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Author Topic: Brokeback Mountain - Movie Discussion (Spoilers)
KarlEd
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So now that Brokeback Mountain has opened wider is there anyone here who has actually seen the movie who would like to discuss it (as opposed to discussing the controversy around it)?

I thought the movie was one of the most honest movies I've seen in a long time. It was well written, well acted and superbly directed. It presented the story and let you see and get to know the characters, but didn't tell you how to feel about them or beat you over the head with a "message". Ang Lee's direction is very straight-forward, but full of subtleties. The feelings he conveys with the element of the shirts is one of the most touching things I've seen in film. It made me weep in the theater, and even now I can't think of it in terms of specifics without choking up a little.

I'm open to discussing anything about the movie, but one thing I'd be interested in discussing specifically follows: <<<SPOILER WARNING>>>
How did you take the scene where Ennis learns the "details" of Jack's death on the phone. We hear one version of events but "see" another version. I think the way that was filmed was ambiguous enough to invite a couple of different interpretations about what actually happened and who knew the truth. Did anyone else feel that way? What was your take on it?

[ January 18, 2006, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]

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Synesthesia
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It was a very well-made movie. Extremely heartbreaking and depressing and the ambiguous part with

spoiler

Jack's death was well done too.

I ached for Ennis and

spoiler

Wished he had done what Jack had begged him to do...

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pH
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I thought it was a very beautiful, very sad movie.

But someone pulled the fire alarm in the theatre in the "I wish I could quit you" scene, and we had to go wait outside for half an hour before they let us back in to see the rest. [Frown] It kind of broke up the movie for me. I was really getting into it.

-pH

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Ray Bingham
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I'm curious when folks say it was honest, what they mean. Exactly what was honest about it?

Sure it's slick and sympathetic, and emotionally manipulative and sad... but it's a movie.

--Ray

P.S. Personally I have a problem with any portrayal of marital infidelity regardless of one's personal inclinations.

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erosomniac
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I thought the film was mediocre at best.

Heath & Jake both did a superb job, but the movie was too ambitious. I think they tried to cover too many bases when it came to showing how the relationship affected Jack and Ennis' lives. I was being tossed around to different scenes and every other character in the movie was extremely one dimensional. Ennis' wife is just a good 'ol southern gal pal who flips out that her husband's gay. Jack's wife is a workaholic. His daughter misses him - we get it. Give us something else! Give me a reason to actually give a damn about these characters!

The pacing was terrible. There was an hour in the middle of the movie where I felt every minute crawl by because nothing of significance happened - it was mostly just tangential scenes that had no major contribution to the story. For example: scene with Jack's in-laws eating Thanksgiving dinner at his house. What a waste of 5 minutes of film that could've been used productively somehow. It was in this hour period that I saw several people in the theatre fall asleep - during a matinee.

There were aspects of the movie I enjoyed. Oddly (given my gripes about the pacing in the middle), I thoroughly enjoyed the first third or so of the movie, where we see Jack and Ennis' relationship with each other develop into a friendship and make the awkward, sudden transition to something else. I also appreciated the inequity in the relationship: Jack refused to stop dreaming whereas Ennis had killed and buried his dreams early on. I agree with Karl about the element of the shirts (and jackets) - very moving.

quote:
How did you take the scene where Ennis learns the "details" of Jack's death on the phone. We hear one version of events but "see" another version. I think the way that was filmed was ambiguous enough to invite a couple of different interpretations about what actually happened and who knew the truth. Did anyone else feel that way? What was your take on it?
I thought they made it pretty clear that the "reported" version was false, and that Jack was beaten to death for being gay. When Ennis meets Jack's parents, it's painfully obvious they knew about Jack's lifestyle, and that Ennis was, at some point, his lover. The alternating reactions from his parents demonstrate how they felt about it - his father with hostility, his mother with love and acceptance. They also mention that Jack had tried to execute his Jack'n'boy'ranch idea with people other than Ennis - it seems to me that Jack was careless in avoiding suspicion and paid for it, exactly as Ennis predicted he would if they continued that route.
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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by Ray Bingham:
I'm curious when folks say it was honest, what they mean. Exactly what was honest about it?

Sure it's slick and sympathetic, and emotionally manipulative and sad... but it's a movie.

Have you seen it?

I say it's honest precisely because it's not emotionally manipulative (in the negative sense you seem to be stating here). I also don't think it's in any way "slick". The movie presents the two characters with all their flaws. It doesn't make either of them out to be heros. In fact, I couldn't help but think how terrible it was that they made the choices they did. It was a tragic story, but the tragedy, at least in Ennis's case, came because of his choices. It didn't glorify their infidelity, though it clearly portrayed it for what it was.

erosomniac:
quote:
Ennis' wife is just a good 'ol southern gal pal who flips out that her husband's gay.
I didn't get this at all. She was crushed when she first learned about it, but she lived with the secret for years. In fact, there is strong indication that their marriage ended not because of her husband's sexuality or infidelity, but because of his inability to provide for his family. She doesn't "flip out" at all, until well after they are divorced and despite trying to maintain an amicable relationship she can no longer stand the idea that Ennis thinks he's fooled her. I don't think this is extremely one-dimensional. What more would you have wanted from her as a supporting character?

To me, the Thanksgiving scene gave additional insite into Jack's character. The "middle" scenes were important to establish that the two characters had real lives outside of the times they spent with one another. It also explains in part why Jack finds it so easy to just drop that life if only Ennis would do the same. The irony comes because Jack has so much more to give up but would do so in an instant, and Ennis has nothing but his own fear and pride yet can't give them up for a chance at happiness.

I didn't think the scene where Ennis is being told of Jack's death was that clear. The words we hear talk of the death by tire accident, though I thought I could detect in Jack's wife's voice hints that she didn't believe the story even as she was passing it on. We see a flashback of Jack getting beaten to death almost positioned as if it could be Ennis who is imagining that death, but he is never told that version. Why do you think it was "pretty clear" that the flashback version is the truth?

quote:
They also mention that Jack had tried to execute his Jack'n'boy'ranch idea with people other than Ennis - it seems to me that Jack was careless in avoiding suspicion and paid for it, exactly as Ennis predicted he would if they continued that route.
Well, Jack's parents only mention one other person, and they mention that Jack talked frequently of Ennis and those plans up until the last time Jack and Ennis were together when Ennis make it clear there was no real future between them other than quarterly secret trists. It was then that Jack started talking to his parents about this new guy. I think it's important to note that because it says a lot about Jack's character one way or the other.
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Topher
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To Karl - the book will explain more what was really going on. She knew that she was telling a lie, it was her "party line." So used to saying it for the month or so before the postcard got returned. She couldn't very well admit to having a gay husband. And unlike Alma, she didn't know what was going on until after the fact. How Ennis really knew what happened - it was his fear, for himself and for Jack.

And the film didn't really swing one way or another, necessarily. It's a love story - all the characters are flawed, but that makes them human. There are times when you don't want to like Jack and Ennis, but you are compelled to regardless.

Actually, Alma was a Midwest girl (not a gal pal) who was both brave and niave. She kept in her internal sorrow...and kept wanting to believe that Ennis wasn't really...couldn't be...gay. When it cemented that he was, combined with their financial troubles, Ennis's own nature and her dislike of some his sexual positions...she wanted a divorce. Nothing sudden about it, more like a pot slowly brought a bitter boil.

Jack and Ennis were also semi-typical of how gay relationships went at the time. Young men got married, worked, had a family in rural areas. There wasn't a Castro, West Hollywood or anything really for "gay community"...this was before Stonewall (for part of it). "If you can't fix it, you have to stand it." This was a sad semi-truth in their lives.

The movie was great. The modern Midnight Cowboy? Who knows.

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Synesthesia
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I was in agony in the parts when Ennis was crying. He really did a good job acting just how much it hurts to be this powerful man feeling so powerless.
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TL
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I thought it was brilliant and heartbreaking. Heath Ledger was fantastic. And Anne Hatheway was fantastic. Those were the two performances that really stood out, for me.

Those poor gay cowboys. If only they could have lived in a society that didn't shun them.

I didn't cry, but the movie is haunting me.

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erosomniac
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quote:
I didn't get this at all. She was crushed when she first learned about it, but she lived with the secret for years. In fact, there is strong indication that their marriage ended not because of her husband's sexuality or infidelity, but because of his inability to provide for his family. She doesn't "flip out" at all, until well after they are divorced and despite trying to maintain an amicable relationship she can no longer stand the idea that Ennis thinks he's fooled her. I don't think this is extremely one-dimensional. What more would you have wanted from her as a supporting character?
I only really saw one hint that she leaves because of his inability to provide - the coitus interruptus scene. The rest of the time, we see her pining over postcards and giving Ennis long, sad looks when he doesn't see. A big, big problem I have with their entire relationship is that it's never clear why they got married in the first place. Are they long time sweethearts? Were they deeply in love when they got married? How does she feel about her children?

Her reaction to discovering Ennis' infidelity (and homosexuality) doesn't really answer any of these questions. Why did she stay as long as she did? Because she still loved Ennis, despite the aforementioned problems? I didn't get any hints in that regard. For the kids? I never once got the feeling she especially cared about her children - not the way Ennis did. Because she didn't want to quit? That, to me, would be the weakest of all possible reasons - and makes her seem not only naive, but stupid as well.

quote:
To me, the Thanksgiving scene gave additional insite into Jack's character. The "middle" scenes were important to establish that the two characters had real lives outside of the times they spent with one another. It also explains in part why Jack finds it so easy to just drop that life if only Ennis would do the same. The irony comes because Jack has so much more to give up but would do so in an instant, and Ennis has nothing but his own fear and pride yet can't give them up for a chance at happiness.
One or two scenes - or even a montage - would have worked much better at establishing that the characters had outside lives.

I disagree that Jack had more to lose. Ennis had children (did Jack have children? If he did, I don't remember, which is an indication of how well they brought it up in the movie), which he obviously loved very much (this is one point they're pretty darn clear on) - and that, to me, seems far, far more important than a job and a wife.

quote:
I didn't think the scene where Ennis is being told of Jack's death was that clear. The words we hear talk of the death by tire accident, though I thought I could detect in Jack's wife's voice hints that she didn't believe the story even as she was passing it on. We see a flashback of Jack getting beaten to death almost positioned as if it could be Ennis who is imagining that death, but he is never told that version. Why do you think it was "pretty clear" that the flashback version is the truth?
I viewed the flashback as Ennis imagining what had happened, and concluded it was obvious truth given the evidence I listed in my first reply. Throughout the latter half of the movie, we see Jack being very careless about concealing his sexuality - hitting on another man at the bar, going to Mexico for sexual escapades, pursuing a relationship and possible partnership with another man - and this, combined with the fact that his parents and wife obviously know and don't seem terribly surprised (or, in the case of father and wife, sad) at his death, leads me to believe that the tire story doesn't hold water.

Tire accident, in which a part of the tire flies off and slams into Jack's face, rendering him unconscious and causing him to bleed to death, or deliberate murder, caused by his obvious homosexuality in a community with zero tolerance? Seems to me the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the latter - the first reeks of thrown-together half-truth so no one has to be embarassed.

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Telperion the Silver
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I got to see the movie with my brother and my cousins on Christmas day. A very moving day indeed…with this movie and us dealing with the loss of my Mom this past July and the condition of my boy.

Brokeback Mountain isn’t really just about being gay or broken relationships and shattered lives… it’s about regret and loss…which all the events in the movie are apart of. Eerily I’m in a similar situation with my pseudo-boyfriend. He got divorced from his wife a couple years ago, has two small daughters, and it closeted with his family and friends. He’s out with my group of friends, but he sees no reason to come out to anyone on his side, and as a result I’ve never met his daughters or his friends/family. And we only get to hang out once a month or so.

Also considering the rest of my own history of unrequited and lost love the movie hit very close to home.
The music and scenes of vast farmland added to the feeling of regret and loss. On first viewing I took the scene of Jack's death by attack as the real one. But I guess you can take it either way. I really loved the way Jack's parents brought Ennis in. My Dad was raised by old farm people... and his folks were old enough to be his grandparents when they had him. We still have the old farm from the Civil War times down in Ohio. The way they reacted in that stoic way reminded me of that.

And when Ennis found the shirt... damn... I was sobbing.
One of the best shows I’ve ever seen.

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KarlEd
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quote:
I disagree that Jack had more to lose. Ennis had children (did Jack have children? If he did, I don't remember, which is an indication of how well they brought it up in the movie), which he obviously loved very much (this is one point they're pretty darn clear on) - and that, to me, seems far, far more important than a job and a wife.
Is it an indication of how well it was brought up in the movie? Or how well you were paying attention? [Wink] It's pretty clearly established that Jack had a son. Besides the birth scene, the whole Thanksgiving scene was a fight over whether Jack or his father-in-law had the right to discipline his kid in his own home.

As far as who had more to lose, I was referring to the final scene between Jack and Ennis, where Ennis basically tells Jack there is no way they will ever be together. At this point, Ennis could not lose his daughters or wife any more than he already had. He had also proved to himself (with the waitress) that he was unable to build a meaningful relationship with anyone else, and he was living in a dump, alone. Jack, on the other hand, had a good job and at least the outward semblance of a family right up until he was killed.

I agree that the tire story doesn't hold water and have similar reasoning to what you posted. However, I'm not sure you can say his wife was not sad at his death. We only see her weeks (or maybe months) after his death. She's had all that time to process the death, and is also probably dealing with her own recent knowledge of Jack's double-life (news that came in about the most horrific way possible, given the implications if she indeed doesn't believe the tire story herself.) I still read the scene as ambiguous. We have to guess what really happened. Sure we have enough info to assume Jack was beaten to death for being gay, but there are other questions. How much did Lureen know? If the tire story was a lie, whose lie was it? It's also ambiguous what Ennis believes, since he certainly isn't told anything other than the tire story.

Topher wrote:
quote:
the book will explain more what was really going on.
I'll probably read the story sometime, but I don't like pulling the book into a discussion of the film because I strongly believe a film should stand on it's own. If it needs the book to make sense, it's a failing of the film. That said, though, I don't think the film fails. I'm OK with the ambiguity in the film because it really doesn't change anything that follows whichever interpretation you believe or whatever parts of the story you try to extrapolate from what is shown. I think it's more likely that Ang Lee realized that and rather than spell it out and make the story more about a gay bashing, he left the ambiguity in to focus more on Ennis's reaction through the rest of the film to the death itself rather than the cause. So I still think there's a lot of room for interpretation in the film but I don't think it detracts from the story as a whole.
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KarlEd
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quote:
And when Ennis found the shirt... damn... I was sobbing.
One of the best shows I’ve ever seen.

What made me sob was the final scene where we see Ennis has kept the shirts, only now, he has put his on the outside embracing and protecting Jack's rather than the other way around as he found them. It was such a sweet, private gesture made all the more poignant because of the futility of it. My heart really ached for Ennis then.

quote:
Brokeback Mountain isn’t really just about being gay or broken relationships and shattered lives… it’s about regret and loss…which all the events in the movie are apart of.
I agree. It's also about fear of acceptance by society, and the inability to accept oneself.

Sometimes (thankfully rarely) I see -- in certain looks Chris and I get when in public -- a disgust or anger that makes me wonder if it could drive the bearer to commit a terrible act toward us if he (or she) had the chance. But I wouldn't give up what I have with Chris out of fear of reprisal. I might think differently if I lived in an area where reprisal was more of a certainty, so I can't be too hard on Ennis either.

Oh, Topher also wrote:
quote:
Jack and Ennis were also semi-typical of how gay relationships went at the time. Young men got married, worked, had a family in rural areas. There wasn't a Castro, West Hollywood or anything really for "gay community"...this was before Stonewall (for part of it). "If you can't fix it, you have to stand it." This was a sad semi-truth in their lives.
Actually, there was a "Castro" etc. at that time. (We're talking mid-60s through mid-80s for Jack and Ennis, after all). And gay life didn't begin with Stonewall. There were many places and situations where gays lived in varying degrees of openness decades before the Stonewall riots. You might want to rent the documentary Before Stonewall if you're interested in that. But yes, it is only very recently that gays have been able to find pockets of tolerance outside large cities, so whatever refuge existed for 60s-80s gays it wouldn't have been much help to Jack and Ennis. [Frown]
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erosomniac
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quote:
Is it an indication of how well it was brought up in the movie? Or how well you were paying attention? It's pretty clearly established that Jack had a son. Besides the birth scene, the whole Thanksgiving scene was a fight over whether Jack or his father-in-law had the right to discipline his kid in his own home.
Oh yeah. See, we never hear from the son, so as a character he never mattered to me - much like the daughter Ennis never talks to. If a character is ignorable, I think it shouldn't exist - and the valuable screen time should have been given to something, ANYTHING else. And then the Thanksgiving scene would have been even MORE useless, freeing up even more screen time!

quote:
had a good job and at least the outward semblance of a family right up until he was killed.
I still maintain that a good job and the outward semblance of a family are worthless compared to the relationship Ennis had with Junior - but that's probably something outside the bounds of this thread [Smile] .

quote:
I agree that the tire story doesn't hold water and have similar reasoning to what you posted. However, I'm not sure you can say his wife was not sad at his death. We only see her weeks (or maybe months) after his death. She's had all that time to process the death, and is also probably dealing with her own recent knowledge of Jack's double-life (news that came in about the most horrific way possible, given the implications if she indeed doesn't believe the tire story herself.) I still read the scene as ambiguous. We have to guess what really happened. Sure we have enough info to assume Jack was beaten to death for being gay, but there are other questions. How much did Lureen know? If the tire story was a lie, whose lie was it? It's also ambiguous what Ennis believes, since he certainly isn't told anything other than the tire story.
Ultimately, you're right, and there isn't anything concrete to say which theory is true at the end of the movie. I just think the way the scenes were displayed and the continuous references throughout the movie to this possibility occuring point too strongly to the Murder Theory conclusion than the Tire Story. It's definitely possible that that's exactly what the directors intended - and they succeeded admirably in my case.
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KarlEd
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quote:
I still maintain that a good job and the outward semblance of a family are worthless compared to the relationship Ennis had with Junior - but that's probably something outside the bounds of this thread
You confuse me. Ennis had two daughters, one of which comes to visit him in the end. (Is this the one you mean by "Junior"?). Either way, in what way would his relationship with his daughters be "given up" if he pursued a life with Jack? If anything it would make him a happier person and would probably in turn make him a better father.
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erosomniac
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quote:
You confuse me. Ennis had two daughters, one of which comes to visit him in the end. (Is this the one you mean by "Junior"?). Either way, in what way would his relationship with his daughters be "given up" if he pursued a life with Jack? If anything it would make him a happier person and would probably in turn make him a better father.
He had two daughters, one of which never really has a role in the movie, the other of whom is named Alma Junior - whom he simply calls Junior by the end of the movie.

We do not know how much his daughters know about their father's sexuality through the movie. Given the adverse reactions of almost every other character in the movie to the idea of Jack or Ennis being gay, I'm assuming his daughters would have a similar reaction.

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Belle
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quote:

P.S. Personally I have a problem with any portrayal of marital infidelity regardless of one's personal inclinations.

Me too. If I know ahead of time a movie has that type of storyline I won't watch it. I was on the fence as to whether to rent Brokeback Mountain when it came out, but now I know I won't.
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erosomniac
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Do you two have a problem with marital infidelity being portrayed at all, or marital infidelity being portrayed in a positive way?

If the latter, you're still safe to watch Brokeback Mountain, since the infidelity is in no way presented as a good thing.

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Belle
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I didn't enjoy Fatal Attraction, a movie in which infidelity is certainly portrayed as a negative.

But tell me more erosomniac. I mean, I haven't read the book or seen the movie yet, so I just got the impression from threads here and reading about the movie elsewhere that these characters are portrayed as being in love and that it's generally portrayed as a bad thing that they can't live together and express their love for one another. So it seems to me that part of the story is saying, "hey, they couldn't be together forever but at least they had these few times together" and to me that's saying it's okay for them to be together sexually because they're in love. I would have much more sympathy for the characters in the story had they not married and had children. To me, the most sympathetic characters are the wives, who were obviously betrayed. Now, if I'm wrong, then tell. I don't mind being spoiled (or I wouldn't have opened this thread)

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pH
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I think the movie had more to do with the pain caused by the relationship than anything else. And it's not as though these men were in love with their wives and then decided to cheat, so far as I saw it. It looked to me as though they had no choice but to marry women because anything else was unacceptable, and I thought the movie showed a lot of how their choices impacted them negatively.

-pH

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erosomniac
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quote:
So it seems to me that part of the story is saying, "hey, they couldn't be together forever but at least they had these few times together" and to me that's saying it's okay for them to be together sexually because they're in love. I would have much more sympathy for the characters in the story had they not married and had children.
Ignoring the fact that the principle characters in this romance are both men (for just a second - let's not go into the whole "this love story is the same as any other tragic love story" bit again!), there's nothing in this story to suggest that the romance between Ennis and Jack is ever a good thing. The movie is just a steady progression of tragedy, for everyone involved. In their own minds, perhaps, they may feel they're justified in continuing their secret rendezvous(es?), but everyone (including themselves) has their lives battered by their infidelity.

I still think it's possible to watch and appreciate this movie without condoning the infidelity.

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erosomniac
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quote:
And it's not as though these men were in love with their wives and then decided to cheat, so far as I saw it. It looked to me as though they had no choice but to marry women because anything else was unacceptable, and I thought the movie showed a lot of how their choices impacted them negatively.
I disagree. Ennis was already engaged before he met Jack, and Jack knew this. We're also led to believe that this is the first homosexual experience for either man. So in Ennis' case, at least, there was a definite decision to cheat. In Jack's case, there was a definite decision to pursue someone who should have been off limits (for monogomy, not sexuality reasons)
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Belle
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quote:
And it's not as though these men were in love with their wives and then decided to cheat, so far as I saw it. It looked to me as though they had no choice but to marry women because anything else was unacceptable, and I thought the movie showed a lot of how their choices impacted them negatively.

But see even if they didn't love them, even if they did feel forced to marry them they still stood up and said vows and promised fidelity and didn't live up to it.

Maybe I'm over-reactionary to marital infidelity, but I can not sympathize with a character that breaks a marriage vow, no matter the reason. It's an issue that's of prime importance to me. So I'm wondering why I'd watch this movie - if I can't sympathize with the main characters am I even going to get anything out of it?

quote:
The movie is just a steady progression of tragedy, for everyone involved. In their own minds, perhaps, they may feel they're justified in continuing their secret rendezvous(es?), but everyone (including themselves) has their lives battered by their infidelity.

I'm glad to hear that because it echoes my own experience, that adultery, whatever the reason, ruins a lot of the lives affected by it.
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KarlEd
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I agree. (edit: with PH above). I don't think the movie excused their infidelity in the least. If anything like a "message" could be taken from the movie (and I don't think it tries to send any "messages") it would be that gay men often feel they have no recourse but to "fit in or die", and that leads to some terrible choices. I think Alma was a very sympathetic character. She ultimately chose a better life for her and her kids which didn't include marriage to Ennis, but one can hardly blame her for any of her actions in the movie.

The infidelity is there, but it never seemed to be portrayed in a way that excused it or glorified it. If anything, each liaison seemed to underscore the tragedy of their not being comfortable enough to nurture their love instead of letting it become a weakness they submit to on occasion.

In reality, this scenario is played out across the country in more lives than any wives would like to contemplate. I could have fallen into the same trap if I'd listened to certain of my spiritual leaders. I very glad that I was able to accept myself and not drag a wife through the hell that many of them must go through. I think society is changing to the point that Brokeback Mountain would be a very different story if it were set in modern times anywhere outside of very rural USA. I, myself, couldn't find much sympathy for Jack or Ennis if they lived almost anywhere in contemporary MD or PA or in a city of any decent size. But that's because I believe at heart both Ennis and Jack had real reason to fear their own sexuality. I'm not sure that's the case today outside of very rural parts of America. (At least I hope that's the case.)

erosomniac wrote:
quote:
We do not know how much his daughters know about their father's sexuality through the movie. Given the adverse reactions of almost every other character in the movie to the idea of Jack or Ennis being gay, I'm assuming his daughters would have a similar reaction.
Perhaps, but that would be their problem. What is the value of love only given under the guise of a lie? How sad for Ennis that he felt the only kind of love he could have was a lie and that he accepted that. How sad that he preferred the illusion of acceptance to such a degree that he robbed everyone else of the opportunity to accept him for his true self. Personally, I'd rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I am not. (Of course, ideally I'd rather be loved for what I am, but I'd never choose the illusion of love over the chance to see if it was real.)

So I still feel like he had nothing to lose. If he lost his daughter by revealing his true self, can you really say he had that love to begin with?

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erosomniac
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quote:
If he lost his daughter by revealing his true self, can you really say he had that love to begin with?
I don't think it matters whether he actually had the love or not - I think what matters is whether he felt like he did or not. And I think Ennis was perfectly okay with his daughter loving his straight image.
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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
I disagree. Ennis was already engaged before he met Jack, and Jack knew this. We're also led to believe that this is the first homosexual experience for either man. So in Ennis' case, at least, there was a definite decision to cheat. In Jack's case, there was a definite decision to pursue someone who should have been off limits (for monogomy, not sexuality reasons)

I don't think we're lead to believe that this was the first experience for Jack. In fact, there were cues from the very beginning (to me at least) that Jack was interested in Ennis sexually and I read several small bits as furtive attempts to feel him out. (But maybe you had to have your gadar on [Big Grin] ) But seriously, I thought that underscored the brilliant way in which Jake Gyllenhal portrayed the character.

Also, the simple fact of being engaged does not make it untrue that Alma was much more than a beard for Ennis. I suspect that Ennis knew deep down that his experience with Jack was something powerful, well beyond a "one time thing", but since he saw no future in it, he accepted the old myth that getting married would curb his urges. He was certainly very happy to get the postcard from Jack the first time Jack made contact after Ennis got married. I'm certainly not saying that a lack of love made it OK to be unfaithful. It doesn't. But I think the fatal choice was in getting married in the first place. Thinking either of them could live both lives was just compounding the first terrible choice.

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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
If he lost his daughter by revealing his true self, can you really say he had that love to begin with?
I don't think it matters whether he actually had the love or not - I think what matters is whether he felt like he did or not. And I think Ennis was perfectly okay with his daughter loving his straight image.
I don't, and I think that the fact he couldn't bring himself to go to her wedding (as far as the movie tells us) is indication of that dissatisfaction. I think Ennis's whole tragedy is that he couldn't love himself because of what he was and couldn't appreciate the love he got from others. The only time he seemed happy without an undercurrent of pain was when he was with Jack, the only person who knew him.
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erosomniac
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quote:
Also, the simple fact of being engaged does not make it untrue that Alma was much more than a beard for Ennis.
Whether she was or wasn't doesn't matter.

quote:
Jack was interested in Ennis sexually and I read several small bits as furtive attempts to feel him out.
Maybe gaydar needed to play a part here, because I definitely did NOT pick up on any feeling out on Jack's part: their discourse seemed to me to be standard getting-to-know-you-let's-be-friends stuff between two guys who know they're going to be stuck together for a long time. Honestly, if I hadn't known beforehand that the movie was going to be about gay cowboys, the "cold-night-come-into-the-pup-tent" scene would have taken me COMPLETELY by surprise.
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erosomniac
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quote:
I don't, and I think that the fact he couldn't bring himself to go to her wedding (as far as the movie tells us)
Wait...the movie explicitly tells us Ennis has every intention of going.
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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
I don't, and I think that the fact he couldn't bring himself to go to her wedding (as far as the movie tells us)
Wait...the movie explicitly tells us Ennis has every intention of going.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I could have sworn he tells her that he's got this job, etc. Now that you mention it, maybe he changes his mind (I honestly can't remember because it didn't seem that important at the time). But even if I'm wrong about his ultimate decision, his first inclination was to not go and I read that as "because if you only knew the real me, you wouldn't want me around."
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erosomniac
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quote:
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I could have sworn he tells her that he's got this job, etc. Now that you mention it, maybe he changes his mind (I honestly can't remember because it didn't seem that important at the time). But even if I'm wrong about his ultimate decision, his first inclination was to not go and I read that as "because if you only knew the real me, you wouldn't want me around."
He does change his mind, and she leaves happy. The line was something like "A man should be there for his daughter's wedding, and if they don't like it, they can find themselves another cowboy."

I see what you're saying about Ennis' character though, and now that I think about it some more, I'm inclined to agree with your analysis. Thus, I retract my opinion that Ennis had more to lose than Jack did. [Big Grin]

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Fyfe
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I was definitely getting an interested-in-Ennis vibe from Jack very early on. I don't think that the movie led us to believe it was Jack's first homosexual encounter, or his third, or his seventieth. It just wasn't addressed at all. But Jack did seem to me to be tossing out feelers.

I was impressed by the movie, btw, but I'm not sure I would see it again. I'm not the biggest fan of tragedy, although with a movie as well-made as this one, I'm glad I saw it.

Jen

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Amanecer
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I did not enjoy this movie. I felt that the movie was much too long and tried to cover far too much of their lives. Like ersomniac, I enjoyed the first third of the movie. It told an interesting story about two detailed characters. I felt that the rest of the film did not. It tried to cover a 20+ year time frame in an hour and a half. I got very bored of seeing five minutes of a life and then moving forward in the future another five years. The scenes kept introducing so many new characters that were not very important. I felt like at least 30 minutes of the movie could have been cut without losing much. And there were at least 2 times when I thought the movie was going to end, and then it kept going. I think the idea had promise but I was not impressed with the way it was carried out.
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pH
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I also got the impression that Jack was interested in Ennis from the beginning. He just seemed a little too...eager, maybe?

-pH

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KarlEd
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quote:
He does change his mind, and she leaves happy. The line was something like "A man should be there for his daughter's wedding, and if they don't like it, they can find themselves another cowboy."
Yes, now I'm sure you're right about him changing his mind. [Smile]
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Rico
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quote:
Originally posted by pH:
I also got the impression that Jack was interested in Ennis from the beginning. He just seemed a little too...eager, maybe?

-pH

Yeah! I noticed the exact same thing!

Overall I just felt the movie was way too long and a little disjointed. Things just didn't seem to flow together. It's hard to explain but it's almost like the editor just cut and pasted a whole bunch of scenes together after the beginning and called it a movie.

The beginning was ok, the rest of the movie after that I think suffered from what I'm talking about.

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andi330
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I found Brokeback Mountain to be one of the best movies that I've seen in a long time. I believe it to be an honest portrayal of what life has been like for many homosexuals for many years.

The argument that we should never see infidelity in film/theatre/books is, in my opinion, unrealistic. Art, in all of it's forms should imitate life, and, like it or not, infidelity exists throughout the world and society. To never have a book or film that includes infidelity would be reflecting a world view which was idillic at best, a lie at worst.

True art should reach out, and force the person viewing it to ask questions of themselves. Hard questions, about their personal beliefs and the world at large. It's something that the movie industry has only recently begun to embrace, which is, I believe, why more and more independant films are the ones bringing people to the movie theatres.

Edit: Before I get questions asking me, I do not agree with infidelity, I simply believe that to deny its existance by leaving it out of our art forms is to lie about the current state of our society.

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andi330
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quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
<<<SPOILER WARNING>>>
How did you take the scene where Ennis learns the "details" of Jack's death on the phone. We hear one version of events but "see" another version. I think the way that was filmed was ambiguous enough to invite a couple of different interpretations about what actually happened and who knew the truth. Did anyone else feel that way? What was your take on it?

Karl - I don't know if you've read the short story or not, but in the story, Ennis wonders if the story about the tire blowing up is a lie when Lureen tells him. He has a mental image of Jack being beaten to death but no way to confirm it. It isn't until Ennis goes to visit Jack's parents and hears that Jack was planning to leave his wife and move back home with the man from the neighboring ranch that Ennis becomes convinced that Jack was murdered because someone found out.
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erosomniac
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quote:
The argument that we should never see infidelity in film/theatre/books is, in my opinion, unrealistic. Art, in all of it's forms should imitate life, and, like it or not, infidelity exists throughout the world and society. To never have a book or film that includes infidelity would be reflecting a world view which was idillic at best, a lie at worst.

I don't think this is what Belle meant when she said she doesn't watch movies that portray infidelity. I think her problem with many movies that do so is that they portray them in a positive or sympathetic light, and because she cannot relate to or agree with that viewpoint, she chooses not to waste her time.

(Belle, please correct me if I'm misinterpreting)

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Belle
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quote:
Edit: Before I get questions asking me, I do not agree with infidelity, I simply believe that to deny its existance by leaving it out of our art forms is to lie about the current state of our society.
I never said anything about it being censored or not in art forms. People can write about and make movies about infidelity all they want to, I just don't have to spend my money on it. Why would I? If I know I can't sympathize with that character or identify with them then I don't want to waste my time on it. Or, in other words, exactly what erosomniac wrote above. [Smile]

I don't want to see infidelity portrayed in a positive light and if it's portrayed in a negative light, then I'm still not particularly enthused about it because that means the story will be tragic and sad and I'm not usually into extremely tragic and sad stories - it's just not what I want in my entertainment.

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andi330
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My point (though I may not have made it as clear as I would have liked) is that for anyone to deny themselves an artistic experience, simply because there is or may be something in it that is offensive or hard to identify with, can be to deny oneself an opportunity for growth.

A good example of this is Brokeback Mountain. This is (in my opinion) not simply a story of two men who unexpectedly developed a life-long love for each other. It is the story of how the marginalization and vilification of homosexuality has affected millions of people's lives in a negative way.

The Author of the original short story said that she was surprised that she got a lot of mail from rural America, positive mail thanking her for the story. She said many people wrote her to say things like, "now I understand what my son/daughter/friend/neighbor has gone through." It's an incredibly positive impact and one to which the movie does justice.

That said, if you don't want to see the move, don't. I certainly can't force you or anyone else to, and I wouldn't try.

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katharina
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I saw the movie.

I thought it was beautiful. I can tell the script was written by Larry McMurtry - it has his stamp all over it. I had the following thoughts:

1. Ennis DelMar is a masterpiece. I thought the movie did a very good job of portraying him, and Heath Ledger did a great job of acting. He is a sympathetic character - he's so clearly gobsmacked by the life he has been handed, and he follows his emotions. It doesn't seem like he is very self aware until much later in the movie. I love him for going to his daughter's wedding at the end. I think marrying Alma was wrong, and I personally think that marrying Alma would have been wrong even if he had never met Jack.

The question he asked Junior when she announced she was getting married tugged at my heart: "Does he love you?" When she answered yes, then he approved. I think he knew by then that he never loved Alma. I'm boggled that someone would get married to someone that they weren't sure that they loved, but I guess it happens often - not just for the reasons in this movie.

The moment I least understand is when he wrote the "You bet." postcard to Jack. That was the moment he decided to commit adultery and hurt the family he had willingly taken on, and since I like Ennis, I don't understand how he could do that. He loved his daughter enough to risk his job to go to his wedding later - was that evidence of a character arc? Because he didn't love his family enough before to resist starting something that would hurt them so badly.

2. I don't like Jack. I don't think Brokeback was Jack's first experience, and...I think he should have let Ennis know some of the consequences to it. I don't think that it just happened - I think Jack decided to hesitantly pursue Ennis. He had to know that what might happen wouldn't be minor - I think if he really cared about or respected Ennis then, he would have given him a full disclosure. To me, it seems like he crossed the fine line between loving someone and using them. I guess after it started, Ennis warned him so they both knew that it would theoretically end with the summer, but I wish that the decision for it to happen had occurred before anything actually started. I don't like how Jack treated Ennis. I think to me it doesn't matter that they were both adults - it's not okay to pursue a married man, even if he's all for it.

I talked to someone about the movie, and they thought that Jack was a little immature, always. He pursued Ennis, but in the hesitant, half-crazy with hope way that a fifteen-year-old would.

3. Junior knew. I think in the conversation with her father's date, when the date tremblingly asked if Junior thought they might end up together, Junior realized that her dad never would. If she didn't know details, I think she did guess that for some reason, her father would always be lonely. I think that's why she tried to move in with him - not for her sake, but for his. I really liked her for that.

4. Holy cow, I have met Lurleen. Very good portrayal of a rich Texas society wife.

5. I don't think there's a message. I definitely don't think that the message is "society is bad." I think it does a disservice to the story it is representing to say it is a cautionary tale. It is a human story - I think it could mean many things.

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Amanecer
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That conversation also gave me the impression that Junior knew. I was saddened that Ennis didn't let Junior live with him. It seemed like such a solution to Ennis' misery that it irritated me when he refused to take it.
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andi330
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Gotta say, while I don't think either Annie Proulx or Larry McMurtry wrote the story intending for it to be a message, that there is one there. Nor do I think that the message is that "society is bad." I do think that the movie acurately portrays a consequence of marginalizing a large portion of society simply because we don't understand homosexuality.

The movie also lends a bit more hesitancy to Ennis' character than the original short story does in terms of the first encounter. Jack was the instigator, but Ennis showed none of the hesitance in the story that he had in the movie.

In terms of why Ennis didn't let Junior live with him, I suspect it's because by that time, Alma had pretty much told Ennis that she knew his big secret. If she wanted to keep custody all she'd have to do was tell a judge what she knew about Ennis' sex life.

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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
I'm boggled that someone would get married to someone that they weren't sure that they loved, but I guess it happens often - not just for the reasons in this movie.

I'm not so boggled, really. I don't think most people know what love is and those who do probably learned it after they got married. I'm probably more cynical than many, but I believe it's less than an overwhelming majority who, when they find out what love is, also discover that they love the one they chose.

It seems very likely to me that Ennis loved Alma as far as he understood love. I don't think the story focused on their relationship enough to know to what degree he felt love for her and how the arc of that went. He was at least to some degree bi-sexual, which is another reason he may have thought the escapades with Jack could be confined to that one summer on the mountain. It's also possible that love was not a primary consideration when deciding marriage, for Ennis. I don't think he'd be alone in that, even today.

quote:
The moment I least understand is when he wrote the "You bet." postcard to Jack. That was the moment he decided to commit adultery and hurt the family he had willingly taken on, and since I like Ennis, I don't understand how he could do that.
I disagree that conciously he decided to commit adultery at that moment. I know from personal experience that it's very difficult for gay men to separate feelings of brotherhood, camaraderie, and friendship with other men from sexual feelings about them. Loneliness only compounds that confusion. It wasn't until I was much more comfortable with my own sexuality that I was able to adequately separate them, and I don't think it's possible to completely separate them in all cases.

Ennis came across as a fundamentally lonely person. There's no indication, really, that he had any other male friends (or female, for that matter). It's entirely possible that at the time he wrote the postcard he wasn't thinking about getting in Jack's pants, but in seeing an old friend. Now, clearly his desire for Jack romantically/sexually was pretty strong, but who knows how much of that was build up from the time the postcard was written and Jack's arrival, which was probably weeks later. It's also pretty clear to me that even after sex was clearly on the agenda in Ennis's mind, it was also only supposed to be a release that would let him put it out of his mind again. I wouldn't be surprised if Ennis justified the infidelity in his own mind because he didn't see it as infidelity. He never entertained the possibility of a life with Jack so it was probably easier for him to compartmentalize the two relationships even though they were both sexual. (Now, I'm not saying any of this to justify his actions. I'm just offering it as insight. While I can't say this is the truth behind Ennis's character, I can definitely say there are many married men who do think this way, and not all of them are gay.)

quote:
2. I don't like Jack. I don't think Brokeback was Jack's first experience, and...I think he should have let Ennis know some of the consequences to it. I don't think that it just happened - I think Jack decided to hesitantly pursue Ennis. He had to know that what might happen wouldn't be minor - I think if he really cared about or respected Ennis then, he would have given him a full disclosure. To me, it seems like he crossed the fine line between loving someone and using them.
I do like Jack, but maybe that's because I understand him better. (Though I definitely don't agree with his choices at all - post summer-on-the-mountain.)

I agree that Brokeback wasn't Jack's first experience. However, there is a world of difference from acknowledging his prior sexual experience and expecting him to be the guidance counselor of Ennis's post-Brokeback life. I don't think there's any indication in the movie that Jack had a clue that he was Ennis's first experience. I don't think there is any indication that Jack himself was aware of what the consequences would be for either of them. I don't think he was in any position at any point in the movie to give anything near to "full disclosure" to anyone. Certainly not as early as the events on the mountain.

I do agree that Jack was the pursuer on Brokeback, but I find absolutely nothing wrong with that. He had no way of knowing to what degree Ennis was interested (and Ennis was apparently much more interested than he let on given the fervor with which he took Jack in the pup-tent), nor what amount of experience Ennis had (and Ennis apparently knew pretty well what to do, indicating it might not have been his first experience with a man either).

I agree that Jack was immature and more than a little naive. He didn't lose that, really, at all through the movie. But I also can't fault him for that. He had no role models of what it might mean to be a mature gay man in his society, a society in which maturity by definition didn't include homosexuality. It was Ennis who was much more acutely aware of the consequences of their feelings and actions. He tried to warn Jack, in his own way, but even he didn't do that as early as Brokeback.

quote:
To me, it seems like he crossed the fine line between loving someone and using them.
The person Jack used was Lureen. (Though some of that may have been mutual. We aren't given enough clues in the movie.) I don't see how Ennis was used. If anything it was Ennis using Jack. Ennis knew how Jack felt and what Jack wanted from him and gave him just enough to keep him coming back. It was Ennis who wanted to do things by half, living one foot in one world and one foot in the other. Ennis used Jack to that end. At almost any point in the movie it could have been less of a tragedy if Ennis had been able to pick one world or the other.

quote:
I think to me it doesn't matter that they were both adults - it's not okay to pursue a married man, even if he's all for it.
I agree. It's also not OK to be unfaithful even if you are pursued. I can't give Jack any more blame than Ennis in their situation.

quote:
If she didn't know details, I think she did guess that for some reason, her father would always be lonely. I think that's why she tried to move in with him - not for her sake, but for his. I really liked her for that.
I agree. I also think Ennis refused because he knew ultimately that was why she wanted to be with him and her happiness was more important to him than his own. Of all the relationships in the movie it was Ennis and Junior's that most clearly expressed real love.

quote:
5. I don't think there's a message. I definitely don't think that the message is "society is bad." I think it does a disservice to the story it is representing to say it is a cautionary tale. It is a human story - I think it could mean many things.
I whole-heartedly agree. [Smile]
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KarlEd
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanecer:
That conversation also gave me the impression that Junior knew. I was saddened that Ennis didn't let Junior live with him. It seemed like such a solution to Ennis' misery that it irritated me when he refused to take it.

It might have been a balm to Ennis's loneliness, but it couldn't be a solution to this misery. I think Ennis was acutely aware of that and knew his life would not be the best one for her. He wanted his daughter's happiness over any small respite to his loneliness she might have been able to give him, so he refused. I found that to be a very mature choice on his part and an indication of his genuine love for his daughter.
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katharina
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quote:
I agree that Jack was immature and more than a little naive. He didn't lose that, really, at all through the movie. But I also can't fault him for that. He had no role models of what it might mean to be a mature gay man in his society, a society in which maturity by definition didn't include homosexuality.
I don't like blaming society for Jack's immaturity. I think part of being adult is examining consequences and growing up on your own.

I suppose it's possible not everyone can do that, but I think the vast majority can. At best, Jack is nuetral, but he never actually crosses into good, and post-Brokeback behavior pushes him farther and farther away from it.

I wish Ennis had decided to choose one way or the other early on. It's the fence-sitting that ended up hurting so many people.
quote:
Of all the relationships in the movie it was Ennis and Junior's that most clearly expressed real love.

I agree with this.
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KarlEd
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quote:
I don't like blaming society for Jack's immaturity. I think part of being adult is examining consequences and growing up on your own.
Oh, I agree. I think that ultimately you have to work with the hand you're dealt. But when talking about maturity in relationships, no one gains that in a vacuum. How hard it must be for those who must sacrifice their very selves to fit in. I feel for Jack and have a hard time holding him to the same standard as those for whom societal acceptance is a given.

I think Ennis would have been happier had he chosen Jack from the beginning, but I'm not sure ultimately the story wouldn't have been a tragedy for the very reasons he feared, or any number of other reasons. It was tough being gay in 1963 anywhere. Jack and Ennis would have had a hard time finding acceptance even in a big city.

I'd like to imagine an alternate vision of Jack and Ennis fixing up Jack's parents' ranch and making a go of it, but I'm not sure I can convince even myself such a thing would work in 1963. (Or even today in many parts of the country.)

quote:
At best, Jack is nuetral, but he never actually crosses into good, and post-Brokeback behavior pushes him farther and farther away from it.
I don't see either Jack or Ennis in such black or white terms. I think they were both basically good men who made grave mistakes early on and spent the rest of their lives dealing with it. I empathize more with Jack, warts and all, because at least he knew what he wanted and wasn't ashamed of wanting it. (NOTE: I'm not saying that excuses any of his behavior or his choices, but I respect what he wanted even if I don't agree with the way he went about trying to get it.) On the other hand, while I can understand Ennis's self loathing I have a harder time empathizing with it. And I don't think his choices, ultimately, were any more noble or good than Jack's were.
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pH
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I also felt like Ennis was using Jack more than the other way around. Jack seemed sort of more innocent in a way. He was certainly more of a romantic. But at the same time, he was the one who slept with other men, when there was never any indication that Ennis had anyone but Jack. However, I think that had a lot to do with the fact that Jack was much more needy. The fact that he tried again to build a cabin on a ranch with another man after he and Ennis had that fight makes him seem more sympathetic to me.

-pH

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