posted
We used to have a word of the day thread where someone would post the word of the day about midnight with sexy results. If memory serves, it was that dobie guy.
While the word of the day thread was fun, educational, and generally gave you whiter teeth and a fuller head of hair, me, I'm more interested in phrases.
I can't remember how that thread was administered. Surely people didn't just sit back and wait for dobie to post his word? Surely there were multiple words of the day as people raced to get the word up? Well, I can't remember. So, to hell with it. I'll just make it a thread that people can post in whenever, devoted not to the word of the day and its definition, but the phrase of the day and its etymology. Even though people can post in it whenever, but I'll try and do it about midnight or so if no one else does.
quote: The exact origin of "bee's knees" remains a topic of debate, but there is wide-spread agreement that the phrase first appeared in North America during the 1920s. Some interesting theories are listed below.
1. Bees carry pollen back to the hive in sacs on their legs. The allusion is to the concentrated goodness to be found around the bee's knee. (extract from the Phrase Finder).
2. The expression was coined in the 1920s by an American cartoonist named Tad Dorgan, who also graced the language with such corny superlatives as "the cat's pajamas" and less durable ones such as the "the flea's eyebrows" and - a real clunker - "the canary's tusks." Dorgan also came up with: "Yes, we have no bananas." I've long been puzzled why, to this day, the bee's knees expression has maintained a certain currency in Britain, something it has not had for decades in the United States. The thought occurs that perhaps, more than half a century on, it's a still lingering cultural artifact from the American occupation of the south of England in the lead-up to D-Day. (extract from the Guardian's Notes and Queries site, article by Dave Todd)
3. It's one of a set of nonsense catchphrases that originated in North America in the 1920s, the period of the flappers, nearly all of which compared some thing of excellent quality to a part of an animal. (extract from Michael Quinon's World Wide Words).
4. I think the idea is that on a bee, knees are strictly a luxury. The phrase originated in 1920s U.S. slang, which had a whole slue of such phrases: "the eel's ankle", "the flea's eyebrows", "the clam's garter", "the snake's hips", "the elephant's instep", "the kipper's knickers", "the cat's pyjamas", "the canary's tusks", "the sardine's whiskers". The fact that "the bee's knees" rhymes may have assisted its survival. (extract from the aue archives, article by Mark Israel)original article
5. The bee's knees is actually a development from something that was originally stated as "The be all and the end all of everything." this being rather long, was shortened to "the B's and E's" which eventually became "the bee's knees" (extract from the Guardian's Notes and Queries site, article by "Ogins")
6. My _Dictionary of American Slang_ says "bee's knees" was a fad started c1924. Like some Chinese menus, pick one from column A and one from column B... (extract from the aue archives, article by Robert Keller)original article
7. ...[the] _bee's knees_ may be a humorous pronunciation of _business_. I have seen this offered as a genuine derivation and it seems as plausible as the current favourite for _OK_. (from the aue archives, article by S. Z. Hanley)original article
quote: From MORRIS DICTIONARY OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS
KNOCK ON WOOD: There are several theories about the origin of this very common practice. One goes back to the child's game of `tag.' In one version of this game the child who is able to touch a tree, thereby touching wood, is free from capture.
Then there is a Biblical theory that the wood symbolizes the cross on which Christ was crucified. In Galatians (6:14) we find `But God forbid that I should glory, save the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.' The theory here is that if you have made an exaggerated boast you will be forgiven if you turn your thoughts to the Cross.
Still another notion is that `knocking on wood' goes far back into ancient times, when spirits were thought to live in trees. So should danger threaten, simply rap on the trunk of a tree and summon up the aid of the good spirit within.
There is an Irish belief that you `knock on wood' to let the leprechauns know that you are thanking them for a bit of good luck.
A Jewish version says it originated during the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada during the 1490s. During that time Jews were in flight and since temples and synagogues were built of wood, they evolved a code to use in knocking on doors to gain admission. Since this resulted in lives being saved, it became commonplace to `knock on wood' for good luck.
posted
Huh. What I heard was that you knocked on wood so that the wood sprites who lived there wouldn't hear what you were saying, and therefore couldn't jinx you. But it doesn't do any good, because everybody now-a-days knocks after they have spoken . . . at which point the wood sprites have already heard what you are saying and can jinx you anyway.
I have no sources to quote on this. Just something a co-worker told me.
Posts: 364 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I'd heard Amilia's version, too -- that you knocked concurrently with what you were saying, to avoid being jinxed by listening ears.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
As an aside, let me say that this is actually harder than I thought it would be. I'm trying to use phrases that aren't logically accessible, that are still in somewhat current useage in the English speaking world. So, if I don't make a post one day, I'm sure you'll all understand.
As to the whole knocking on wood phrase, I've only heard it used within the context of wishing for good fortune in general. For instance,"I'm going fishing tomorrow, knock on wood."
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote: I've only heard it used within the context of wishing for good fortune in general. For instance,"I'm going fishing tomorrow, knock on wood."
Yes, but if the wood sprites hear you say you want to go fishing tomorrow, they will do everything in their power to make it impossible for you to go. :-)
And I'm enjoying your hard work. This is very interesting.
Posts: 364 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote: I've only heard it used within the context of wishing for good fortune in general.
Really? I've only heard it used in almost the exact opposite context -- as a way of warding off a possible BAD thing.
So someone might say "I'm going fishing tomorrow, knock on wood" -- and by this mean that it had rained yesterday, and their car was still being wonky, and their daughter was mildly sick, but that none of these things were CERTAIN to prevent their fishing trip. So you knock on wood to ward off those things which MIGHT prevent the trip.
Other usages I've heard recently: "We'll come in under budget, knock on wood." "It'll be a short meeting, knock on wood." "And once we get this last bit finished, the whole thing should be seamless. Knock on wood."
That's not "good fortune in general." That's "please don't let something come up to prevent this."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
That does make more sense, now that I think about it. edit: That's actually more along the lines of what I meant to say, less wishing for good fortune in general, and more good fortune so that my particular activity doesn't get prevented.
So, I knew what I wanted to say, but said it badly. Bleh. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I've usually heard in more in the "I've never had a car accident in my life, knock wood" kind of way.
Personally, I think play-by-play guys should have to do this. "He's made 37 consecutive field goals" Miss. "He's a 95% free throw shooter and is 6 for 6 tonight." Tank. I hate those jinxes!
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
What about "hear, hear" "with bated breath" "pore over the books" "rein in your impulses" and other phrases that people often tend to spell wrong from not understanding the phrase's origins? Don't know if you would find any of those interesting to do but I thought I would toss them out as suggestions.
I think this is a great idea and I find stuff like this fascinating!
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APPLE OF HIS EYE - "A cherished person or object. In old English the eye's pupil was known as the apple because it was thought to be spherical and solid. Since the pupil is a crucial and indispensable portion of the eye, it serves as a symbol of something cherished. An example in the Coverdale Bible of 1535 (Zechariah II, 8) is: 'Who so toucheth you, shal touche the aple of his owne eye.' The expression also appears in Deuteronomy XXXII, 10 as part of a song spoken by Moses: He found him in a desert land, and in the howling waste of the wilderness; he encircled him, he cared for him, he kept him as the aple of his eye." From "The Dictionary of Cliches" by James Rogers (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985).
A second reference says: "That which one holds dearest, as in 'You're the apple of my eye.' The phrase is from the Bible (Deut. 32:10), which says the Lord kept Israel 'as the apple of his eye.' 'Pupillam,' or pupil, is actually the Latin for the 'apple' of the phrase, but English translation of the Bible used 'apple' because this was the early word for the pupil of the eye, which was thought to be a solid apple-shaped body. Because it is so essential to sight, the eye's apple, or pupil, is to be cherished and protected and 'the apple of one's eye' came to mean anything extremely precious. The literal translation of the Hebrew phrase, incidentally, is 'You are as the little man in the eye' (one's own reflection in the pupil of another's eye)." "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997).
Thank you all for the suggestions. I will get to them in short order if no one else does, but I kind of wanted to get this one out of the way as it's been bugging me.
I will be a-travelling over the next few days. Not sure if I'll have access to the 'net or not.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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All you have to do is one simple action and Bob's your uncle! You have attained something very easily. Just like Arthur Balfour did in 1886.
Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says the nephew was A.J.Balfour and the post in question was Chief Secretary for Ireland. Since Uncle Bob had previously appointed him as
(1) President of the Local Government Board, and (2) Secretary for Scotland
this third posting lead some uncharitable souls to mutter darkly about nepotism. The uncle in question was the Prime Minister Lord Robert Marquis of Salisbury.
Many considered the appointment was not made on merit but because "Bob was his uncle". He was the nephew of Lord Salisbury, whose Christian name was Robert, or Bob for short.
In fact, Mr Balfour proved a formidable politician and later became Prime minister himself.
posted
"Rein in your impulses" is surely quite obvious : You use reins to control a horse, and you rein a horse in when it is going too fast or is otherwise out of control; in particular, you pull the reins towards you, hence 'in'.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Wow, I'd never heard that "Bob is his uncle" phrase at all. How lovely! I want more of these!
KOM you're exactly right about reining in impulses, of course. I've seen it spelled "rain" and "reign", which lead to some colorful mental imagery for me.
"Baited breath" is the one I love best. I keep thinking someone ate a pizza with anchovies, in order to bait their breath, and then are held transfixed in keen anticipation of someone taking the bait. I suppose in the original "bated breath", the word "bated" means "abated", meaning the person is holding their breath in anticipation.
Another one I love is "pouring over the books" in which I imagine a person's vision being so intense that it's like a liquid dripping all over the page.
But my suggesting are all fairly boring. I want to read more obscure phrase etymology. I love those kind with metaphors that nobody gets anymore because they're anachronisms. Or those with sports metaphors which I don't get because I'm clueless about sports.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Dog, my examples are all phrases people often spell wrongly, giving rise to weird metaphorical interpretations. I know it's poring. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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