posted
i just finishied reading the book Going Postal by Terry Prachett and in the book it mentions about the idea that hope wouldn't be possible without freewill (or at least the illusion of it)
so i thought: that would mean that even if the world was destined to be in such a way we woulld never know it.
Now i want to know other peoples oppinions
Destiny or Freewill
Posts: 250 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
If free will doesn't exist, I am very content to remain ignorant of the fact. Anyone else believe in deja vu? (I'm feeling it right now.)
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Insufficient information, does not compute. More specifically, we do not know how chaos theory interacts with quantum indeterminacy, nor whether this has any relevance for the human brain. Indeed, in this context it is not quite clear what free will even means; is it sufficient that it be unpredictable even with arbitrarily good information? Then the solar system has free will. Unpredictable even in principle? That gives free will to electrons. Unpredictable statistically, in large samples? Then you have removed free will from humans. And none of these, necessarily, detracts from actual determinism - a chaotic system is perfectly determined by its initial conditions, it's just that arbitrarily small errors blow up in a given time, in the strict, mathematical sense of 'arbitrarily' : That is, there is really no error, no matter how small, that will not behave like this.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I like to take a pinch of both myself. I believe in destiny in a sense (I believe there is a purpose, direction, and plan for my life), but I also believe in free will and the ability to choose (which can delay destiny and possibly even change things if enough is done). So yeah, looking at it now it sounds sort of contradictory. It makes sense to me though.
EDIT: Just thought of a good example. I can say that I believe I have a destiny as far as career goes. Free will comes into play though in how I get to that destination. It's like you're at point A and there are multiple paths to point B. You pick one and take it where you will.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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All right, you win. You win. I give. I'll say it. I'll say it. I'll say it. DESTINY! DESTINY! NO ESCAPING THAT FOR ME! DESTINY! DESTINY! NO ESCAPING THAT FOR ME! Posts: 1215 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:If free will doesn't exist, I am very content to remain ignorant of the fact. Anyone else believe in deja vu? (I'm feeling it right now.)
I once heard a theory that deja vu is caused by one eye/ear stalling before sending information to the brain. So one sensor relays the information, then a stall, then the other. You feel like you've experienced something twice because, as far as your neurology is concerned, you have. Don't know if that's actually true or not, but I thought it was interesting.
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posted
No that can't be true for Deja vu because when it happenes i have distinct memories of the exact same thing happening not seconds before but like a year earlier
Posts: 250 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I don't think I fully believe in either one. I personally think God has a purpose for me in my life and pushes me in that direction. That can only loosely be called destiny in my mind. Also, I can only follow that path if I have chosen to listen to Him and I have freewill to do that or not. So really I guess my answer is both and neither.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't think people are even conscious individuals in the way we usually mean those words, but believe that it's necessary for us to pretend otherwise.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I consider free will to be an absolutely necessary falsehood.
I consider free will to be one of the very few things that we can know with certainty are true - based on the simple fact that (among other things) I can choose to blink my eyes whenever I want (like I just did now) and they do it. If you can choose to do things, then you have free will. Those that would say this is not really freely choosing are going to have to give a pretty powerful argument that it isn't, because it's just that sort of thing I've always called choosing, and I'm not sure what choosing could be if not that.
Confusion arises, I believe, because many people think you can't choose to do something unless you could have also have chosen to do otherwise. I don't see why that follows. In fact, that definition of "free will" seem bizarre - it seems to suggest that we are only free if our decisions are arbitrary. I think the only way you could have chosen to do otherwise is if there was nothing that made you chose the way you did. And if there was nothing that determined how you chose the way you did, no physical or mental reason for your choice, then your choice was arbitrary. I'm inclined to think that to be free is not equivalent to acting in an arbitrary manner. When I make a choice, I like to think it is what I feel is the right choice at the time, and thus the only choice I could possibly make. I don't understand why that would cause it to cease being a free choice.
I have a suspicion Christianity might be somewhat responsible for confusing the free will issue.... after all, if God can cause us to do whatever He wants AND we can still have free will, then one particularly popular answer to The Problem of Evil is complicated a good deal. Those are my current thoughts on the matter....
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:I like to think it is what I feel is the right choice at the time
I don't believe you have any REAL freedom or control over what you feel or think, and therefore the choices you make based on those inputs are by their very nature somewhat deterministic.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
What would REAL freedom and control of what I feel and think consist of? I can't conceive of what it would even mean to choose in a non-deterministic way. And thus I have to think that REAL freedom is deterministic choice. It's either that or humans have invented and frequently use a term that doesn't mean anything that makes sense - much like a square circle.
Again, I agree my all my choices are more or less deterministic. I just don't see why this should imply they aren't free choices.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Here's my take on the matter, sorry if it's not entirely clear, it's a difficult topic discuss precisely:
I perceive the world in such a way that I am under the impression that when I do something, that action is the result of my desire to do it. If there is some force (or set of forces) that controls my thoughts in such a way that it can control what I think I want to do, it doesn't change the fact that according to how I experience life, I still think that I want to do the things that I want to do.
If there is indeed some force distinct from myself that is causing me to act the way I do, it functions on such a deep level and has such total control over my thoughts that awareness of such a force is impossible.
There is no way to scientifically prove the existence of something like free will. The only way that I can know for sure that I don't have free will would be for the force that controls my actions to make me aware of its separate existence. However, as I experience the world, the part of me that controls my actions and the part of me that experiences reality is an indistinguishable thing that I understand as being consciousness. If my "will" were separated from my "awareness", thus proving the absence of free will, it would destroy my perception of how I experience the world. I cannot imagine such an experience happening without fundamentally altering a person's existence (resulting in death or other drastic changes of one's state of being).
Consequently, it is my belief that we will never be able definitively prove or disprove free will in this life. A person's view on the issue becomes a matter of personal choice or an unknowably determined decision. Either way, a definite answer will never be known.
In conclusion, I happen to like the idea that I have a little control over the world I am in, so I think that I choose to think that I have free will.
Posts: 148 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: King of Men, i've been interested in chaos theory for a while, but never got around to reading up. Do you know a good resource for a beginner?
Edit - Grats on breaking 3k posts, by the way.
Thank you. Didn't actually notice it happening.
To get back to the actual question, sorry, no. I seem to recall a book called 'Does God play Dice' by (perhaps) Ian Stewart, but it may have been about quantum theory, instead. But whatever the subject, it was pretty good.
Tom, that is a really depressing worldview - pardon me, I meant that my brain is wired to react to the letters contained in your post in a pattern usually identified as 'depressive'. Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with its truth value. Can I ask how you reach that conclusion? It is clear that individual neurons are quite deterministic, barring the aforementioned quantum effects. (And neurons are large, sure, but there's a lot of them. Even a small probability of a flip adds up over the whole brain.) But it is not clear that the whole network is non-chaotic. For all you know, the chaos timescale of the brain is five seconds, and the decay or non-decay of a neutron in Alpha Centauri affects the pathways of your brain.
But again, I do not necessarily think the concept of free will has been properly defined. Do we really understand what it means? It seems, for example, that I and Tresopax would disagree on the subject. Perhaps someone could offer a definition for us to argue about? As for me, I am choosing this moment to go to bed, or perhaps my neurons are being stimulated by sleep hormones in such a fashion that they will move my body to the bedroom. Take your pick. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:It is clear that individual neurons are quite deterministic, barring the aforementioned quantum effects. (And neurons are large, sure, but there's a lot of them. Even a small probability of a flip adds up over the whole brain.) But it is not clear that the whole network is non-chaotic.
But again... why would the choices made by a chaotic brain be any more free than those made by a deterministic brain? Or any less depressing, for that matter? It seems to me that a chaotic brain is just more random than a deterministic one.
Frankly, I'm happy I don't act randomly or in a chaotic fashion - I'd much rather have reasons that absolutely determine the choices I make, so I can consider the choices I make to be definitively better than the other options I pass up.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I like what Tres has to say. I think a lot of people define free will in such a way that the term is meaningless.
It reminds me of the argument that when I do something kind for someone else or do the responsible thing, I am really doing it so I can feel good about myself. Therefore, all acts, even the ones that appear altruistic, are selfish. I find that definition of selfishness to be meaningless.
To illustrate what I mean by "meaningful": It is far more meaningful when discussing "selfishness" to place the distinction between an act that brings instant gratification and an act that brings long term happiness involving delayed gratification. (ie: paying my bills isn't as fun as spending that money on toys, but I know I will be happier in the longrun if I pay my bills instead.)
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
beverly - that reminds me of a quote from Wicked:
quote: Was I really seeking good Or just seeking attention? Is that all good deeds are When looked at with an ice-cold eye?
Maybe not the exact same vein, but still, it begs the question.
As to freewill vs. destiny, I believe that we all have freewill. There is no such thing as destiny and we can all choose out path and its destination, no matter where that path may lead us. If I didn't have a choice in my life, I would be very distraught. I don't like to think that there's someone directing my life. I like to be in control. Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I would to request that, when saying "I believe X about free will", people give some kind of reasoning other than "I want to feel I have control". So do I, so does everyone; it doesn't exactly add anything to the debate.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Okay, I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I see people doing things so independently that I believe can't be part of an overriding plan. I don't believe that a God, or instituteur of the destiny, would give people freewill if He didn't intend for us to use them to the fullest extent. It seems somewhat hypocritical to allow for freewill without allowing us to use that freewill to follow whatever path we choose. I hope that clarifies. I'm not great at articulating my thoughts, so I'm sorry.
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
What if that God has a way of knowing what we will do with our free will? Does that somehow remove it? I remember someone saying on another forum that they believe it would remove free will. I do not understand that line of thinking.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Well, I'm not sure about my beliefs in God, so I'm not sure I could answer that without making people upset. But, if there was a God (which there might be, I haven't figured this out yet), what would be the point of creating people if He knew exactly what they were going to do with their lives. For me, part of what makes life amazing is that I DON'T know what I'm going to do from day to day.
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
To Evie: I actually have the answer to that question, one that satisfies me, anyway.
You see, I believe that there is value in the experience. It is nice for God that He knows what we are going to do, but it doesn't mean anything. We have to go through it ourselves and learn. To truly learn, there must be the possibility of real failure and loss. I believe God put us here for what we can learn and acheive and that nearly all of the time we come out the better for it.
I believe God is in the act of bringing things to their fruition, taking things from theory to reality. Perhaps it isn't "fun" for Him to know what will happen but perhaps it is fulfilling for Him to see it through our eyes, we who don't know what will happen--to have compassion on our circumstance and human condition. To teach us and see us "grow".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Juxtapose, thanks for that information. I get deja vu a lot, and I mean a lot. It's annoying and of no benefit to me whatsoever. I've had hearing detereoration my entire life, needing surgery at age 5, 10 and 15 (I'm now sixteen), so your premise seems very logical. I'm going to see an optomitrist soon about getting glasses. Would that be a person to ask about this, or should I just go ask my GP? I might be a bit reluctant to ask for help from a doctor who doesn't believe in the idea (like, here at least, a lot don't believe in chronic fatigue).
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:What if that God has a way of knowing what we will do with our free will? Does that somehow remove it?
Only if God occasionally meddles, via miracles and the like. If miracles do not happen, God can be as omniscient as He wants without affecting Free Will.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Free Will: The ability of a person to make a choice where the outcome cannot be predicted with complete accuracy before that choice is made.
I disagree with this definition, because I think our ability to predict the outcome of a choice has nothing to do with whether that choice is free. Here's two counterexamples that I think show why:
-A perfectly random coin: We cannot predict with complete accuracy what it will do, but does that mean it has free will?
-Anyone who always does the same thing, when placed in a given situation... such as an unrecovered alcoholic or a serial rapist. Does the fact that we can predict they will do something wrong in that situation mean they didn't freely choose to commit that wrong? I don't think we should abdicate someone's responsibility for an unethical, criminal, or unhealthy act just because we could predict they'd choose to do it.
I'd propose an alternate definition...
Free Will: The ability of a person to determine his or her own future actions, to some degree.
And here's the key - this definition says nothing about whether or not other things determine the way you choose to determine your action. If Y completely determines Z, then X can completely determine Y (and thus indirectly completely determine Z), without violating Y's free will. Furthermore, knowing X would allow us to predict with certainty what Z would be, yet Y would still be free, because Y would also still determine Z.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:And here's the key - this definition says nothing about whether or not other things determine the way you choose to determine your action.
Which is why it's a useless, crappy definition. Because I can set up a situation in which I know precisely how you'll respond, thus eliminating your free will entirely, and yet still pretend that you have free will under this definition. So this definition is right out, too.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Because I can set up a situation in which I know precisely how you'll respond, thus eliminating your free will entirely
Yes, but why would that eliminate my free will? Why do you think knowing how I will respond eliminates my free will?
If I know how you will respond to this question, does that mean you are no longer free to respond to it how you wish?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I'm not sure how God's "meddling" does away with our free will either. That's like saying that if gravity suddenly started working backwards, it would remove my free will. It would certainly freak me out, and I wouldn't like suddenly being flung out into space, but I don't see how it nullifies my free will.
Granted, I believe that God keeps "meddling" to a minimum and has certain criteria that must be met before said "meddling".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Granted, I believe that God keeps "meddling" to a minimum and has certain criteria that must be met before said "meddling".
Do you mean that God has his own criteria that we do not know, or are there specific conditions that we know of that must be met? If the latter, what are those conditions?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I believe that some of the criteria are: 1) someone requesting that meddling and 2) the requestor having overall "good" in mind rather than selfish desire 3) faith 4) keeping promises He has made to His faithful servants both now and since the beginning of mankind.
I think there are other criteria as well that I cannot currently see or understand, including what God sees as being best in the long run and the needs of His children who are not currently living. (Pre-born, or post-death. After all, they have faith and free will as well.)
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The problem that I have with the idea of free will is that it seems that a person's decisons are nothing more than the result of a complicated set of rules governing the way our brains function, uncontrollable input of information, and some perhaps random events at the quantum level. In other words, our choices are determined based on our adherence to a set of laws beyond our control. Just because it feels like I am making a decision, that doesn't mean that I could have actually made any other decision, and that's the idea that I struggle with.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
If god is Omniscent, then he knew everything you would ever do before he even created you. He knew every implication of making you in such a way that you would do whatever it is you would do. If he didn't want you doing whatever you do, he wouldn't have made you like that.
This is the problem with Omniscence+Omnipotence vs Free Will. If God made you knowing all your choices and could have made you differently to change those choices, how is it that you have Free Will again?
And if you don't have free will, then what's the point of this life when your ultimate reward or punishment is predetermined?
posted
Us Mormons believe that there is a part of us that God didn't create, which has always existed, that is eternal in essence. This is the part of us that has free will.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Us Mormons believe that there is a part of us that God didn't create, which has always existed, that is eternal in essence. This is the part of us that has free will.
Assuming a metaphysical concept like this is the only way I can agree with the idea of free will. Of course, that also makes it a matter of faith.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Is believing in intelligence that isn't just part of the normal ebb and flow of the universe--an actor rather than something to be acted upon--just a religious thing?
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:I'm not sure how God's "meddling" does away with our free will either. That's like saying that if gravity suddenly started working backwards, it would remove my free will.
If God knows your choices AND the result of all your choices, interfering to change the results of those choices removes your free will. Saul's free will was obliterated on the road to Damascus, for example.
And if He changes some things and does NOT change other things, presumably He's okay with the things He does not change -- which amounts to explicit PERMISSION to do those things, given that He possesses both the knowledge and the power to prevent, and also the will to OCCASIONALLY prevent.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
From my perspective, Saul’s free will was restored to him on the road to Damascus. He was struck down, but somewhere between the time he was struck down and the time he recovered and became “Paul,” he was given another chance, which he took. The event was forceful, but it took a jolt to get him to see that he was traveling down a dead end street. I would say he was given a clear view of the consequences of his actions and a chance to change his ways and get back on a road that didn’t lead to destruction.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Is believing in intelligence that isn't just part of the normal ebb and flow of the universe--an actor rather than something to be acted upon--just a religious thing?
I suppose it depends on the reason for which you might believe in its existence. Is there evidence (outside of religious experiences) that suggests that something like this does exist? If so, I would very much interested in reading about it. If not, then I don't see how it's not a religious thing.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:interfering to change the results of those choices removes your free will.
I'm not sure it removes it, but it does give that person extreme power to direct the course of events. I tend to believe that God uses that power with *exreme* restraint. But that is a matter of faith.
quote:Saul's free will was obliterated on the road to Damascus, for example.
This is an interesting example--certainly doesn't seem on the surface to follow the criteria I laid out. I still disagree with the obliterated part--Saul exercised his free will in how he responded to the vision. He was so zealous in his response--one of the things I really admire about him. I imagine God knew Saul would respond that way, and that went into the decision to allow the vision.
quote:And if He changes some things and does NOT change other things, presumably He's okay with the things He does not change -- which amounts to explicit PERMISSION to do those things, given that He possesses both the knowledge and the power to prevent, and also the will to OCCASIONALLY prevent.
Which, if I understand your past posts on the topic, you turn an accusitory eye on God (if you believe He exists) for the things which He does allow. I tend to look at the same events differnetly.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Is believing in intelligence that isn't just part of the normal ebb and flow of the universe--an actor rather than something to be acted upon--just a religious thing?
I suppose it depends on the reason for which you might believe in its existence. Is there evidence (outside of religious experiences) that suggests that something like this does exist? If so, I would very much interested in reading about it. If not, then I don't see how it's not a religious thing.
I just wonder how a belief in such intelligences can be lumped into the same “religion” category as a belief in Jesus Christ as our savior. I don’t have an agenda with this, I’m just wondering how you define “religion,” I guess.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Saul's free will was obliterated on the road to Damascus, for example.
Hmmm, I can see two sides to this example.
On the one hand, a God that manipulates events in order for you to act according to the way He wants you to act doesn't seem like free will.
On the other hand, a God that has the ability to know the future but does not always exercise that ability does not have to contradict the idea of free will. In the example of Saul, God could have chosen not to fortell what Saul was going to do, rather, He just wanted Saul to make his ultimate choice based on knowledge rather than ignorance with Saul still having the choice in determining how he wanted to act upon his newly acquired information.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I just wonder how a belief in such intelligences can be lumped into the same “religion” category as a belief in Jesus Christ as our savior. I don’t have an agenda with this, I’m just wondering how you define “religion,” I guess.
I don't think I would exactly classify it as religion. If you belive in free will because of religious doctrine, then yes, I think would be a religious belief. If you believe in it for any other reason, then it wouldn't necessarily be religious, but it would take a great deal of faith considering our inability to study or detect any such thing scientifically.
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