posted
I need to know the when and why of the differences and usage of these terms.
This is why:
quote:Pinky said, “I’m honest, Lean Bean. I may be a layabout, and a sometimes drunkard…”
“Probably oughn’t mention those things either,” Papa murmured.
“…but I’m honest. That’s the difference betwixt your Beecham fellow and myself.”
“’Betwixt.’ Listen to you. Or should I say ‘thou? Listen to thou.’” Papa poured himself another cup of tea.
Lisk piped up automatically, “You say, ‘thee,’ Papa.”
Papa scowled at him. “You shouldn’t say anything, young man, when your elders are talking.” But he said it half into his cup, so Lisk didn’t think he was serious.
“Pinky isn’t my elder. And anyway, my forty-nights is next week. I’m practically a man already.”
“Man already are you? Well, then, get thee to thine work, o man. That fence won’t build itself.”
posted
I think you need a Quaker for help in this area -- or, pick up a copy of Christy for some pointers in thee-ing and thou-ing and thin-ing -
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I just googled your subject header; there were lots of other examples. Is that a passage you are writing? Looks to me like the usage is correct, except where the father makes his mistakes. "Thine work" should be "thy work," but I assume that was intentional.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Thou = second person singular, subject. Thee = second person singular, object. Thy = second person singular, genitive. Thine = second person singular, absolute genitive.
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"Thou see the stars, Mother?" "Yes, dear. And I see thee as well." "Do thy eyes still trouble thee, then?" "No, not so much. And thine?"
Some Quakers use "thee" incorrectly, as both a subject and an object. In that case, the first sentence would read "Thee see the stars" or even "See thee the stars." But that's a fairly rare usage.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I thought the third line would read "Do thine eyes still trouble thee, then?" due to the following word, "eyes," beginning with a vowel.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I'm a little vague on whether you'd use "thine" in that case. There's a lot of prior art which suggests that "thine" and "mine" are often used to avoid the vowel collision, but I'm not sure they're actually used CORRECTLY. I used that example specifically because I hoped for more input on that one, since it's the main question I have. Everything I see indicates that "thine" is an absolute genitive, and my understanding of that case (which comes from Greek, so it may not be correct in English) is that you wouldn't use it there.
We need Jon Boy on that one. *grin*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Only if you're also using old verb forms as well. (Of course, it sounds weird to my ear to NOT use them, but I don't think they're technically required.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think "did thou" and "dost thou" are actually two different tenses. *laugh* And so's "seest thou the stars," I believe.
That said, my understanding of the form is that "Dost thou see the stars" or "Seest thou the stars" would both be correct, depending on meaning.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yep. It's "do-est." Most second-person singular verbs add "est" to the end. There are a few irregulars, like "is" -- which conjugates to "art" in the second-person singular -- but most of 'em fit that form.
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posted
Yes, you're both right, I do believe, my bad. Dost thou would be the same as do thou (do you) or seest thou . . . "Did thou" would be the "Didst thou."
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Only if you're also using old verb forms as well. (Of course, it sounds weird to my ear to NOT use them, but I don't think they're technically required.)
Actually, I would say they ARE technically required. Saying "Thou see" is just as incorrect as saying "he see."
I know that thine and mine are often, if not always, used before a vowel in the KJV. They are the original forms, and the versions without the ns appeared later, so if it's inconsistent in the KJV, it's probably because they were in the process of dropping the ns for all uses of the possessive adjectives.
Thou was already going out when Tyndale translated the Bible into English, but he used it consistently to translate Hebrew or Greek second person singular pronouns, and ye for the plura. Wikipedia says he may have prolonged its life a while longer.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: That said, my understanding of the form is that "Dost thou see the stars" or "Seest thou the stars" would both be correct, depending on meaning.
The first is not technically incorrect, but it was rare before the 1500s, by which point forms of thou were in decline. While thou was still in use, it was by far more common to invert the verb as in the second sentence.
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quote:Interstingly enough Mormons are taught to pray using those words as a form of respect rather than referring to god as "you" or "your"
I think I do pretty well using thee, thou, thine, thy; I mean, I know instinctively when to use them. But I needed the technical explanation that Tom provided.
quote:Is that a passage you are writing?
It's part of my novel.
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I used that example specifically because I hoped for more input on that one, since it's the main question I have. Everything I see indicates that "thine" is an absolute genitive, and my understanding of that case (which comes from Greek, so it may not be correct in English) is that you wouldn't use it there.
