posted
I find amniocentesis done for the purpose of deciding whether to abort babies that *might* have defects very disturbing.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I can't imagine *any* instance under which I would abort a baby except, maybe, if I were certain to die otherwise. Even then it would be a hard choice. Any prenatal test I have done are to allow myself time to "get used" to the idea of health problems in a child. Same way I find out the sex of the child ahead of time so I can "get used" to the idea of it being a boy or girl.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I read recently that 80%-90% of couples who find out that their baby will have Down's Syndrome choose to abort. In Time magazine, I think. That was so disturbing to me. I know people who will argue that some people are just not equipped to care for a child that will have so many problems and special needs; but people are adaptable, and babies are not fruits to be picked over. Things like that get me all pro-choice-y.
posted
On one hand, I can kind of understand if the problems will cause the child a lot of pain and prevent him/her from having a good "quality of life," whatever that is. But then, how do you define that? I mean, some kids are going to be smarter at others or stronger or better at basketball or something. What if the parents define a high quality of life as having the potential to be able to dunk?
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Yes, and what if the space lizards invade us tomorrow? Seriously, pH, people are not that stupid.
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I wonder what they mean by quality of life anyway. Even if you are 100 precent healthy life will not be perfect for you... Life is hard no matter what. I just get a bit scared of the idea of people designing their children or something.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Yes, and what if the space lizards invade us tomorrow? Seriously, pH, people are not that stupid.
I realize that; it was a deliberate exaggeration.
The point is, I don't think people SHOULD be able to choose specific characteristics about their children. But I don't know whether that should apply to inherited disorders or pregnancy complications (which is what seems to have happened in this case).
quote: people are adaptable, and babies are not fruits to be picked over. Things like that get me all pro-choice-y.
That's weird. From the other things you were saying, I would have guessed that it was making you feel all pro-life-y.
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I know this is not politically correct, but this is one of the reasons that I think abortion should be legal. I recognize it as elitist and horrible, but I know that if I were in that position I would at least want the option. Taking care of a severely handicapped child is an extremely difficult, life long commitment. It stresses your finances, your emotions, your relationships, and everything else in your life far more than a normal kid. I applaud all those that take on this challenge. However I think it's understandable and forgivable when people choose otherwise.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I can kind of see both sides. But I think we do have to be careful not to make it so that parents are aborting babies willy-nilly because they didn't want a boy or something.
quote:Originally posted by pH: Amancer, that's why I'm torn.
I can kind of see both sides. But I think we do have to be careful not to make it so that parents are aborting babies willy-nilly because they didn't want a boy or something.
-pH
I agree with you man. Movies like Gatacca(sp?) make you think about what the world is coming to. Thank god for the Catholic Church and the Pro-Choice conflicts going on. At least that way the two powers can lobby the government and keep each other in check.
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quote: I think we do have to be careful not to make it so that parents are aborting babies willy-nilly because they didn't want a boy or something.
I agree with the sentiment but I don't think it's a huge concern. There are very few people who view abortion as a willy-nilly thing. I think most people see it as a life changing event. While they probably exist, I can't even imagine somebody being shallow enough to abort a baby because he or she is not the gender that they want.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:While they probably exist, I can't even imagine somebody being shallow enough to abort a baby because he or she is not the gender that they want.
Not only do they exist, but they exist in large numbers. It's pretty common to abort female fetuses in Korea (and in China too, I think, but I'm not positive) because the parents want a son, not a daughter.
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posted
Good point mph. Those are the countries that also restrict each family to one child only, correct? While still horrible and in my opinion unforgivable, I don't really think that's comparable to a US citizen doing the same thing.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:It's pretty common to abort female fetuses in Korea (and in China too, I think, but I'm not positive) because the parents want a son, not a daughter.
I hear tell that's it is even a bigger problem in China because of population controls, where the government offers incentives for only having one child.
In general, there are whole populations of fathers who consider girls useless deformed boys.
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quote:In general, there are whole populations of fathers who consider girls useless deformed boys.
And because of this, far more males are being born than females. This is even now starting to cause problems, as there are large groups of bachelors who have no hopes of ever finding a wife.
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posted
When my mother and I discuss the issue of abortion, she takes the stance that she would abort a child the doctor believed would be born severly-handicapped. She does not doubt that she would love the child and care for him or her just the same as she does for my brothers and I until the day her and my father pass away. But, she worries about putting that strain on her children once she's gone. While I reassure her that my siblings and I are very close and would sacrifice anything for one another, she never wanted use to take on the stress of a raising a severly-handicapped brother or sister in addition to our own new families.
I really don't know what I would do if I had to make such a choice. From a detached perspective I can recognize that people with various degrees of ability bring diversity into the world which teaches love and tolerance. Yet, I couldn't stand to see my child live a life of pain and loneliness. I just don't know.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
That reminds me of a conversation my old landlord had. He runs an orphanedge in Haiti and has adopted six children from Africa or India himself. Somebody said to him something along the lines of him "I don't want to adopt someone of another race -- it would cause all sorts of problems for them."
This angered my landlord and he said something like "While those kids are starving and dying of diseases down in Haiti, I'm sure that they'll really appreciate that you didn't want them to suffer social pains here in the United States."
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quote:Originally posted by romanylass: In India, also.
I find the idea of a "wrongful life" suit deplorable.
I do think that the woman in this case had a right to sue her doctors.
As to the "burden on the other children" thing, I've seen that in action. It can be really sad. On one hand, it's very touching that siblings are willing to make such sacrifices for one another. On the other hand...
posted
I personally didn't consider my disabled brother to be a "burden" ... or at least, whatever degree to which he was a burden was vastly outweighed by the pride and love I felt, having known him.
It would have been hard to take on his care if I had somehow been left as his sole guardian. But stuff like that happens all the time to people. What if your spouse gets MS? What if your own child loses a leg in a car accident? What if Shanna's mother became an invalid herself? Of course, her kids would take care of her. That's what family is supposed to do.
Really, that's one of the most ill-thought-out excuses I've heard to abort a child. I feel sorry for the disadvantaged children of the world who are deprived of siblings to care for because their parents didn't want to "burden" them with the responsibility of loved ones.
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quote:What if Shanna's mother became an invalid herself? Of course, her kids would take care of her. That's what family is supposed to do.
Sure; and if you could avoid such an event by a medical procedure that killed no-one, would you not do so? And if your doctors failed to warn you that such a thing might happen, would you not sue for malpractice?
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posted
The odd thing is I believe in rare abortions, but the idea of aborting someone because they will have down syndrome, or if they are able to detect autism or even homosexuality or some sort of minor difference that will make the child's life hard... It bothers me, as life really is hard no matter what. But, there are also those beautiful moments that a person would be deprived of if they were not born because of a "defect" or something.
But then, there is the perspective of a parent dealing with a child that is different. It's sad how back in early days a child like that would just be institutionalized. It's so sad not to have that family life they deserve regardless of whether or not they can walk or talk or their intelligence. I guess it's complicated and society with children making fun of anyone different doesn't really help.
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posted
Some children are a burden for some parents. It's one reason we have adoption institutions.
I'm scared to death of being tested, especially before I'm financially secure, of raising a child with a severe developmental disability. This fear isn't something to be proud of, but I do know that if I'm ever a father to be, I'm going to hope beyond hope for a healthy child because it does matter.
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quote:What if your spouse gets MS? What if your own child loses a leg in a car accident? What if Shanna's mother became an invalid herself? Of course, her kids would take care of her. That's what family is supposed to do.
Its kinda sad that's what's SUPPOSED to happen. I look at my dad's family and its sad because they haven't adjusted to family illnesses at all. My grandfather had Alzheimer's before he passed away and most of his children couldn't deal with flying in from out of town to see a father who didn't even know who they were. My uncle has MS and was confined to a wheelchair a few years ago. Now he's never invited to family events because his siblings feel "uncomfortable." My dad tries his best to spend time with him when he's in town but the exile has made my uncle bitter and confrontational.
I wonder if my grandmother ever considered the possibility that her children would act this way.
Its interesting to consider that how different children react to life-long challenges. Sometimes it drives them onto be stronger, sometimes they're destroyed and choose to commit suicide than live another day of torment. Its hard to determine quality of life.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I wonder if this wasn't something the lawyer suggested to drive up the settlement. It does sound as if the doctor was negligent, but since he didn't cause the syndrome, I doubt they would have gotten nearly as much without the "wrongful birth" charge.
As the mother of a micropreemie, I am shocked and appalled by this entire idea. We knew that Aerin would be born prematurely and the chances of her being normal were very slim. Not once did it occur to me to terminate the pregnancy - I knew her and I loved her already. There is a very strong bond between a mother and her unborn child. I've also worked at the Special Olympics and my best friend works with children with autism, so I know that babies born with disabilities can have meaningful lives (and how do you measure that anyway?). Was I scared? Of course - I was petrified. No one wants their child to be disabled. But your child is your child, no matter what. You get the same amount of joy from them, even if you get it in a different way than from a non-disabled child. You love them just as much. Aerin was a mess when she was born, I know that. But when I saw her for the first time, it was the most precious moment of my entire life and there is no way I can measure or describe the love I felt for her. I didn't see her as defective, I just saw my beautiful child.
I am also very upset about the legal termination date for New York. I had no idea it was 24 weeks. When I think of Aerin's two 23.5-week neighbors, I feel sick to my stomach. I can't fathom that it would have been legal to kill those little girls. I'm generally pro-choice, but a 24-weeker is a baby.
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posted
I do think the bit about 'meaningful lives' is misleading. As people have pointed out, there is no good definition of such a life. However, I think it is in any case a rationalisation of "I don't want to deal with this". And that is, I think, a perfectly acceptable reason for an abortion. Having a child is a major commitment; I do think it is reasonable not to want a mentally handicapped one.
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quote:However, I think it is in any case a rationalisation of "I don't want to deal with this".
I agree.
quote:And that is, I think, a perfectly acceptable reason for an abortion. Having a child is a major commitment; I do think it is reasonable not to want a mentally handicapped one.
Then they shouldn't get pregnant, because there is always a risk of that. In fact, a significant percentage of handicapped children became so due to trauma or injury during the birth. Knowing that, I chose to have a C-Section so that my 26-week daughter wouldn't have any trauma during her birth.
A child is a major committment, and so much more than that. If you aren't prepared to accept everything about your child, such as mental handicaps, then you aren't committed enough and shouldn't procreate at all.
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quote:Branca bled during her first trimester, a possible indication of birth defects, and at her midterm sonogram, when she was 20 weeks pregnant, her fetus looked smaller than it should have based on when her doctors originally presumed she conceived. Branca had not gained much weight, either, but her doctors — whom she is barred from identifying, by a legal settlement — saw no cause for alarm.
happened when I was pregnant with Ems. She is perfectly normal and healthy. I was told that most babies who are carried through such pregnancies are.
So I find the lawsuit rather annoying.
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quote:What if Shanna's mother became an invalid herself? Of course, her kids would take care of her. That's what family is supposed to do.
Sure; and if you could avoid such an event by a medical procedure that killed no-one, would you not do so? And if your doctors failed to warn you that such a thing might happen, would you not sue for malpractice?
That works if you don't believe that the unborn child is someone. For the other half of the country, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as an analogy. It's ironic to me that we're able to detect human diseases in these unborn fetuses, yet do not consider them to be human.
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quote:Somebody said to him something along the lines of him "I don't want to adopt someone of another race -- it would cause all sorts of problems for them."
This angered my landlord and he said something like "While those kids are starving and dying of diseases down in Haiti, I'm sure that they'll really appreciate that you didn't want them to suffer social pains here in the United States."
Great comeback. I have friends in our old church who went on a mission trip to Haiti to serve at the church's sponsored mission. They fell in love with a little girl there and worked to adopt her...found out she had an older brother and then worked to adopt him as well. It took the better part of year to accomplish, but they were able to bring their two children home. They are white and I don't think race ever entered their minds. It was just love. So now it's nearly 10 years later and the kids are just amazing.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
This is just too disturbing for me to even comment on right now. Mrs. M summed it up beautifully.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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quote:Then they shouldn't get pregnant, because there is always a risk of that. In fact, a significant percentage of handicapped children became so due to trauma or injury during the birth.
Sure, but I don't see the harm in minimising the risk. Really, it all comes back to the fundamental disagreement : If the embryo is not human, then you can arrange things for your own convenience without doing evil. If it is human, then you can't. And incidentally, since when are you qualified to judge whether other people can have children or not?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:And incidentally, since when are you qualified to judge whether other people can have children or not?
I never said anything about whether people can or cannot have children - I stated that people shouldn't have children if they're not prepared to accept whatever disabilities their children might have.
Also, there is a difference between a fetus and an embryo - a fairly significant one.
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posted
I shall certainly take your opinion on whether I should have children or not, deeply to heart. Just what is your problem with trying to minimise the risk of having a handicapped child?
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quote:Just what is your problem with trying to minimise the risk of having a handicapped child?
I don't understand what you mean. Are you referring to abortion as a means to minimize the risk of having a handicapped child?
BTW, I am all for minimizing the risk of having a handicapped child. My husband and I had genetic testing before we conceived to make sure that we weren't carriers of any of the Jewish genetic diseases or any others. And, as I mentioned earlier, I had a C-Section to ensure that my daughter wouldn't have any trauma at birth.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Just what is your problem with trying to minimise the risk of having a handicapped child?
I can't speak for Mrs. M, but for myself: if I became pregnant with a handicapped child, then I already have a handicapped child; there's no risk to minimize once it's already happened.
To "minimize the risks of having one," I would have to do whatever was in my power to not conceive one, and to care for myself while I'm pregnant. Once I'm pregnant, though, the child is mine and it's my duty to take care of them - whoever and however they are.
Back to that fundamental difference of opinion, I guess.
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posted
I'm generally pro-choice, but the idea of aborting after four/five months of pregnancy is a big no-no for me. After four/five months we're speaking about babies, not foetuses - and that's why I'm profoundly shocked at the idea to abort because of a disease the baby may have, because you quasi never find that out before four months. My baby may suffer, may die early, but he will live his life loved by his parents. Doing otherwise is, for me, only not wanting to bother yourself - you're certainly not doing this for the baby.
quote:I do think it is reasonable not to want a mentally handicapped one.
I find it appaling how our societies can't accept any risk as normal. For g-d's sake, life is risky, it's only natural! If you don't want a disable baby, than you don't want a baby at all. It's already settled between hubby and I. If we make the choice to procreate, we accept the risk.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Then again, there are babies with defects that would cause them to die within a year of birth. My friend whose baby died at 1 month before its due date, experienced this. Her daughter had trisomy 18. The effects of this genetic defect are so severe that most babies with it are miscarried. The ones that survive birth usually die by their first birthday. The trisomy screws up so many body systems that their short little lives are basically a continuous ordeal of expensive medical treatments that merely prolong the inevitable. Would it be right to abort a baby that is carrying a death sentence in its genes? I know that in my girlfriend's case (had she known and made the decision not to carry the pregnancy to full term and deliver a dead baby), an abortion might have saved her and her family a lot of agony. I don't know, it's a hard thing. In most cases, I am very against abortions. But Trisomy 18, while rare, casts a lot of shadows on the blanket "Abortion is wrong and I'd never do it" statement.
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posted
Also if you really can't deal with disability (I can't imagine a circumstance where it would be possible, but still) than you can still keep the baby until birth and give it to adoption after. But denying him the chance to live...
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I have friends in our old church who went on a mission trip to Haiti to serve at the church's sponsored mission. They fell in love with a little girl there and worked to adopt her...found out she had an older brother and then worked to adopt him as well. It took the better part of year to accomplish, but they were able to bring their two children home. They are white and I don't think race ever entered their minds. It was just love. So now it's nearly 10 years later and the kids are just amazing.
