Whoa. I don't really know what to say about this, but I was a bit surprised I hadn't seen anything about it recently on Hatrack. I also know there are some Hatrackers whose primary source of news is, well, here.
I'm not a moderator, but I think it would be decent if this thread, assuming it lasts, does not degenerate into flaming and bitterly rude rhetoric.
posted
Discussions about these kind of topics do have a way of turning into unintelligent shouting matches.
I personally think Israel is overreacting. All this started with the abduction of two military men. This kind of response isn't likely to improve the situation of the hostages. So, if their fate is foremost in the mind of the Israeli government, I'd suggest they try and reason with their opponents in stead of just blasting them to bits.
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posted
Rakeesh, I think people may have just felt a little burned out on Israel in regards to some of the earlier threads this week.
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Eduardo, if you believe this is only about the abduction of two soldiers, I think you're seriously mistaken.
If the only consideration would be what is best for the hostages, then obviously the correct course of action would be to submit to their captor's demands immediately to secure their freedom. Clearly, this cannot be done by Israel.
But I am sad because of both the new kidnappings and Israel's opening a new front in a widening war.
One tactic Hezbollah might adopt would be to continue capturing IDF soldiers, in raids over the Israeli borders with Syria, Jordan, Egypt. . .
Would Israel go to war against all it's neighbors? It has before, against various Arab alliances. edit to add: Or the alliances have gone to war against Israel.
That is a scary prospect, for Arabs, Israelis and the rest of us. I hope the violence can be resolved before too much more happens.
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posted
Could be on the brink of WWIII with everything in the world on a short fuse. Between North Korea, Iran, and now this added in. It certainly wouldn’t take much.
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posted
A proper world war needs at least two Great Powers, one on each side. Israel doesn't qualify.
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the concensus (i.e. UN and other nations) right now seems to be that the Lebanese governement needs to get the Hezbollah military under control, and that Israel is completely overreacting in its retaliation (there is a difference between self defense and disproportionate retaliation)
the only real side to take here is that this senseless violence needs to stop, both from Hezbollah and from Israel, and that Lebanon needs to get off its ass and do something about the militant wing of Hezbollah (because I think that the political wing is important in order that everyone is represented in Lebanese parliament)
can we not all agree on that?
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posted
I wish Israel had taken to something a bit more covert than airstrikes. But I get the feeling that the Israelis are feeling very put upon right now, and a smashing show of force might be what they feel they need to send a message to other governments in the area: "Hey-- don't eff with us. We'll effing bomb you."
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posted
Israel has a right to defend itself, but only through reasonable means. Enganging in what is essentially open war with a neighboring country over the kidnapping of two men by terrorists is an overreaction, especially given it is not clear to what degree the government of Lebanon can control Hezbollah. The message it sends to terrorist groups is that they can start a war if they successfully abduct Israeli soldiers.
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posted
It is sad. I am proud that Israel is standing up for its right to be... This is when the rest of the Muslim world will try to dog-pile Israel and our wisdom in neutralizing two and locating strategically in the midst of all of the Muslim Countries will pay dividends.
Peace is what you have when your enemy is destroyed, or so Islam, the Religion of Peace teaches. Once they are penniless beggars in your midst who have accepted the Koran, then they can be treated with some mercy.
The sheer numbers of Muslims involved, the density of their population is something that we in America have little grasp of, you cannot swing a cat in the populated centers of the Middle East without knocking over three people, I am for that reason amazed at the low body count from the Israeli retaliation. It speaks of a surgical precision that even we should envy. One misplaced bomb in Beirut will kill a thousand people easily.
This is the potential for atrocity, the attempt to create reasons for the West to abandon and isolate Israel that we must be aware of. The provocations against Israel are meant to create facts for the opposition, the Jihad against Israel is the goal, it is not enough that we let Israel handle its problems as they see fit, we must go there now and stand shoulder to shoulder with them, accepting responsibility with them as things escalate and sending a clear message to Islam that America is fully committed in the fight to protect Israel.
I hope that those who will cry that Israel has overreacted will be the minority, because this is just the first round and it not good to start the fight with a great deal of hysterical hand waving and jumping about. We need to prepare ourselves for the commitment it will take to end the dream and hope of Islam to bind the world under one doctrine that makes them masters and us slaves.
posted
Isreal's decisive and measured response reenforces my long-standing respect and admiration for that country and its military. Hezbollah and Hamas share the blame for every ounce of blood shed during this conflict. They knew, or should have known, how Isreal was going to respond, but terrorists rarely care about hurting their own.
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posted
I'm Israeli, so I think I aware to the situation a little bit more: Maybe you are not aware that: In the years of 2002-2006 over 600 Qassam rockets fell on Israeli territory, (launched by Hamas). Thats the backround. Its all began 2 weeks ago, when Hamas kidnaped an israeli soldier. (another citizen was kidnaped and got killed) The diplomacy for release the soldier didn't work, and thats why the Israeli armi started the attack on Gaza. Few days later the Hamas launched for the first time a qassam rocket on the city Ashkelon, which practically made all the situation worst. The city Sderot suffered from dozens of rockets in the last few weeks. Yesterday 2 soldiers was capture and 3 got killed in an ISRAELI territory by the Hezbollah , and they launched over 90 Katyusha rockets (wich are a lot better from the Qassam). Be added to all the terrorist attacks, the threats, this situation is unaccepted. You got to understand Israel can't sit still while all this cities an citizens get hurted by the rockets. I am really sorry about all the kills in the Arabic side, but thats the only way. Diplomacy doesn't work with extremism Muslims. I don't really believe you could understand, because Israel's policy is a lot different from USA's. sorry about the mistakes.
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posted
Ahhh...the wisdom of BeanCounter...give me a moment to just bask in the glow...okay...I'm done basking.
Now back! Back I say! Back under the bridge from whence you came!
Mig, Israel has a right to protect itself, however they also need to exercise some level of restraint. It goes without saying that the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese need to reign in their fringe elements, as they stand to gain nothing from an all-out war. The other side of that coin, though, is that Israel also gains nothing by endorsing extreme messures and an excessive show of force.
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quote:Peace is what you have when your enemy is destroyed, or so Islam, the Religion of Peace teaches. Once they are penniless beggars in your midst who have accepted the Koran, then they can be treated with some mercy.
posted
This is not the activity of "Fringe elements" this is the will of the Islamic people, they elected Hamas, and they are Hezbollah, this is not Timothy McVay, a wacko fringe nut, this is the Nazi's, a majority committed to power and atrocity. The myth of all the nice everyday Children of God in the Arab world going about their business hoping for peace is just not true. These people live short brutal lives full of anger, and an enormous sense of indignation that the world they are entitled to is in other hands then their own.
posted
Hello, utka, and welcome to the forum. Since you're a newer member, you might not be aware that we follow the news pretty closely around here, and have discussed the kidnapping and rocket fire issues on earlier threads about this matter. I'm pretty sure everyone who has posted on this thread is aware of everything you mentioned. You are correct that none of us currently live in Israel, although there are a few posters who have previously, and it's certainly good to get the perspective of someone who does. I hope you stay safe, by the way.
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quote:It goes without saying that the Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese need to reign in their fringe elements, as they stand to gain nothing from an all-out war.
Hamas is the government now. What exactly make them or Hezbollah a fringe element?
Exactly what level of restraint would you recommend if your home or city was the target of rocket attacks from across the border and the people in charge of the area from which the rockets are fired did nothing to stop them? Or if your your people were being kidnapped and taken across the border? Seriously, TheHumanTarget, what level of restraint do you think works best with these Islamofascists?
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peace is what you have when your enemy is destroyed, or so Islam, the Religion of Peace teaches. Once they are penniless beggars in your midst who have accepted the Koran, then they can be treated with some mercy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a lie.
I suggest you look up the "Treatment of Converts in conquered lands" Rules in the Koran if you wade through the thing as I did. It is simple truth and religious doctrine. You are the one who has been lied too.
posted
Thanks. I said you might not be aware to this because as Israeli, I see in the TV/Internet every one of those rockets and terrorist attacks stories, an its a pretty big deal over here. Sometimes I watch USA and UK TV stations and surf in your news sites, and I noticed that if a terror attack happens here- its the headline for a day or two, and thats it, we remember each one of those attacks. If a rocket falls, it not even on the front page. I'm not saying it should be, I just think you still not aware as you think you are.
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quote:Peace is what you have when your enemy is destroyed, or so Islam, the Religion of Peace teaches. Once they are penniless beggars in your midst who have accepted the Koran, then they can be treated with some mercy.
This is a lie.
The most vocal proponents of the Religion of Peace have for years now shown nothing but respect for other religions and an unabiding lack of support for violence. Really, it hard to find any clerics from the Religion or Peace that support violence in any form or teach anything but respect for other religions. Plus, I hear that the whole community comes out to offer their good will whenever a new Chirstian church opens up anywhere in the Arab world. Hey, that's just their way.
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quote: Hamas is the government now. What exactly make them or Hezbollah a fringe element?
There are many elements to both Hamas and Hezbollah, and on many occasions in the past, one or more of each of these elements have exerted pressure on the others.
As to the level of restraint, I couldn't truly say. However, the escalation of attacks by both sides will do nothing but feed a further escalation of attacks. It's a viscious cycle, and short of a full-scale war that wipes out one side, it will never accomplish what either side wants.
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quote:Exactly what level of restraint would you recommend if your home or city was the target of rocket attacks from across the border and the people in charge of the area from which the rockets are fired did nothing to stop them? Or if your your people were being kidnapped and taken across the border?
Well, for one thing, I would recommend not starting a war with the other country - especially if doing so won't make the problem go away.
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posted
Oh, utka, I have no doubt that you have more details and that the issue is vastly more immediate to you than it is to most of us. Only makes sense, neh? Just wanted you to know that the things like numbers of rockets launched and kidnappings have been under discussion here in other threads. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: Really, it hard to find any clerks from the Religion or Peace that support violence in any form or teach anything but respect for other religions.
No, it's not, and it's unfortunate that the fanatics of any religion are the most vocal. For a non-Muslim example, just look at Fred Phelps or Jerry Faldwell.
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quote:I suggest you look up the "Treatment of Converts in conquered lands" Rules in the Koran if you wade through the thing as I did. It is simple truth and religious doctrine. You are the one who has been lied too.
One does not have to accept the Koran to be treated with mercy, according to the Koran.
While as with most religious scriptures, there is not one straightforward, math-like approach to such a big issue, neither is the issue as clear-cut as you suggest, by any means.
So yeah, you're lying. Thanks for the xenophobic religious intolerance, but since I feel there's a glut of it on the market, I'm not interested in yours.
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posted
Interesting. Seems to be some calls for fighting.
quote: There are also many statements that promote an adversarial relationship. For example:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 9:29 O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends/protecters; they are friends/protecters of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend/protecter, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. 5:51 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! 2:65 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. 3:85
Can’t believe we’re talking about the merits of the Koran while war is close to breaking out…..
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posted
Jay, do I need to start quoting the Bible to show you that no religion is free from this kind of thing? 'Cuz I can.
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quote:Can’t believe we’re talking about the merits of the Koran while war is close to breaking out…..
We're at war with Islamofascism, understanding the foundations for their beliefs is crucial to any discussion on this topic and to understanding what Isreal and the reat of the west is up against.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Jay, do I need to start quoting the Bible to show you that no religion is free from this kind of thing? 'Cuz I can.
True, many religions, including Christianity, are subject to this attack, but such an attack on Christianity would have more merit if it focused on Christianity in, let's say, the seventh century. The point is that this criticism is relevant to mainstream Islam as routinely practised and preached today.
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quote:Peace is what you have when your enemy is destroyed, or so Islam, the Religion of Peace teaches. Once they are penniless beggars in your midst who have accepted the Koran, then they can be treated with some mercy.
This is a lie.
The most vocal proponents of the Religion of Peace have for years now shown nothing but respect for other religions and an unabiding lack of support for violence. Really, it hard to find any clerics from the Religion or Peace that support violence in any form or teach anything but respect for other religions. Plus, I hear that the whole community comes out to offer their good will whenever a new Chirstian church opens up anywhere in the Arab world. Hey, that's just their way.
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Oh, utka, I have no doubt that you have more details and that the issue is vastly more immediate to you than it is to most of us. Only makes sense, neh? Just wanted you to know that the things like numbers of rockets launched and kidnappings have been under discussion here in other threads.
Actually, to be more precise, I've mentioned them, and everyone else has ignored them.
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quote:Originally posted by Jay: Can’t believe we’re talking about the merits of the Koran while war is close to breaking out…..
Just out of curiosity, what makes the Arabs firing rockets into Israeli cities not war? I ask, because if war is "close to breaking out", it seems that all of these rockets don't yet count as war. Or am I misunderstanding?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Jay, do I need to start quoting the Bible to show you that no religion is free from this kind of thing? 'Cuz I can.
True, many religions, including Christianity, are subject to this attack, but such an attack on Christianity would have more merit if it focused on Christianity in, let's say, the seventh century. The point is that this criticism is relevant to mainstream Islam as routinely practised and preached today.
So they're a little behind the curve. A good spanking ought to help with that.
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posted
And as has been underscored to you, these are not fringe nuts, this is the core of Islam.
Thanks for the quote from the Koran, I forced my way through it once and searching it for specific details makes me feel like I am immersed in filth, while I might dig into it again it is amusing how short the search for hatred really need be.
As for the Bible having ancient barbarism in it, well it is an ancient text isn't it? While the Koran is a much more recent artifact, newer then the new testament, yet more barbaric then the old. There is no comparison in quality or utility.
quote:Originally posted by Jay: Can’t believe we’re talking about the merits of the Koran while war is close to breaking out…..
Just out of curiosity, what makes the Arabs firing rockets into Israeli cities not war? I ask, because if war is "close to breaking out", it seems that all of these rockets don't yet count as war. Or am I misunderstanding?
I think you really need to re-evaluate your terminology. You say "the arabs", when you really mean a specific portion of like-minded individuals among the arabic community who have extremist views not closely resembling the majority of the population's opinions. The reason why people think Israel is overreacting is not because they are retaliating against the attacks (I think alot of us would expect retaliation), it is because of who they are retaliating against. They bombed obviously civilian targets, killing families and innocent lebanese citizens (musling and xian alike). This seems to me like the exact same thing that Hezbollah are doing to them with the rockets...
I really truly believe that it is nearly impossible to take sides in this conflict. The militant extremists are wrong, the arabic governments are wrong for not doing more to stop this, and Israel is wrong for their harsh retaliation. There is simply no other rational stance to take, and anyone who tells you otherwise or thinks otherwise is seriously misled (IMO) and really needs to be educated more about this issue, since they are doing much more harm than they realize.
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quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: And as has been underscored to you, these are not fringe nuts, this is the core of Islam.
Thanks for the quote from the Koran, I forced my way through it once and searching it for specific details makes me feel like I am immersed in filth, while I might dig into it again it is amusing how short the search for hatred really need be.
As for the Bible having ancient barbarism in it, well it is an ancient text isn't it? While the Koran is a much more recent artifact, newer then the new testament, yet more barbaric then the old. There is no comparison in quality or utility.
BC
If by the bible you are speaking of the old testament, then maybe you should know that both the jews and the muslim also consider this text to be sacred (Ishmael anyone?). If you are speaking of the new testament, then they are not that different in age. The new testament was writen by many authors ranging from 50 to as much as 300 AD, and the koran came about around 600 AD. 300 years is really not that much when you consider that 2000 years have passed since then, and certainly isn't enough to call the new testament ancient and the koran recent.
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posted
And the new Testament preaches the Gospel of Jesus who teaches mercy and love to all men, while the Koran takes the worst of the old and resurrects it.
posted
Yet look at what the xians did with that flowery message for the next couple thousand years: crusades, civil wars, religious persecution, anti-civil rights movements, etc.
Clearly you cannot judge an entire faith by what is writen in texts that are many hundreds (if not thousands) of years old.
I really feel like all this talk about the koran is really off topic. What we are talking about is a modern situation that in reality has very little to do with religious teaching and much more to do with political and social issues. I don't know where you people like BC and Mig learn to think like you do, but it really worries me. Even my conservative friends here in canada are able to adopt a balanced and rational perspective when it comes to controversial issues like this, maybe it is in your education system, but you really need to learn to think critically about these issues. It is never a black and white issue.
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Since you're a newer member, you might not be aware that we follow the news pretty closely around here, and have discussed the kidnapping and rocket fire issues on earlier threads about this matter. I'm pretty sure everyone who has posted on this thread is aware of everything you mentioned. You are correct that none of us currently live in Israel, although there are a few posters who have previously, and it's certainly good to get the perspective of someone who does. I hope you stay safe, by the way.
