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So um. If I'm looking to think about maybe converting to Judaism, who do I go to for that? And for more information as to what that would entail and all?
I know we must have had an "Ask" thread about this once upon a time. Pretty sure Raia or someone handled it . . .
I believe the short answer is -- if you don't have Jewish heritage, you would be highly discouraged from converting. If you do have matrilinial (is that a word?) Jewish heritage, you're already a Jew and should look up a shul in your area and they'll be happy to help you. But I've sure someone else will be in soon to correct me, or you could bump the linked thread for a faster answer. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I don't think Joldo would be discouraged from converting for not having a Jewish heritage. I do believe that Orthodox Jews would not encourage her unless she was willing to become Orthodox. It all depends on how conservative she wants to be. For the record, most (edit: many) Jews would not consider her "Jewish" unless she were to go live a Jewish life. Meaning: have an official conversion, and follow the laws (kosher, marriage, etc.).
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Joldo, I would be really interested in hearing what has lead you to considering this. I only ask because I once considered converting.
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I don't think it's a question of Orthodox Jews not encouraging if someone's not willing to become Orthodox, I believe several of our Jewish members of various "flavors" (Sorry if that's insulting, I don't know the correct word) have stated that the first answer to potential converts is to go follow the laws for non-Jews instead, and that only people who really, really pursue it are allowed to convert. Because (as I understand it) once you convert there's no going back, you're considered a Jew whether you follow the laws and lead a Jewish life or not.
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Also, I just realized we're probably not going to get any answers tonight, because, of course, it's the sabbath.
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Yikes, I wasn't sure if Joldo was a he or a she. I just don't know every Hatrack person well enough to know. Sorry Joldo, if I incorrectly identified you!
ElJay, I had thought of that too. That the people who can answer these questions best won't be able to until Saturday night.
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As to Val's question: I've been doing a lot of reading on Judaism, and I like the feel of it. I love the ways of thought associated with it, and the different relationship with God.
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As far as having jewish heritage goes, everyone who has any European or Middle Eastern ancestry at all has some Jewish blood. That's simple math. The Jews have been in Europe for at least a thousand years.
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And for most of that time they were discouraged from marrying outside of their faith, and not the most popular faith around.
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Kwea, are you actually debating my point about Jewish heritage? IMO, the Jews haven't been insular enough consistently since the time of Abraham for what you're saying to make sense. You do realize that only a few hundred women over the last 4600 years or so would have to have married and lived their lives and borne children outside of the faith for us all of European and/or Middle Eastern heritage to be matrilineally Jewish, right? That's simple math. 4600 years is a long time. That's over 150 generations.
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steven: That's not remotely true. Matrinlinearity is a single line of descent, so the only way for the line to survive is if each generation has a female child, and only those males directly born from a female child would be considered Jewish.
IOW, everyone's mother would have to be Jewish, which would mean all their mothers would have to be Jewish, which would mean all their mothers would have to be Jewish . . . et cetera.
It is not likely in the least. It is, however, likely that everyone has a Jewish ancestor, even a female Jewish ancestor. That is not the same thing.
Btw, I think this conversation is very amusing to be occurring mostly on a Saturday .
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I don't think Jews have been in Europe in appreciable numbers for 4600 years. We might wan't to consider what exactly "European" even meant 4,600 years ago.
While it's true that even a low rate of intermarriage (with offspring, of course) would guarantee overtime that a large proportion of modern humans would share ANY particular ancient ancestry, there's also some other things to consider in order to be considered one thing or another.
I look forward to some solid answers to this tomorrow.
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Joldo, I'd be sceptical of quick conversion if I were you. As with all religions, what seems like something from outside has often very different dynamics from the inside: and unlike a gym or an evening club with your mates, a religion is not something you easily get into or out of.
Not that it's a bad thing, Heaven forbid, but you should be quite knowledgeable about a Jewish way of life before converting... And remember the Jewish tradition is pretty long and extensive, so there's a lot to grasp. My father converted to Judaism in 1969 because he was fed-up with the Church, but things done in Israel in the name of religion turned him off Judaism as well. So it was all a little pointless for him personally in the long run of the past 38 years.
One thing, though, I can tell you, and that is that if you get on the better side of a "religious attitude" and you find yourself a good community (as I very fortunately found for myself), there is just SO MUCH beauty and goodness that it will overwhelm you at times with joy and addict you. It happens to me almost every Saturday, and I kid you not.
Any other technical or opinion questions you have - feel free to e-mail me. Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Laws for non-jews? What does that include?
steven, I think the reference is to the 7 Noahide Laws (link is to Wikipedia).
quote: 1. Idolatry - You shall not make for yourself an idol. 2. Murder - You shall not murder. 3. Theft - You shall not steal. 4. Sexual Promiscuity - You shall not commit adultery. 5. Blasphemy - You shall not blaspheme. 6. Cruelty to Animals - Do not eat the flesh of a living animal. 7. Government - You shall set up an effective government to police the preceding six laws.
(PS: I read elsewhere that it's been a time of changes for you lately. Take good care of yourself, okay?)
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quote: Joldo, I'd be sceptical of quick conversion if I were you. As with all religions, what seems like something from outside has often very different dynamics from the inside: and unlike a gym or an evening club with your mates, a religion is not something you easily get into or out of.
Hence the thread. This thread is more to get some learnin' in . . .
And though I doubt I've plumbed the depths of Judaism, this is hardly a superficial fancy. I've looked into it a good bit.
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quote: Cruelty to Animals - Do not eat the flesh of a living animal.
I'm curious about this one. Are they suggesting that non-Jews should be vegetarians? Jews don't even abide by that. What am I missing?
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No, it's the flesh of a "living animal" not a "once living animal." As in, "don't eat an animal that's still alive." You have to wonder what neighboring tribes were doing that this had to be spelled out explicitly.
To be considered a Jew, you need more than just having heard it. For example, evidence may be finding a grave in a Jewish cemetary for a relative on your matrilineal line. Or a Jewish marriage license. Something like that.
As for more information, I would think you could go to a local Chabad (www.chabad.org) and they'd be willing to talk to you. They'd at least be willing to talk to you about the laws for non-Jews.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Laws for non-jews? What does that include?
As far as having jewish heritage goes, everyone who has any European or Middle Eastern ancestry at all has some Jewish blood. That's simple math. The Jews have been in Europe for at least a thousand years.
And we've intermarried very little. Most of it has actually been by force, which gives us "non-Jewish blood" (not that there's any such thing, mind you), but doesn't give anyone else "Jewish blood" (which also doesn't exist).
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quote:Originally posted by Chanie: No, it's the flesh of a "living animal" not a "once living animal." As in, "don't eat an animal that's still alive." You have to wonder what neighboring tribes were doing that this had to be spelled out explicitly.
It's done regularly in 21st century America, Chanie (Link).
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quote: Joldo, I'd be sceptical of quick conversion if I were you. As with all religions, what seems like something from outside has often very different dynamics from the inside: and unlike a gym or an evening club with your mates, a religion is not something you easily get into or out of.
Hence the thread. This thread is more to get some learnin' in . . .
And though I doubt I've plumbed the depths of Judaism, this is hardly a superficial fancy. I've looked into it a good bit.
It's still something to avoid. If it's a matter of wanting to connect with God the way we do, you don't have to convert to do that. Joldo, if I found out tomorrow that my great-grandmother hadn't actually been Jewish, there's just about nothing in the world that could get me to convert to Judaism. It is a major responsibility.
Frankly, it harms us to let someone convert who doesn't live a completely observant life. Forever. It harms the convert as well, but if they aren't being observant any more, odds are they don't care about that.
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Joldo, another something to be aware of is that if you convert by a method that is not "halachically correct," roughly translated not "according to all of the laws," your conversion will not recognized by Orthodox Jews. And if you do convert that way, you will be required to swear that you will keep the Sabbath, keep kosher, and keep the rules of family purity.
I have a friend whose mother converted through a Reform ceremony. This friend now has to convert to Judaism to get married, even though she was "raised a Jew."
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Can I ask- why bother converting? I really mean that- if you think you believe in something, and that thing is what the Jews believe, then it seems to me that you are jewish and that's it. Just tell people you're Jewish, or don't say anything and just start living that way.
Though I'm not a Jew, my Godmother is a Jew (reform) and this is what she always says. She thinks of judaism, or rather of Jews as a cultural and ethnic group she was born into. She has told me that Judaism is not to be thought of in the way that Christianity is, that Jews don't, on the whole, care for the idea of proselytizing or converting. This is a function of a long history which has made Jews into ethnic groups, and extinguished the part of their culture that had any interest in spreading itself through advocacy. I have had Christian family members yarn on about how great it is to be a Christian, and if asked about converting to Judaism, my Godmother would say: "my God, why would you bother?" To her the idea is stupid- like saying you're going to convert to looking different (or some other meaningless thing).
Also, on strictly philosophical grounds- Judaism predates Platonic ideas of "perfect philosophy" and the idea that a religion provides complete answers to life's problems. Christian philosophy is partly a function of the western re-introduction of Plato in the second millenium, from the Arabic sources that had preserved it since the fall of Rome. Also early Christians were a cult group that sought expression through the exploration of new philosophies, such as Platonism. Christianity eventually spread among people who were not Jewish, and who therefore were less inclined to reject a blending of philosophies, as well as an adaption of their own religious principles, philosophies and myths.
Out of this you get Christianity, but take the cultism out of that equation, and it would never have become a religion at all. Thus Judaism has survived in a less dominant position through ties of heritage, rather than cults of personality. This makes for a culture of strongly held values and tradition, but you don't see Rabbis on late night television screaming about Moses and Issiah. You also don't see anybody too enthusiastic about conversion- because Judaism survived thousands of years without converting whole groups of people, it is naturally inclined to sustain itself without depending on this very Christian and Muslim outlook (because they were two religions based heavily on cults of personality, and they still are!).
But then that's me in my modern Agnostic, post Judeo-Christian upbringing, in which I don't feel the need to follow a religion, but still feel the need to explain to other people why they too do not need religion. Isn't it all so strange and fascinating? I would give all my beliefs or lack of them just to know more about myself and others.
posted
I just want to point out that as I said before, if you don't go through the conversion process (which is often a multi-year process of learning), most Jews will not consider you Jewish.
Of course, there are many styles of observance, and some Reform Jews might. But the Reform movement has looser definitions of a Jew (such as the child of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother).
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Can I ask- why bother converting? I really mean that- if you think you believe in something, and that thing is what the Jews believe, then it seems to me that you are jewish and that's it. Just tell people you're Jewish, or don't say anything and just start living that way.
I imagine that if he's attracted to Judaism at all, it's probably because of the value we put on truth. Lying would sort of be the opposite of that.
Judaism is not just a belief system. You can think you're a Jew all you want, but if you don't convert, according to the rules that God gave us, you just aren't.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Though I'm not a Jew, my Godmother is a Jew (reform) and this is what she always says.
Well, of course she does. She's Reform. The Reform movement explicitly came into being in order to give Jews who wanted to chuck Judaism a framework so they could pretend that they hadn't actually done so.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: She thinks of judaism, or rather of Jews as a cultural and ethnic group she was born into. She has told me that Judaism is not to be thought of in the way that Christianity is, that Jews don't, on the whole, care for the idea of proselytizing or converting.
She's mistaken. We don't proselytize, and never have. But if a non-Jew wants to be a Jew, converting is the only way it happens.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Also, on strictly philosophical grounds- Judaism predates Platonic ideas of "perfect philosophy" and the idea that a religion provides complete answers to life's problems.
Actually, Judaism both predates that and is the original source of it.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: You also don't see anybody too enthusiastic about conversion- because Judaism survived thousands of years without converting whole groups of people, it is naturally inclined to sustain itself without depending on this very Christian and Muslim outlook (because they were two religions based heavily on cults of personality, and they still are!).
No, Orincoro. We don't seek converts because we've always been about quality over quantity.
Understand... if you eat a ham sandwich, you've done nothing wrong whatsoever. If I eat a ham sandwich, I've harmed myself on a spiritual level. I've caused bad things to happen to the Jewish people as a whole. And I've eroded the very fabric of existence. Now, given that, why on earth would we want to proselytize? The only converts we're ever interested in are those who are absolutely committed, in a way that far too few born Jews are. We're stuck with those Jews who already are Jewish and don't keep God's laws. The last thing we'd ever want is to create more of them.
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Out of interest, why would God give people the ability to erode the fabric of existence by eating pork?
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<shrug> Free will, Tom. The Torah is a fundamental part of God's plan, as is the nation of Israel keeping that Torah. To the extent that we rebel against that plan, we harm all of existence.
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Lisa, tend to think that the modern belief structure in any religion is a function of what allows that religion to survive and thrive. Judaism, unlike a cult religion like Christianity, was born out of a cultural and mythical heritage that predates the idea of Judaism as a religion. The whole idea of a religion in the modern sense is based on cult religions, not religions like Judaism, which evolved over much longer time periods.
You say "no Orincoro," but your explanation agrees with my conclusions anyway. I'm sorry that I, as a non-Jew, would dare to try and explain what history might make modern Judaism what it is, but I also dislike the idea of members of the group denying the painfully obvious process involved in their history. Judaism didn't start as a "quality over quantity" religion, it started as a mythic heritage that turned into a religion over a very long time. When that happens, the religion is naturally disinclined to perpetuate itself through conversion, and that is why Christianity grew out of Judaism and seperated from it so fast.
In Catholic highschool, we were taught such a stupid way of looking at religious history. The books and the teacher would talk about how the nature of the early church was decided upon by the great thinkers and philosophers of Christianity, how the religion was molded into its present form consciously, so that it would reflect the will of God and the needs of believers. I knew then and I know now that the reality was far more plausible- there were millions of people trying to make Christianity into a religion that reflected their worldviews, and over time the worldview that appealed to the most people, and that was designed to convert and keep the most people, won out by sheer volume.
I understand why this didn't happen with Judaism, and it has its root much farther back than Judaism as a religion.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Lisa, tend to think that the modern belief structure in any religion is a function of what allows that religion to survive and thrive. Judaism, unlike a cult religion like Christianity, was born out of a cultural and mythical heritage that predates the idea of Judaism as a religion.
I hear what you're saying, Orincoro, but you're mistaken. The interesting thing is, what you think is purely a personal belief. It's not based on anything but what you think about things. What I'm telling you is actually the case is what millions of Jews in every generation going back thousands of years knew to be the case. I'm not saying that because I sat around one day and thought, "Gee, this is what I think Judaism is." It's what I was taught by people who were taught by people who were taught by people, etc. and ad multiplum (or whatever the correct Latin would be) all the way back to Sinai.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: The whole idea of a religion in the modern sense is based on cult religions, not religions like Judaism, which evolved over much longer time periods.
You see evolution. I don't. Judaism is what it always was. It's been over 33 centuries since we stood at Sinai, and Judaism is the same thing now that it was then.
You may think that because we have toasters and TVs now, things are different. But they aren't. The same rules, and the same system by which the rules are applied, existed then and now.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: You say "no Orincoro," but your explanation agrees with my conclusions anyway. I'm sorry that I, as a non-Jew, would dare to try and explain what history might make modern Judaism what it is,
Oh, I don't care that you're a non-Jew. If you were a Jew who didn't have sufficient education in the Torah to qualify your statements as more than personal opinion, I'd say exactly the same thing. Ask Paul Goldner.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: but I also dislike the idea of members of the group denying the painfully obvious process involved in their history.
Feel free to dislike it all you like. I'm not responsible for your emotional responses.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Judaism didn't start as a "quality over quantity" religion, it started as a mythic heritage that turned into a religion over a very long time.
Nope. That just isn't the case, Orincoro. Maybe you've read a book that says it is, but then, that book is mistaken. Or maybe you gazed at your navel one day and the idea popped into your head. Either way, it's an interesting theory, but it's fiction.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I understand why this didn't happen with Judaism, and it has its root much farther back than Judaism as a religion.
There's no such thing as Judaism before it was a religion.
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To answer the OP's question, I suggest doing a lot more research about Judaism and the Noachide laws. Here's a good place to ask questions.
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Ya know, I remember asking the same question not to long ago, Joldo, in that thread that was linked. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what page it was, and I don't have time to look it up... anyway...
I ended up choosing Paganism(druidry in particular), but I do technically follow all of the Noachide laws(well, except the one about making idols- I pray to multiple gods and goddesses, but not physical depictions of those gods, so I'm not sure if that counts as "idols" or not.). I would suggest following the Noachide path first for a while, then if you still feel unfulfilled, start following a true Jewish path before converting. That way you don't get in over your head- Jews have a lot of laws to follow, and not everyone is able to follow them.
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The way I understand Jewish law, idols refers to praying to anyone/thing that isn't God. So I'd assume you'd be breaking it.
I'm taking a Jewish studies course this semester. I was thinking about starting a thread and posting my notes from the class in it, to see if the Orthodox Jews on hatrack had any comments. I've learned to be...careful about taking everything my professors tell me for granted. Would anyone be interested in that?
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Such classes are almost always from a fairly irreligious perspective. But sure, I'd be happy to answer questions and/or comment.
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I still think I'm right on the matrilineal question. What about the lost tribes?
Not only that, but I don't think any of you realize 1. How much mixing there has been between Europe and the Middle East, largely via trade routes and Muslim occupation of Spain/Eastern Europe, or 2.just how easy it would be for a few hundred women who managed to have at least a couple of daughters each and a handful of granddaughters each to manage to make us all matrilineally Jewish.
I am sure someone could show this mathematically. It would also be incredibly easy to figure this out, though. DNA testing of mitochodrial DNA would tell you all you need to know, am I right?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: There's no such thing as Judaism before it was a religion.
Well, even from the Orthodox standpoint, this is not entirely true. Unless we're supposing that the generations pre-Sinai were practicing the exact same thing as those post-Sinai. Some Midrashim would suggest as such; I think most authorities would disagree.
Possibly we're just disagreeing about what the term "religion" means.
Steven: you're missing the fact that matralineal descent is a binary; a handful of non-Jewish women would have the exact same effect of rendering people non-Jewish as your handful of Jewish women. (That is, if there was a non-Jewish woman anywhere along the line, all of her descendants will be non-Jewish.) Given that the number of Jewish women were a small fraction of the total number of non-Jewish women at the outset, it stands to reason that the latter group would have had the larger effect.
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Steven, the 10 tribes were probably assimilated into the surrounding culture seeing as they didn't even send one messenger during days of the Temple. The chances of them existing in Europe at exceedingly small.
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quote: I just want to point out that as I said before, if you don't go through the conversion process (which is often a multi-year process of learning), most Jews will not consider you Jewish.
That's what I'm looking at doing. I'm looking seriously at Judaism as a long-time commitment; I mean that I'm looking at it as something to which I would devote years of study before going through even the basic rites of conversion and so on.
This is more me testing the water. I'm trying to find out more about what those years would entail. I'm assuming I'd have to be Bar Mitzvahed, which would mean years of study of the Torah and so on. But I'm fuzzy on what all else there would be involved.
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Bar mitzvah is a state of being, not a process. (Noun, not a verb.) But yes, there would be years of study involved. And a fewother things.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: I'm assuming I'd have to be Bar Mitzvahed, which would mean years of study of the Torah and so on. But I'm fuzzy on what all else there would be involved.
"Bar Mitzvahed" is a myth. The term merely means that one is obligated in the commandments, which -- in the case of somebody of Jewish descent -- occurs at the onset of puberty. The accompanying party celebrating the same is nice, but has no ritual effect. (One is called up to the Torah at that point because it's the first time one can, no more, no less.)
...and, yes, this means the Simpsons got it wrong. One of my pet peeves.
Anyway, I'd definitely suggest looking into the Noahide Movement first.
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There's a huge difference between the matrilineal line and all ancestors/descendants.
You have 1024 ancestors in the 10th generation back, and only 1 matrilineal ancestor in the 10th generation back.
If you go back 20 generations, you have over a million ancestors and still only one matrilineal ancestor of that generation.
At 30 generations, you have a over a billion ancestors and still only one matrilineal ancestor of that generation.
This does assume there's no parent/child inbreeding, of course.
If you count descendants instead, it gets harder to due variable number of children.
Let's assume 2 children per couple who reproduce, each again with 2 children. Then, at the 30th generation, you would have the same over a billion number of descendents. If each child pair was one boy, one girl, you'd only have one matrilineal descendent. Of course, that's unrealistic.
Let's go with 4 children, 2 boys, 2 girls, per generation. At 10 generations, you'd have 1 million descendants. (4^10).
Assuming you're a woman, you'd have 1,024 matrilineal descendants. (2^10). Further, it's far easier to get "cut off" on the matrilineal line, because it can happen by having no children or only boys.
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quote:Originally posted by Chanie: Steven, the 10 tribes were probably assimilated into the surrounding culture seeing as they didn't even send one messenger during days of the Temple. The chances of them existing in Europe at exceedingly small.
Actually, a number of them did return while the First Temple was still standing.
But it's moot anyway, because if there's no way to know that someone is a Jew (DNA is irrelevant), then they aren't Jewish.
Remember, the legal parts of Judaism are laws, and as such, they have rules by which they are used. Rules regarding legal presumption, and rules regarding definitions in general.
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Yes, you're quite wrong on the matrilineal issue, steven. Its possible you're misunderstanding what matrilineal descent is, as opposed to having a female jewish ancestor (which is so near 100% in likelihood its almost not worth considering the possibility someone doesn't).
Matrilineal descent happens through one line. One break, and you're not matrilineally descended.
There is some point, if you go back far enough, where everybody has all or almost all of the people alive at that point as ancestors. One of those would be in your matrilineal line. However, that point is very far back -- as noted in the thread, likely well over 5000 years back -- and questions arise as to whether or not there were Jews at the point such an event would occur (I'm not sure I understand well enough to comment the point at which Judaism is considered to arise by Jewish tradition); whether or not that population stayed mostly separate long enough to keep it out of the matrilineal line for most humans (since the date was determined by modeling, and a sufficiently atypical population could invalidate the model); whether the earth existed (for those YECs among us, though that belief makes the question very different), et cetera.
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quote:Originally posted by Chanie: Steven, the 10 tribes were probably assimilated into the surrounding culture seeing as they didn't even send one messenger during days of the Temple. The chances of them existing in Europe at exceedingly small.
Actually, a number of them did return while the First Temple was still standing.
Ah, yeah, I was talking Second Temple. I was thinking of Rabbi Akiva saying that they wouldn't return because if they were still around, they would have returned sometime in the past 600 years.
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But I've sure someone else will be in soon to correct me, or you could bump the linked thread for a faster answer. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Also, I just realized we're probably not going to get any answers tonight, because, of course, it's the sabbath.
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