11 countries and the ICRC have been keeping these records intact mainly for people hoping to discover the fate of missing relatives. Now, 60 years after the war, the documents may be made public.
quote:The Nazis recorded everything; from the number of lice on a prisoner's head to the exact moment of execution.
The record contains 17 million names.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you for posting that. I have never known where to start searching for info on my great-grandparents. My grandfather came over in the mid to late 30's for an international soccer tournament, and he got a letter from them begging him to stay. That was the last he heard from them.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, records can be faked, and if you check the archives you will see that at least three names are repeated, so therefore the '17 million' must actually be around a few hundred thousand; and besides, it's all a conspiracy by the Zionist Jewish world leadership to make Israel look good. And incidentally, there's no intermediate forms for the human eye.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
And as a Jew who has been left out of the World Zionist/Jewish Conspiracy and all the banking and media goodies, I want my share, dammit! I mean, what's the good of living under a Zionist Occupation Government if you don't even get a cut? I ask you.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
" 'Click to Sign Up' button. What's that about?"
Lightning bolts fly from your computer screen to give ya the mandatory bris sose ya can join the InternationalJewishConspiracy. It won't work for you, starLisa. Women don't need a bris -- ie they're all born into the IJC -- which is why Holocaust deniers are almost exclusively men.
The real question is: who were those eleven governments and the ICRC protecting by keeping victims' names secret? Since the InternationalCommittee of the RedCross is involved, I'd start my list of suspects with Swiss banks looting the accounts of Holocaust victims by withholding information from Holocaust survivors and next-of-kin. I very much doubt that other nations' banks were meaningfully more forthcoming about wealth owed to heirs. Then there is all the real estate/property owned by Holocaust victims, then confiscated and now illegally held by non-heirs.
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: And incidentally, there's no intermediate forms for the human eye.
Hehe, KoM. Subtly bringing re-education doctrine to your screen since 2005
Actually, I signed up in 2004. And holocaust denial has the same level of credibility as evolution denial.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Less credibility. The Theory of Evolutionary was founded on interpretations of prehistoric evidence. The Shoah is a comparatively recent event of still living memory.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
And which would you rather have, plague or cholera? However, we can watch evolution happening today, both in the lab and in the wild, while the Holocaust depends on those (now dying out) living memories, and on the historical record. You can do an actual experiment to test evolution, this is not true of the Holocaust.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Its just like anything else that some people deny. You could throw evidence at me all day long that China exists, but unless I actually go there, there could always be some doubt.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Darfur is proof that genocides can happen, certainly. It does not prove that the specific genocide we refer to the Holocaust happened. On the other hand it is a splendid proof of evolution : It plainly selects for not living in Africa.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Umm...Stephan, I went to "China" once. In reality it was all a big hoax. Yeah, the people looked "Chinese" and spoke "Chinese." But then I overheard one of them switching into flawless English! Not only that, I once pretended to fall asleep, and overhead them saying "Can we take the masks off?" "Yeah. About time -- I'm getting hot!"
And then I snuck a peek. They were Australians.
China is an Austrlian prank.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Phanto: Umm...Stephan, I went to "China" once. In reality it was all a big hoax. Yeah, the people looked "Chinese" and spoke "Chinese." But then I overheard one of them switching into flawless English! Not only that, I once pretended to fall asleep, and overhead them saying "Can we take the masks off?" "Yeah. About time -- I'm getting hot!"
posted
I'm just glad I'm Mormon. Since we're obviously not Christians, the Jews won't want my babies' blood to make matzos.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I'm just glad I'm Mormon. Since we're obviously not Christians, the Jews won't want my babies' blood to make matzos.
Don't you worry about that. I'm pretty sure most Jews would agree disagree with that statement. Do you have any babies?
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
The many firsthand survivors, the countless miles of film footage, the moutains of photographs, the witness of many assorted and varied Allied troops, the witness of many assorted civilians, the witness of many Nazi soldiers, the nearly 50 million documents of the Nazi's actions, the countless mass graves with starved bodies stacked like cordwood, and that fact that you can still go to these places and see them, all add up to it being completely false.
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I'm just glad I'm Mormon. Since we're obviously not Christians, the Jews won't want my babies' blood to make matzos.
You know, I've heard it argued that the Mormon church could actually be considered a Christian faith.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think there are some authorities who are lenient about that, KQ. Plain old gentile blood might be okay.
But, But, Jews are gentiles, if you are a Mormon!
I realize this is a joke, but I have never in my life heard someone refer to all non-Mormons as gentiles.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
Australia is a british prank. And I might add, a really nasty one.
You know all those criminals they put on boats and sent over to the other side of the earth to a place called (snort) "Australia?"
You didn't really believe that such a place exists do you? I mean, why did they take them there in boats? (splash)
But there are some people who just refuse to believe the truth. They insist that Australia actually exists. After all, no one could be that evil.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have heard urban Mormon legends about Jews being called "gentiles". But they're always "my brother's roomate at BYU told him that someone in his hometown..." kinda stories, and so really lack credibility.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: No joke. There's even a semi-regular on this forum who is one of them ["Holocaust deniers"]. He posts as "nato".
StarLisa, please stop. I have never denied that the holocaust exists. In fact, I am quite sure that terrible atrocities did occur at the hands of the Nazis. I have on a couple occasions linked to several essays and news stories written by other people pointing out that organizations such as the International Red Cross have revised their estimates of the number of holocaust dead downward over the years, and we are not absolutely sure of what happened in the Nazi camps.
I hope the release of these records helps clear a lot of the facts up. The holocaust was a terrible, terrible event, and I feel that the main point of remembering it today is to make sure another event like it never has a chance to happen. I feel that something similar occurred in Rwanda in the mid-90s and that something similar is occuring today in Sudan. I view all massacres of innocent peoples as terrible and preventable tragedies, and I think preventing them should be a high priority for many of the governments of the world.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
It's too bad the only evidence we have of it are some plaster footprint casts and a few bits of matted hair.
-----------
I went to "China" once when I was a little kid, and was terribly traumatized when I saw some of the "Chinese" take off their heads*! I followed them around the corner and lo and behold...the moon landing set!
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: No joke. There's even a semi-regular on this forum who is one of them ["Holocaust deniers"]. He posts as "nato".
StarLisa, please stop. I have never denied that the holocaust exists. In fact, I am quite sure that terrible atrocities did occur at the hands of the Nazis. I have on a couple occasions linked to several essays and news stories written by other people pointing out that organizations such as the International Red Cross have revised their estimates of the number of holocaust dead downward over the years, and we are not absolutely sure of what happened in the Nazi camps.
I hope the release of these records helps clear a lot of the facts up. The holocaust was a terrible, terrible event, and I feel that the main point of remembering it today is to make sure another event like it never has a chance to happen. I feel that something similar occurred in Rwanda in the mid-90s and that something similar is occuring today in Sudan. I view all massacres of innocent peoples as terrible and preventable tragedies, and I think preventing them should be a high priority for many of the governments of the world.
posted
Scott, I have. And weaseling is exactly what he was doing. What the deniers do (except for the most extreme) is say, "Oh, I don't deny the Holocaust happened. But the numbers involved have been adjusted and adjusted and the whole six million thing has been completely disproven, and oh, right, there's killing all over the place that's just as bad as what happened during WWII."
They usually wind up claiming that there were maybe a couple hundred thousand people who died, most of whom died of diseases. They compare two warring populations, one of which behaves barbarically and genocidally, to separating out a specific ethnic group and methodically processing them for extermination.
They aren't as stupid as they once were. They know that sane people see them for the scum that they are, so only the most lunatic among claim that nothing at all happened.
Do I have to go through nato's old posts and show you what he is?
Start here. Read through that thread. Don't skip this one. He quotes Rense.com, which is well known for Holocaust denial.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Please remember that I never posted anything calling into question the number of people murdered by the Nazis.
In fact, my statement has NOTHING to do with the the Holocaust. Instead, it addresses the fact that you behaved poorly because you don't like someone's opinion.
posted
Lisa, it does sort of make you look bad. I agree with you on this topic probably 99.9% of the time. However those that wish to deny the events took place, underestimate them, or even just say they want to "expose the truth" generally know that most Jews will lose their temper rather quickly. That is the worst thing we can do, it gives them legitamacy.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Oh, I don't deny the Holocaust happened. But the numbers involved have been adjusted and adjusted and the whole six million thing has been completely disproven, and oh, right, there's killing all over the place that's just as bad as what happened during WWII.
Does it matter, Lisa? Is there really some cachet involved in being tied by race or belief to the worst massacre in human memory, as opposed to, say, the second-worst? Or can we just all agree that it's bad to kill lots of people in horrible ways? When you're reduced to railing against "deniers" who concede that the Holocaust happened and agree that it was immoral, but want to quibble with you over the numbers, you've pretty clearly won the larger argument.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, many Mormons did refer to all nom-mormons as gentiles up until modern times. For references you might check the autobiography of Maurice Warshaw, "Life more sweet than bitter", at one time that was billed as "the rest of the story" for Fiddler on the Roof. Also, Maurice Abravanel, long time conductor of the Utah Symphony Orchestra mentions in his memors the confusion he had moving to SLC(His Rabbi is reported to have exclaimed "My God Maurice, thats west of Denver" when he took the job.) and being identified as a gentile. Neither of these gentlemen was ever my brother's roommate.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm still curious why questioning the number of people murdered by the Nazis is something for which someone might be expected to feel guilty.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Oh, I don't deny the Holocaust happened. But the numbers involved have been adjusted and adjusted and the whole six million thing has been completely disproven, and oh, right, there's killing all over the place that's just as bad as what happened during WWII.
Does it matter, Lisa? Is there really some cachet involved in being tied by race or belief to the worst massacre in human memory, as opposed to, say, the second-worst? Or can we just all agree that it's bad to kill lots of people in horrible ways? When you're reduced to railing against "deniers" who concede that the Holocaust happened and agree that it was immoral, but want to quibble with you over the numbers, you've pretty clearly won the larger argument.
Tom, they start by pushing the numbers down (in dishonest ways, mind you), and continue on to their main point, which is that there was no deliberate attempt at extermination. That maybe a few hundred thousand people died because they got sick while in work camps.
That's the issue. I don't care if they say there were 12 million Jews who died in the Holocaust. The issue isn't the numbers; it's the reason they keep trying to downplay the numbers. It's the basic denial that there was ever a planned and methodical attempt to kill us all. And that does matter.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'm still curious why questioning the number of people murdered by the Nazis is something for which someone might be expected to feel guilty.
I've answered that.
Hell, Tom, I question the numbers, too. The six million figure comes from Nazi records, and they counted anyone with a single Jewish grandparent as Jewish. So from a religious point of view, I also have a problem with the six million figure. But there's no question but that they killed six million people they thought were Jewish.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
And Nato, as far as I can tell, freely concedes the existence of a methodical attempt to kill Jews (if not all Jews) and openly agrees that the massacre was immoral. He's not doing what you're accusing "deniers" of seeking to do.
I'm not sure that the best way to make this point is to try to throw up a firewall in front of some disputed number. The battle worth fighting is the acknowledgement that the planned incarceration and extermination of a people is unforgivably evil; everything else is gloss.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nato, might I ask you a few questions to hopefully get your stance straightened out?
1. Do you agree that Nazi Germany's central government set up and executed a plan to systematically murder Jews and other undesirables?
2. Why does it matter to you whether or not 1.5 million or 4 million were killed at Auschwitz? (as posed to Lisa in reverse)
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: And Nato, as far as I can tell, freely concedes the existence of a methodical attempt to kill Jews (if not all Jews) and openly agrees that the massacre was immoral. He's not doing what you're accusing "deniers" of seeking to do.
I disagree. And in fact, the link that he provide in this post includes:
quote:Auschwitz is central to the Holocaust legend.
quote:Working side by side with inmate staff, Christophersen saw, firsthand, day-to-day life at Auschwitz and, in postwar years, was astounded to hear the stories of "gassings" and all the tall tales that we today associate with Auschwitz.
quote:Although we have been told Zyklon B was used to gas millions of Jews to death, Lindsey shows that the compound was used as an insecticide and disinfectant to delouse not only the Auschwitz inmates but also SS members running the camp and to fumigate their clothes, bunkhouses etc. Zyklon B, in short, was used to maintain and sustain human life-not to end it.
And the guy who wrote the page Nato linked to also claims not to be a Holocaust denier. Spare me.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And holocaust denial has the same level of credibility as evolution denial.
