speak their minds. For one thing, it's much better than them plotting in secret. This sounds like almost rebellious teen posturing. "Oooh, we're so bad. We ripped up the American flag." For another, it let's people see them for who they are. Nearly any person who is impressed by that was already pretty firmly in that camp anyway. And, if they weren't before, you better believe that U.S. intelligence are up these guys butts now.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
There is always somebody against your opinion, against your politic, against what you are. Just because i'm french, many people dislike on the world. Or because, i am white. Or because i said yes to the constitution... Do not be unaware of them, but do not be so irritate. You wrote it : they are idiot.
Posts: 1189 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Those are pretty much the same reasons I oppose taking down the white supremecist websites, Squick.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I do think there should be a line that you don't cross when it comes to these sorts of things. If they hate America that much, why don't they just get the hell out. If you don't love America, even though it does have flaws, then go to Saudi Arabia or something.
The Founding Fathers were clever enough and had the foresight enough to realize that people did and would continue to think this way, and thankfully put up a nearly-insurmountable barrier against that kind of undemocratic, unAmerican thinking, Crotalus.
Land of the free comes before the part about bravery. We hold these truths to be self-evident? All men are created equal? These aren't all laws, but they're certainly part of our national soul, so to speak.
People have the right to express disgust or outrage with the American government by burning our flag. That's what being free means, that they get to determine how they protest, not you. Burning a flag neither forces another person to commit violence, nor offers a compelling argument or exhortation in and of itself that other people should act violently.
It isn't treason, it's peaceful assembly and protest. Their fist has not impacted your nose when they burn the flag.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere.
--Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787. FE 4:370
quote:God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?
--Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787. ME 6:372
quote:The people cannot be all, and always, well-informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.
--Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.
I couldn't remember the exact quotes, of course, so I got them from this website: Revolutions and Rebellions. It looks like it's just a personal page, but the quotes look right... and the author makes a distinction between revolution and rebellion.
quote: Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me,
But only to a point, right?
quote: There are always limits. As the old saying goes; your right to swing your fists ends at my nose. Free speech is the same way, you can't just yell "fire" in a crowded theater, unless there really is a fire.
I don't think these are accurate analogies at all.
Frankly, I think it is unAmerican to want flag burning to be made illegal. It goes against what this country was founded on.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Further, it is perfectly permissible in using the means of protest in evaluating the motivations and good will of the protestors. If you think burning the flag automatically makes one a bad person, then you are free to spread that message.
For example, a video showing this demonstration and lack of coercive response next to exhortations from Bin Laden to kill all those who he thinks need to be killed (the definition keeps changing) and various scenes of crackdowns on protestors from certain regimes might be a powerful rhetorical tool.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I hope these guys actions encourage people to speak up and denounce 'militant' Islam. I hope their fellow Muslims would be the first to do this....
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I did serve in the US Navy as well (and as one of my favorite jokes, what does Navy stand for? Never Again Volunteer Yourself ) and I do think people have a right to protest in ways they see fit, such as burning a flag, a cross, a Koran, the Constitution, Belgium's flag, or a picture of a duck as long as they are doing it safely and peaceably. Along the same lines, I have ever right to protest their protest by proudly waving my American flag (or cross, Koran, the Constitution, Belgium's flag, a picture of a duck) where they are holding their protest burning a flag (and on and on). As long as they are peaceful and not using burning flags to burn down a neighborhood, then let them protest. If it makes you mad, you can simply get a bigger flag and display it proudly in front of them, just be peaceable about it.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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You can't lead mass groups, like entire classrooms and football stadiums and the entire school over the intercom, in prayer.
It's all about respecting OTHER people's rights not to pray in a manner they don't believe in or their right not to pray at all.
Students are perfectly free to bow their heads and pray whenever they feel like it. They can even meet together before and after school and during lunch if they so choose. It's forcing prayer on OTHERS that's the wrong thing.
quote:They can even meet together before and after school and during lunch if they so choose.
Actually, under Federal law, schools can prevent religious clubs from meeting during lunch - they only have to provide equal facilities access before and after regular school hours. At least according to the legislative history of the federal bill protecting religious groups' access to school facilities.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
You can pray anytime you want. You just can't force someone else to listen to it. And since children are not allowed to leave the classroom anytime they want...
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Actually, under Federal law, schools can prevent religious clubs from meeting during lunch - they only have to provide equal facilities access before and after regular school hours. At least according to the legislative history of the federal bill protecting religious groups' access to school facilities.
Okay. I stand corrected. Thanks. I was thinking as I was typing that, that there might be some logistical reason why a school might not allow clubs to meet during lunch--and that's what a prayer group would be considered. But I stand by the rest of my statement.
posted
I never said you could burn the flag in school.
"Hey, I'm a lawyer. I read unnecessary meaning into things."
And why is it that if someone wants to pray aloud, that's not allowed (mmm...homonyms)in school?
Couldn't the argument be made that praying aloud is the same as talking to yourself, just don't listen if it bothers you.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I never said you said you could burn the flag in school.
And people can pray aloud in school, in any situation where students may talk freely (i.e., lunch, recess, free periods, in halls between classes) as opposed to during class when student speech is supposed to be dedicated to a particular purpose.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Since when is it okay to speak out in class in ways that do not contribute to the lesson's discussion?? It would be completely rude and arrogant to the teacher and other students if a student suddenly started praying out loud in school, and I think God would certainly agree with me there.
Also, interrupting class like that infringes on the other students' rights to learn and get an education.
It's not fair to expect other students to tune the prayer out.
Hey, I also don't think that the school should allow students to get out little mats and pray to Mecca either.
And if a student is NOT in a classroom setting, where are they? Walking down a busy hallway, praying outloud? I don't know if that's against the law, but I've never heard anybody say that it is. It just makes the prayer look really odd and pretentious. I suppose they have a right to be that way.
Or is the student praying a solitary prayer that just happens to be broadcast on the intercom system? Yeah... THAT doesn't infringe on any rights. Uh huh.
So where is this aloud praying going on? Because if you're suggesting it should be allowed in the classroom, then good luck getting anything taught in schools--it's bad enough already. Just imagine if students know that the government SANCTIONS their talking out in class.
"Dear God, why must our teacher give us such a hard test? Please, let the other students remember that the answer to number 1 is A, and 2 is B..."
posted
/That certainly will not garner much sympathy around here. /
You were wrong about that, eh Porteiro?
/Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort./
define "adhering to their Enemies." To me flag burning and talking about toppling the government fits right in with this. To me it MAKES you the enemy.
Wanting to ban flag burning doesn't mean I don't support the first amendment. There are already limits on what you can say and do. I just happen to think that flag burning should be one of those things you can't do. And to call for the overthrow of the federal government is an act of sedition.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
If all flags were flame-retardent, somebody would get rich by developingng and selling inflammable flags.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Wanting to ban flag burning doesn't mean I don't support the first amendment.
Yes, it does. Burning the flag does not equal an act of sedition. Maybe in your eyes it does, but the Constitution-that document that governs our country-disagrees. It trumps you.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
"If you don't love America, even though it does have flaws, then go to Saudi Arabia or something."
Oh, one of those.
There are a ton of things I disagree with America about, and things that I don't love about America, but that doesn't mean I still don't love the idea of America. I've always been one to like the idea of America more than what America really is, as I don't think at the moment we are living up to our potential, or to our mandate.
I think burning the American flag is the right of any citizen, an act to display their right of protest against an unfavorable act committed by our government. I don't think I agree with tearing, ripping and stepping on the flag. Don't ask me to pin down the difference between them, but to me burning seems somehow more clean and honorable. Isn't flag burning part of the process you have to go through to dispose of a tattered flag? I know ripping and stomping isn't.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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And I'm quite aware that my opinion is trumped because of the way the first amendment is interpreted. That is fine. All I've been stating all along is my opinion. That first amendment rights should not protect desecrating the flag.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I simply think it falls under a category other than free speech.
To quote myself : define "adhering to their Enemies." To me flag burning and talking about toppling the government fits right in with this. To me it MAKES you the enemy.
Consider this: If I say something about wanting to kill the president I can get in serious trouble. Free speech doesn't mean you can say or do anything.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
By one of those, I meant you're a LILI, Love It or Leave It. These people tend to annoy me, as they seem more willing to kick people out who want to change something, rather than recognize a problem and try to fix it themselves. Not saying you fit into all of that, but most LILIs do.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Port, I've seen many flag-retiring ceremonies where the flag was very respectfully burned, and in none of them was the blue field cut out.
If something had been done to the flag to make it "not a flag" anymore, then in my mind there would be no reason for the very inspiring ceremony of burning the flag. You could just chuck it at that point.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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And I'm quite aware that my opinion is trumped because of the way the first amendment is interpreted. That is fine. All I've been stating all along is my opinion. That first amendment rights should not protect desecrating the flag.
One of those Love it or Leave it types. Blind love and devotion for your country does not make a person a good citezen. America must learn to live up to all the hype and advertising. Personally I think flag burning is rather unnessasarily destructive and doesn't really do much good, but, if people want to do it as a form of protest, they have the right. Same with toppling the government. Even our founding fathers believed the constitution should be rewritten. What is wrong with objecting to a government you find disfavourable? Isn't it better than just accepting what you believe is wrong?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
To clarify, it it's done as a respectuful way to retire the flag, burning an intact flag doesn't bother me.
quote:f something had been done to the flag to make it "not a flag" anymore, then in my mind there would be no reason for the very inspiring ceremony of burning the flag. You could just chuck it at that point.
I would still find that disrespectful.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Thanks Lyrhawn. I'm all for change when it's for the better, as is any rational person. Honestly, I don't know if I fit your definition or not. I do know that I get tired of people blaming America for everything. America is not the Great Satan that some people make it out to be. We do a lot of good in the world. Have we made mistakes. Yes. And we will again. But we are not the cause of all the world's problems. I also believe that if you live in America and enjoy all the freedoms that we have, you should have a love for it, despite any shortcomings. No America is not perfect. What country is? Still, this is a land that I dearly love, and its flag is a symbol not only of the country itself, but of everything good and right about it. I realize others see it completely different. These people that desecrated the flag do not want to change America for the better, they want to eradicate it. They want to replace it with an oppressive system that will strip away freedom and require you to adhere to their ideology or be killed. I'm not for killing any of these people. But I do think they are treasonous and dangerous. I do think they should be viewed as the threat they are and removed from society. Put them in jail, give them a ticket to whatever place wants them, just don't wait around doing nothing until they try to make good on their threats.
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