posted
So I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he mentioned he had an idea for outsourcing prisons to Mexico.
My initial reaction was one of "OUTSOURCING? NO!!!!!!!!!" but the more we talked about it the more attractive the idea sounded. From what I understand, we already let people go early simply to make room for more prisoners. And it's simply too expensive to buid more prisons in the US. State and Federal budgets are overloaded already.
So we build a huge complex south of the boarder where it's cheap, hire our own nationals to run it, but locals to be the regular guards. Mexico gets an influx of cash and jobs, we get a smaller tax burden for our citizens along with safer streets... Then we ship people with 10+ years to go down there.
The obvious problem with this (aside from "OUTSOURCING!") is, how do we deal with escapees. We would need some sort of treatee with Mexico that allowed us to arrest our nationals on their soil (is there one already? Don't criminals always try to escape to Mexico?) and maybe we could put GPS locators under their skin (to make it difficult to remove) so we could locate them with minimum disruption to the local citizens.
I realize this topic is going to be contencious... but what do you guys think?
posted
Sorry, but I think it is a bad idea. We already have prisons off of American soil so that we can subject the detainees to conditions not acceptable in the US. I can see the logic of it in wartime--tho is scares me.
If we start having regular prisons outsourced, I would be very skeptical of either governments ability/willingness to make sure unconstitutional abuses do not take place.
I could imagine a nightmare scenario where the government targets someone and gets him/her shipped off to an outsourced jail.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
and do not forget. Prisoners are still human beings. Humans need support, no matter how awful of a crime they commited. Currently, we allow prisoners to be visited by friends and family. Moving them to Mexico would disrupt this support.
posted
My first thought is that overflowing prisons is a symptom of a deeper problem. Sure, we can spend more and more money to treat the symptoms, but why not work on the cure?
Dostoyevsky claimed that the degree of civilization of a society can be measured by the treatment of its prisoners. I'm firmly convinced that the number of prisoners in our system, and their treatment during and after release is reflective of us as a society. It's not a pretty reflection.
I think there's got to be some sort of legal (or at least ethical) problem for essentially deporting American citizens for typical crimes. Families and lawyers have to have a passport and travel to Mexico to visit someone in prison? What if it was your little brother? Would you want him to be in a prison in Mexico at the mercy of Mexican guards?
Also, why would Mexico want to import our dangerous or mentally ill criminals? We have a large federal deficit, why not build a prison in your backyard to house Honduran criminals and raise some extra cash for the US government?
Would Mexico want responsibility for tracking our criminals? Would they want to give up some of their sovernity to have U.S. law enforcement on their soil? I guess it makes it easier if we tag the prisons like deer to track their movements.
I'm sorry I got so worked up about it, but I find the whole notion to be arrogant, callous, and ignorant to be honest.
Edit: Sorry for the slow typing, when I started there were no other posts, so some of my material is repeatitive.
posted
i think that in general it would be a bad idea, mainly for the reason that Iem stated. More than that i would take objection with the implanted GPS devise. that just opens up too many doors that need to remain closed. ankle bracelet tracking devices would do just fine.
i think a better solution to overpopulation in prisons would be to quit sending people to prison for nonviolent crimes. instead use intense community service and heavier fines. also, it would help a lot if drug related charges were dropped.
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posted
I think a better idea would be to reexamine the drug laws. I wonder how many people are in jail for possession.
If we made pot legal (and possibly other drugs) but made sentences harsher for crimes committed while on drugs.
Because so many crimes are committed while on drugs, I think the harsher sentence would serve as just an effective deterrent to drugs as the current system. It would also free up room by letting all the unmotivated potheads back in society.
Or, if society doesn't like making drugs legal, we could at least make it so that possession in not a jailable offense.
Come to think of it, I don't know how the prison system works. I am unsure of all the difference of jails and prisons. Do we have statistics on who is filling up our system?
EDIT:
quote: i think a better solution to overpopulation in prisons would be to quit sending people to prison for nonviolent crimes. instead use intense community service and heavier fines. also, it would help a lot if drug related charges were dropped.
vonk beat me to it!
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Personally I'm opposed to legalization; but according to Zogby I'm in the minority (at least for my geographic area).
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You guys have a very wrong impression of Mexican prisons*. In some ways, they are more humane than those in the US : in many ways if the prisoner has someone outside willing to send in even a small amount of money (and no, not for bribes).
The question is, would Americans be treated on an equal basis with Mexicans? If so, I could see many American prisoners opting to spend their time in Mexico if given the choice. And it should be only by the prisoner's choice: ie the sentencing judge can offer the option, but can't impose it or pressure the prisoner into accepting it.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
As a Mexican, I'm sure we don't want American prisons in Mexico. That would feel like taking in the trash to me and most Mexicans. We don't need the prisons, sorry, but no. Yeah, it could create jobs for people who want to work in prisons and everything, but Mexico would also be taking a big risk. What if a prisoner were to escape? What if there was a major prison break? Besides, Mexico barely has enough space for their own prisoners as it is.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The person would be build by America on Mexican soil. Mexico would simply be a venue. The prisoners would not be part of the mexican penal system.
The people running the place would be Americans. The guards would be Mexicans.
And it wouldn't HAVE to be Mexico. It COULD be Canada but the savings wouldn't be as great.
No passport is required to visit Mexico or Canada.
quote:According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College London, the U.S. currently has the largest documented prison population in the world, both in absolute and proportional terms. We've got roughly 2.03 million people behind bars, or 701 per 100,000 population. China has the second-largest number of prisoners (1.51 million, for a rate of 117 per 100,000), and Russia has the second-highest rate (606 per 100,000, for a total of 865,000).
We can't even control the prisons we have in this country, why would we want to outsource. If you're reading this thread, you should take a look at the Prison Conditions report on the United States. I think it would be hard to support the idea that these are actually 'correctional' facilities.
Our justice system is simply punativly based. The fact that most people don't have a problem with sending a person to prison to be raped, probably given STDs in the process , beaten by guards, beaten by inmates, etc. A 14 month DOJ study into a certain prison said the jail had an "institutional culture that supports and promotes abuses." The documented abuses included brutal beatings by officers and officers paying inmates to beat other inmates.
You know maybe aspectre is right. Maybe some of these people would be glad to take Mexico.
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1.) For anyone not in for life, the visiting issue is huge. There is high correlation between number of visits throughout incarceration and successful reintegration. I'm not sure how constant that is across length of sentence, though.
2.) Sovereignty. We shouldn't have a prison where we aren't sovereign, for the protection of both prisoners and prison workers.
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posted
Someone in the thread made the comment about more community service and fines, less jail time.
I think community service is a great idea for many types of offenses, such as most non-violent offenses. Rather than be a drain on the resources of the community and nation, offenders could instead be a contributor. It also seems a lot more humane. In addition to community service, some sort of counseling or rehab could be required.
I don't know about the fines though. If they were fair and consistant I would agree with them. What I mean is that a rich person is charged more than a poor person-a $50,000 fine might be nothing to a white collar worker, but a lifetime obligation for someone who works at McDonalds for a living. Also, some of our fines are silly. If you shoplift a DVD to get a free movie it's a max $5000 fine. If you copy a DVD it's a $250,000 fine. That just blows my mind. To me they are the same crime, except the shoplifting one you've actually taken physical goods as well.
Dag- do you have any data on community service (even if just anecdotal? I'm interested in whether it works better, worse, or the same as incarceration in regards to rehabilitation.
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posted
wow, i never thought to compare the shoplifting and pirating fines. that is crazy.
and i don't know about rehab and counseling. those only work if you want to change, if your forced they don't work at all. i've been in a couple of different out patient rehab centers (forcably) and they didn't help at all. i just figured out the right answer and said what they wanted to hear until i got out. then i went back to doing what i wanted to do. but it might work, if the rehab centers got a whole heck of a lot better than they are.
but the more i think about it, the more i like the extensive community service for non-violent crimes. i mean, you could make it at least as severe as prison. make them spend 8 - 12 hours doing sanitation work (not that sanitation work is punishment and not a respectable job) or working in old folks homes or doing construction on public facilities. it would end up saving the government money, instead of costing money to support them in jail. hmm, who do i write a letter to about this?
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posted
Wouldn't we look bad in the international arena?
"Those depraved Americans, they have so many criminals that they don't have room for that they are putting them in other countries now."
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Theaca- Read the link I posted above Prison Confinement. We already do look bad in the international arena. The federal system and the systems in at least 22 states are at 100% or higher capacity.
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quote:I think community service is a great idea for many types of offenses, such as most non-violent offenses. Rather than be a drain on the resources of the community and nation, offenders could instead be a contributor. It also seems a lot more humane. In addition to community service, some sort of counseling or rehab could be required.
I don't know about the fines though. If they were fair and consistant I would agree with them. What I mean is that a rich person is charged more than a poor person-a $50,000 fine might be nothing to a white collar worker, but a lifetime obligation for someone who works at McDonalds for a living. Also, some of our fines are silly. If you shoplift a DVD to get a free movie it's a max $5000 fine. If you copy a DVD it's a $250,000 fine. That just blows my mind. To me they are the same crime, except the shoplifting one you've actually taken physical goods as well.
The problem with community service and probation is that there must be a backup punishment for those who don't comply, and I can't think of anything besides jail for that.
And a LOT of the time being served for minor crimes is suspended time being reimposed for probation violations.
As for community service, the courts I'm in don't use it much for some reason. Lots of probation, though.
Edit: Probation includes rehab, too. I can't speak to the quality of the rehab, but the same need for an underlying meta punishment for those who violate rehab conditions is there.
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