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MoralDilemma
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and because someone in my family may see this, I am using an alias. I've been on Hatrack more than a year, however, so I apologize for the deception.

The situation is this: I have just found out that my 17-year-old niece is about 5 weeks pregnant and wants an abortion. Our church is firmly against abortion, as am I personally, and her older sister and her mother (my sister).

My niece is afraid she won't be able to go to college unless she has an abortion and won't listen to alternatives. From what I can figure, if she has the baby, it should be born in June, so she should be able to finish high school, even if she has to attend the alternative school. She wants to go to prom, but doesn't want to go pregnant. I'm concerned that she doesn't realize that there are other consequences that follow that choice. I've heard of women who bitterly regret having an abortion later.

Apparently my niece thinks her mom wants to raise the baby. That's possible. I'm hoping my niece will consider having the baby and letting it be adopted through our church.

Any advice? I don't know what to do. I realize my role in this is going to be limited - probably only to the point of giving advice to my sister and older niece. I suggested that my younger niece should see a doctor and our bishop to begin with. But so far, the only person with whom I'm discussed this is my older niece.

Any resources people can suggest for information? I will be searching online, but am willing to take suggestions there, too. I've set up my profile so I can be emailed through the forum only.

Thanks in advance

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TomDavidson
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I wrote a long reply to this originally, but then thought about it a little more and concluded that, quite simply, it's ultimately none of your business.

And I mean that in the most non-judgemental way possible, in that while it's absolutely right of you to care, and absolutely right of you to want to help, there is nothing I can think of that you might do in this situation that would be constructive besides what I imagine you would do by default: extend your love and support, and demonstrate your faith through example.

Your niece has some very hard choices to make, and has already made a few. Unless you're close enough to her to know what she's feeling and what she should do -- and if you were, you wouldn't be posting this thread -- attempting to influence those choices would at this point be, IMO, counterproductive.

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romanylass
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This may not at all be an option for you...

but given that situation, I would offer to adopt the baby myself.

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MoralDilemma
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You've got a point, TD. However, I'm thinking that she's making a hasty decision that will affect the rest of her life - without enough information or time to make a decision. It sounds like she found out about the pregnancy and focused on the abortion option without really thinking about alternatives.

Her sister suggested that we (meaning the whole family) leave her alone about it for a few days, so she can think about it without getting defensive. Maybe by thinking about it she will change her mind on her own.

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MoralDilemma
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romanylass: If our family situation would allow for that, I would. (She probably wouldn't want that any more than she wants her mom to raise the baby.) But, finances and other things are in the way. And, maybe she'll be more inclined to continue the pregnancy if she can have the baby adopted and not have any more contact with the baby. I think I would be happy with that (understanding that, no it's not my responsibility, but yes it's my concern).

And, apparently the young man involved offered to help pay for an abortion. His mom knows, but his dad doesn't.

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Allegra
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I agree with Tom. I think the best thing you can do is make sure she knows that you are there for her and that you love her.

If you have the right relationship with her you could sit down with her and talk to her about her options. If you do this it is really important that you listen to her and try not to judge. Talk to her as if she is an equal. She will be more likely to open up to you and to listen to what you say

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Teshi
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quote:
she's making a hasty decision that will affect the rest of her life
Any decision she makes at this point is going to emotionally affect the rest of her life, no matter what it is. Giving a living child up for adoption is going to be just as painful, if not more, than giving up the child before it is carried to term.
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MandyM
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The fact that you know about it at all shows that your opinions are important to her even if she is not showing it right now. She could have just gone and gotten the abortion without ever telling her family at all even if that is not legal where you are.

You and your niece are more than welcome to email me anytime(with your alias or not). I have firsthand experience with this situation. Good luck and God bless you.

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rivka
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MD, is your niece in a state that requires parental permission to have an abortion?
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kacard
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The advice to stay out of it is about the worst I've heard in this situation. Sounds like you come from a very close family and there are ways you can be a loving, supportive influence. I've emailed you privately with my best advice -- if you don't get it let me know.

Kristine

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Valentine014
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I think you are very kind person to care so much for your niece, but I think that is the issue, she is your niece, not your daughter. An aunt's place is to, like Tom said, guide her by example.

I recently had a friend in a similar situation, she chose to abort the baby. Thanks to some of the people here, I was able to (mostly) refrain from butting in and found I was a better friend by just being there and listening, not solving her problem for her.

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TomDavidson
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I would hasten to point out that there's a huge difference between extending your love and support and demonstrating your faith by example and "staying out of it." [Smile]

But more concrete intervention is indeed, IMO, none of your business. If your sister asks you for advice, great. If your niece asks you for advice, great. But I wouldn't automatically assume that the role you need to play here is any more proactive than simply being a pillar of strength. And I say "simply" knowing full well that being a pillar of strength is in fact darn hard to do.

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kacard
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Tom -- I don't know how much experience you have in these situations. But I have quite a lot. Your advice here is simply wrong. For the sake of Moral Dilemma I hope you stay out of this conversaton.
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dawnmaria
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Is there any way you can have her speak with someone who has been through this? Maybe she can ask them things she can't ask you all. She feels trapped right now and if you're not in her position you don't understand no matter how much you love and want to help her. Leaving her alone for a few days is a good idea. Let her calm down. Telling all of you was probably the hardest thing she's ever done and she is feeling scared and maybe embarassed as well. But when she gets over it see if she'll go to talk to someone. Not just a ProLife someone either. You'd be surprised what talking to someone who made the other choice can do to a person. If you can find a non judgemental person who's been there to answer her questions, IMO, you've done the best thing you can do. Then be supportive of her NO MATTER WHAT SHE CHOOSES! Even if it is not what you would want for her! There will be guilt no matter what and she'll need ya'll to love her. I will pray for you all to have the strength to get through this.
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MoralDilemma
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I can't even use initials here in case a family member comes across the thread. My older niece told me about her younger (17-year-old) sister. I haven't talked to the younger niece about this. My sister didn't want me to know - my guess is because she probably thinks we would want to adopt the baby (I made a similar suggestion many years ago when she was abandoned by her husband and had very young kids). I will not be making that suggestion now. Yes, I would love to have a baby. No, I'm not in a position to do that right now.

I really think that if she has the baby and gives it up for adoption, she can do the things she's planning - finish high school and go to college. I'm hoping that panic will subside and she will be able to think more clearly about alternatives.

My older niece has a friend who has been in this situation. She's hoping to have this friend talk to her sister.

rivka: I think our state does require parental permission, but neighboring states might not. I tried looking at the state code and was thoroughly confused.

Given Tom's belief system, I understand what he's saying. My belief system is not the same as his, so I may not take his advice, but I'm going to take the point of view that he means well.

I do appreciate all your comments. I came looking for advice and a bit of a place to vent my worry. I have found that. My panic is beginning to subside. That is what I was expecting from Hatrack and that is what I found. Thank you. I will continue to check this thread and post here as MD.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
I think our state does require parental permission, but neighboring states might not. I tried looking at the state code and was thoroughly confused.

Then you need to make sure everyone involved is careful; in some states with parental consent laws, it is against the law for an adult to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of getting an abortion without consent of the parents.
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Storm Saxon
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Not to be rude, but there just seems to be something missing in this whole story. I have a lot of questions. If the family has clearly communicated to your neice that college isn't an issue, that they'll take care of the birth, etc, and she's been brought up in, or at least surrounded by, a belief system that says abortion is murder, what's going on with this girl that she's so rebellious and absolutely has to go to the prom unpregnant? Why was she having sex in the first place? Where's the father? What's his and his family's opinion in all of this? Why is she willing to basically burn all her bridges between her family and her church? Were there any bridges to begin with?

I hope things resolve themselves in the best possible fashion, moral, and am sorry your family is going through this tough time.

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Sterling
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There are women who regret having abortions for a long time. There are women who have abortions and know they've made the right decision, like one of my college friends. A lot of how the young woman comes to terms with her decision emotionally will depend on the pressures and influences she comes under now.

I understand it may be hard, but it's most important that she know that it's her decision and that her family will continue to support and love her, no matter what she does.

I feel sorry for her and the young man; it's an awful position to be in. I hope he's man enough to support her if she chooses not to abort, not just if she decides to do so.

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Treason
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I have been through this situation and my advice is to tell her how you feel but don't try to convince her of anything. Definetly be her moral support and comfort her in whatever decision she makes. The abortion may be the best solution for her, or it may not. You will never know because we can't go back later and see what would have been. If she does do it, I suggest you never, never make her feel like a bad person for it, she's going to feel guilty enough as it is.
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MoralDilemma
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quote:
Then you need to make sure everyone involved is careful; in some states with parental consent laws, it is against the law for an adult to transport a minor across state lines for the purpose of getting an abortion without consent of the parents.
She has her own car and can drive about an hour to a different state.

The baby's father wasn't a steady boyfriend or anything - apparently it was a one-time deal. He's offered to help pay for an abortion. I think his mom knows about this but not his dad. My other niece thinks her mom and the boy's parents need to sit down and talk about this, but the boy doesn't want his dad to know about it.

I think she's just as likely to go to college if she has the baby as if she doesn't. There are other factors - her family is poor. Her mom won't be able to help pay for college, but she will qualify for grants and loans, if she really wants to go. Having a baby doesn't have to stop those plans. Okay, it would be embarrassing to go to prom pregnant, but you know what? Going to prom isn't a prerequisite for graduation. You don't even have to go to graduation to graduate - I didn't go to mine, due to a death in the family.

And, I'm in the position of someone who didn't go to church for a long time. During that time I did some things that I wish I hadn't done. But, (to my mind) nothing on this scale of importance. So, the notion of her having regrets later is very much on my mind. To quell speculation on the matter, we are LDS.

And, this whole thing makes me feel helpless and worried. I have children of my own. I don't know what I would do if in a few years one of my kids came to me with this situation. You can never tell, when you look at the sweet face of a young child, what trials will come to them.

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TL
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Hmmm... I think it is very, very unlikely that the real reason she wants to have an abortion is because she doesn't want to go to prom pregnant.

I can't imagine that.

I'm guessing she may have said that to her sister, along with a lot of other things, in a panicked state, and her sister -- disapproving of the pregnancy and being upset with the girl over the whole issue -- told you it had something to do with prom. That's human.

Aborting a baby to go a dance is not.

There are many, many good reasons for your neice not to have this baby. And there are many good reasons for your neice to have the baby.

But ultimately she should not be forced to carry the baby to term when a safe medical solution (abortion) is available.

Just my two cents.

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TL
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In other words, I think love and care should be shown in providing your neice with as much support as possible, but the final decision should be hers. Keep religion out of it.
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Storm Saxon
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MD, who is going to pay for the medical bills for the baby if she has it? That may very well be one of the things she's thinking about. From discussions we've had on this board regarding the issue of abortion, I believe people have mentioned that if the baby is adopted, the people doing the adopting will usually pay for the medical bills. This might be something you can verify and tell her.

As far as that goes, is it possible to sweeten the pot? If money is an issue, is it possible that she could get both the medical bills payed for and some money for college for adopting out her baby? That way, you are engaging a carrot to get her to do what you want to do. [Smile]

Another question that I have is, is it possible that she wants to have an abortion because she wants to avoid the condemnation from her local church/ward?

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LadyDove
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My neighbor adopted two boys over the last 4 years. The mother, in both cases, was a young girl who wasn't ready to take on another responsibility.

During the last 3 monthes of pregnancy, when the pregnancy was most obvious, the mother was flown to California and became a "niece" to my neighbors. My neighbors got to be involved in the pregnancy and the mother got to "be on vacation" as far as prying eyes from home were concerned.

My neighbors tried for 7 years to have a child. The effort cost them much financially, emotionally and physically. Once they decided to adopt, it was another two years before they found their first son. They say that the wait was worth it. They love being parents and are very good at it.

Before I knew this story, I might have been less able to say to a pregnant teen who saw a child as the end of her future, that there can really be a happy ending for her, her child and someone who desperately wants and is able to take care of a new life. Now, I wouldn't hesitate to say with conviction that she may be able to answer her own as well as someone elses prayer.

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Treason
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"That way, you are engaging a carrot to get her to do what you want to do."

>.<
That sounds slimy...
I know you mean well but, ugh.

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quidscribis
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I was friends with a woman, about 20 or 21 - we were in the same LDS singles ward - who was pregnant. She stayed in that ward throughout her entire pregnancy and gave it up for adoption. She remained in that ward after, as well. Everyone knew what was going on - there was no way to hide that she was very obviously pregnant near the end.

She was treated, as far as I saw, with kindness and compassion. While there may have been negative comments, I never saw it or heard of them.

I don't know whether she met the adoptive parents - I don't remember - but I do know that they had contact after the adoption. The adoptive parents wrote her letters telling her how her child was doing, growing up, that sort of thing. This woman knew that what she did, in giving up the child, was the best thing she could have done.

It can be done. Granted, it took a great deal of courage, and she was older than your neice, but it can be done.

MoralDilemma, I understand your desire to help and I understand that you're probably looking at this from the eternal perspective. I wish you luck. This is a tough situation.

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Shigosei
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MD, it looks to me like you have a difficult choice regarding your priorities. What's most important to you right now? The life of the unborn child? Your niece's right to make her own decisions? Your relationship with your niece and her family? Your niece's future (which will be affected either way, whether she has an abortion or whether she gives birth)?

I wouldn't condemn a person for choosing some of those things over others, though I think that none of them can be excluded from your decision. Whatever you think is the most important element will probably help you determine how much you need to be involved, and what you need to do.

I would echo that whatever happens, do not make your niece feel guilty for what she has done. I doubt it will help anyone, and it's not as if she can take back her actions.

Good luck.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

Tom -- I don't know how much experience you have in these situations. But I have quite a lot. Your advice here is simply wrong. For the sake of Moral Dilemma I hope you stay out of this conversaton.

While I of course have never been a niece nor an aunt, I have a fair amount of experience with abortion -- from both a second-hand and a third-hand experience. And I also have a few aunts, for what it's worth.

And unless people have very different relationships with their aunts in other parts of the country -- which I'll freely grant is a possibility -- I can't imagine anything usefully meddlesome an aunt could do in this situation. This may of course be a culture clash, but I speak with a fair bit of certainty when I say that an aunt or uncle who tried to involve themselves in this sort of conversation in Chicago would get a very chilly reception.

It's also worth keeping in mind that my "belief system" when it comes to abortion is perhaps not as easily predicted as one might think. [Smile] I actually agree that in this situation adoption is probably the most consistently moral and responsible behavior available to the girl at this point. However I strongly disagree with the assumption that an aunt -- brought into the situation against her sister's wish by the older sister of the girl actually considering the abortion -- has been invited to involve herself in this issue; I worry that presuming this is the case could easily create ill will and a resistance to moral authority at a time when these are the last things needed.

Obviously, none of us know the specific details of the case. But I hesitate to suggest that any advice on the issue -- short, perhaps, of "kill them all and take their stuff" -- is "simply wrong," since it's clear that MD is at this point merely trawling for various options and opinions. She has deliberately provided only enough information for us to give her gut reactions, not informed advice, and I'd like to believe that it's because she's looking for a wide range of possibilities. As I was writing a much longer post about possible ways to get her niece to consider adoption, it occurred to me that one possibility that MD had to consider here -- and which had not at that point been expressed -- is that her involvement has not been solicited and may not be welcomed.

That's not a determination any of us on this thread can make, and I'm glad to see that she's considering it in the open-ended spirit in which that observation was offered.

[ October 10, 2005, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Minerva
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It is also not clear that the older sister was "authorized" by the pregnant sister to tell the aunt.

So getting invovled could cause a sibiling fight, and lose the pregnant sister a confidante and a source of support.

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El JT de Spang
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This is an unfortunate situation. But these things are what family are great for. I say just be there with support and comfort, and if you are asked what you think, be honest.
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Will B
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There's a difference in having an opinion and wanting to help. MoralDilemma, I think if you communicate that you are eager to help (money, time, sympathetic ear), without strings attached including "you owe me one" or "you have to admit you're wrong," this may well show her that you really care and you're one to be trusted: and so she may turn to love. I think you're already doing this, and I really hope it works out.
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Brinestone
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Here's my two cents:

Storm Saxon, I hate to admit it, but some of the girl's motivation for wanting the abortion may be that she is afraid of the embarassment she will feel around her LDS friends as her belly begins to swell and everyone knows she's a sinner. That isn't to say that her friends will reject her or even cause her to feel embarassed, but as a young LDS woman, I can imagine the sense of dread at knowing that soon everyone would know what I had done.

She may also feel that her future has been pulled out from under her, that college and marriage to a young LDS man willing to take her to the temple have now been taken away. It's possible that some opportunities may not now be available to her, but I don't believe that she needs to give up hope yet.

Strangely enough, I agree with Tom in that directly talking to the neice is probably a bad idea. However, there is no such ban against talking to the neice's immediate family. If you can give them advice and suggestions in how to support their daughter/sister in bringing the child to term and then giving it up for adoption or raising it herself, that's all for the best. If there's something you know your neice should be told, you can pass it along to those closer to her than you are, especially if they are soliciting your advice.

If I were to advise the girl, I would tell her that even though her life may look better on the outside if she goes through with the abortion, she will know and the Lord will know. I would tell her I expect that those who truly love her will support her courage to do what is right rather than condemn her for her mistake. I would encourage her to talk to her best girl friend about her dilemma--peers can be very effective at convincing when family (especially parents) are not.

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jeniwren
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Is the girl LDS? I don't recall that being said, but maybe I missed it.

Were it me and I had the relationship to do it, I'd take the girl to dinner with a very dear friend of mine. This friend of mine grew up Mormon and had two abortions, one at 15, one at 17. She has quite a bit to say about it, in a very compassionate, kind way. She's on the board of directors for a crisis pregnancy center now, and having been there, she has a huge well of compassion for girls who find themselves in this situation.

MD, if you want her contact information, I'd be happy to hook you two up. She, I'm sure, would be more than happy to talk with you.

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Brinestone
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MoralDilemma is LDS (she said so a few posts up) and definitely implied that the family is close-knit and religious. She also mentioned the girl talking to her bishop.
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romanylass
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MD, I have nothing to add from an LDS viewpoint but you all remain in my thoughts and prayers. Maybe you could search online from stories of LDS women who were in this situation?
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Minerva
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I don't know much about LDS culutre, but I imagine the response of the LDS community is probably similar to the response of the religious Jewish community.

At the end of junior year, one of my very good friends got pregnant. It was definitely a pretty horrible year for her, and there was some gossip, but almost everyone was very compassionate. She said the best thing that anyone said to her was the rabbi's wife, who came up to her and said, "You must be really frightened."

Anyway, today she is in medical school, married to a nice frum boy, and expecting twins! And the baby was adopted by another family from our shul, and just started first grade. There are happy endings, and it might be good to remind your neice of that now.

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katharina
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The best way I've ever seen this situation handled was when the bishop got all the youth together, explained that "soandso is pregnant, soandso is the father, this is the plan, now y'all know everything, they are still your friends and please don't gossip."

It sucked the mystery out of it, and made everything much more comfortable.

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pH
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Is the father LDS, as well?

And, come to think of it, IS the girl LDS? I mean, just because the family is close-knit and religious doesn't necessarily mean that the daughter follows the same religious beliefs.

-pH

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Brinestone
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Kat, that sounds like such a good idea.

This is unrelated, but I remember a bishop talking to a group of youth in my freshman ward about exactly where the boundaries regarding chastity were. He was very blunt, but I never worried that I was kissing too much or doing something inappropriate because I knew when to stop.

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romanylass
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Is the father pressuring her? I think the "not wanting his father to know" part made me think that.
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Belle
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MD I think you are to be commended for thinking about something not many people do - the emotional scars abortion can leave on the woman. I have volunteered with a pro-life organization and seen first hand the type of pain that a woman can experience even years after the abortion. At the time, many of them thought only of convenience issues - how a baby would "mess up" their lives, and not how the actual decision would affect them later.

I remember distinctly college being an issue with one. The woman said she aborted the baby because she didn't want to not go to college, and instead, the depression resulting from the abortion caused her to drop out of college anyway. She mourns that child to this day, saying that the anniversary of the abortion and the day that would have been the baby's due date are both hell on her, every year.

There is more to an abortion than just the decision to make on the act itself, there are repurcussions that will be felt for the rest of her life.

I will be praying for her, for the family, and for the child.

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Teshi
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quote:
the emotional scars abortion can leave on the woman
Both options are going to leave heavy emotional scarring.
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Samarkand
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Let me say, upfront, that I am Pro-choice. Let me also point out that Pro-choice means exactly what it says. I am not remotely pro-abortion. I have no idea whether I could ever have an abortion, and have thankfully never been confronted with needing to make such a decision.

If I were in the position of having this young lady actively solicit my advice, I would outline the options for her, from carrying to term and raising it herself, to adoption, to abortion. I would tell her that a late-term adoption is a bad idea physically and in my opinion morally, because of how early prreemies are being born now. If she were religious and wanted to solicit advice from a leader in her church, I would encourage her to do so. If she wanted to speak to women who chose abortion and/ or adoption, I would locate these resources for her. And then I would say "the decision is up to you".

I believe wholeheartedly that if this young woman is pressured into carrying this fetus to term without making the decision herself you may lose her far more completely and irrevocably than if she chooses to abort. Having someone else walk into your life and make life-altering decisions for you engenders resentment and mistrust. She would never know whether she made the right decision because it would not have been her choice.

We can provide opinions and options, and we must provide unconditional support and love. But in the end, this is really up to her.

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Teshi
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quote:
She wants to go to prom, but doesn't want to go pregnant. I'm concerned that she doesn't realize that there are other consequences that follow that choice.
I also want to add that I don't think this girl really means that at all, whenever she said it. When we're distressed or frightened we often blurt out things that don't mean what we say. The prom problem for her is no doubt a lens which encapsulates her feelings: fear that this will change her whole life, fear of embarassment, the affect on her image of herself and others' image of her... please do not take such a statement at face value, but look inside at what your niece is trying to say.
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pH
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I agree with Teshi and Samarkand.

There are definitely going to be scars either way. Yes, abortion can cause emotional trauma, but carrying the baby to term could cause issues, as well. Plus, there's always the possibility of post-partum mental issues.

Also, it's great that you guys think that the church would be supportive and accepting, and maybe they would, but that unfortunately isn't always the case.

I think she (and the father, although it sounds as though he's already made his wishes clear) needs to decide on her own what to do, after being made clear of each of the options and the consequences they carry. But I think it's important that the father be involved to some extent either way.

-pH

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beverly
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quote:
I believe wholeheartedly that if this young woman is pressured into carrying this fetus to term without making the decision herself you may lose her far more completely and irrevocably than if she chooses to abort. Having someone else walk into your life and make life-altering decisions for you engenders resentment and mistrust. She would never know whether she made the right decision because it would not have been her choice.

This is an interesting point. There was a point in my life where I was teetering on a really bad decision. Everytime people in my life tried to give me advice or tell me what to do, I just alienated myself from them.

Finally, my parents let go and made it clear that whatever I chose, they supported me. They dropped all opposition and let me choose.

It was really hard for me, but I made the choice they were all hoping I would make. I am grateful every time I think of it. But it was *my* decision. Knowing that gave me strength and confidence, which was crucial to me--especially since both were in such short supply for me at the time.

Though, I *was* a few years older than this girl. She has been forced to make a very adult decision at a still-tender age. How much parental involvement goes into that must be worked out in their specific case according to their needs and unique qualities.

But I think that "neutering" her decision-making ability and making the decision for her (even by pressuring her) could have severe reprocussions. That must be seriously considered. Which is the greater "evil"?

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ketchupqueen
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I have to agree.

My sister-in-law left the Church because her parents forced her to go to church and seminary.

She saw this as complete hypocrisy when compared to the doctrines of free will she kept hearing preached.

And that was a smaller issue than whether or not to have a baby.

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katharina
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It is not either/or. *shakes head* I mean, you can root for a decision without taking away someone's free agency, and rooting for a decision doesn't equal doing so.

This is not going to win me friends or increase my ability to influence people, but leaving the Church because someone wants you to go is just as lame as going because someone is pushing you. Either way, you are reacting to their pressure instead of deciding on your own.

Stopping attending church because the people that go are imperfect is missing the entire point.

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ketchupqueen
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I'm not saying what she did was right.

But there's a lot more to the story, and I understand her feelings at the time.

She wanted to try not going, or going to another church. She was forced into doing something she didn't want to do. She is still angry about that, and when she was old enough, she completely stopped going with a much less open mind than she had started with because of the way she was treated.

It's fine to express your opinion on the subject. It's fine to tell her you're scared for her, and for what this decision can mean (if she talks to you about it at all.) But I think that "butting in" and giving unsolicited advice will feel like scolding to her right now, and that's not going to help.

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pH
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kat: The thing is, since MD is a family member who is basically in a position of authority, saying, "This is what you can do, but I hope you do THIS" could feel the same as making the decision for her, I think.

-pH

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