posted
I'd forgotten what today was. It's a pretty minor day, up there with Talk like a pirate day...
But for those who haven't come out to their loved ones, it's an important day. They day they can "get around" to it. Like Quitting Smoking day... You set a date and do it.
So I see a featured story on Yahoo about it. I think "Oh cool" and click on it. I read their little blurb... Then I look at the 300+ (more now) comments at the bottom.
Maybe, living in California I'm just insulated. Maybe I've just forgotten what the Real World is like... but I was unprepared.
The vast majority of the comments consisted of "Die F**S" and "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" and "Go back into the closet" or "Enjoy Hell F**S!"... and it went down hill from there.
I doubt most of these people attend church or generally give a rodents buttocks about what God says... except where gay people are concerned.
I realize it's better here than in the rest of the world... but sometimes I wish I could take my ball and go home. I don't want anything I do... anything I have a hand in making to benefit these people.
posted
I think that people who are willing to be open about that aspect of themselves are very brave. Particularly in light of those sorts of comments.
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posted
I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.
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posted
See, I'm bi... so there's still a very real possibility that I'll settle down with a nice man, have children, etc. But... oh well. I'm happy with myself, and my choices. I guess that's all that matters.
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posted
You'll find almost all newstories on Yahoo with comments are filled with that sort of thing. I learned a long time to ignore that sort of nastiness.
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posted
Yes, I think it's a web phenomenon. If you saw the people posting those comments, my guess is you'd be looking at a bunch of 13 year old boys who got there by trolling for porn or something.
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posted
I went looking for the article, and found it. Apparently, comments have been suspended due to hateful postings. That kind of thing makes me happy- that someone would see it and stop it.
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posted
I do not see that anyones sexuality is a decent topic. As for the ritual of 'coming out' I suppose it is analogous to telling the parents that you have done 'it' in my world. The value is just shocking them into recognizing you as an adult, perhaps buying some independence and space.
I do not see it as surprising that it usually creates a rift. The only bravery involved is a hidden desire to shatter ties that are vulnerable to breaches of decorum. We are each of us many things, a man should not take every lust and violent impulse and make it public, living in an upstanding manner is and always has been about maintaining a persona, it is a virtue that all civilized adults must embrace. It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure. Come on, we all know what is under the coat, polite people do not open it in public.
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posted
The only bravery involved is a hidden desire to shatter ties that are vulnerable to breaches of decorum.
Or a not-so-hidden desire to be honest with one's loved ones, so that they will not be caught off guard later. So that they will be prepared for your trials and tribulations, to be there as a family should, strong and supportive. So that their secret plans for the future of their young ones can adjust and grow with the reality.
It is entirely possible that many familes can be shattered by "breaches of decorum." I pity those familes, the parents and children both, and I hope that the broken ties can grow back again, stronger than before, built on a solid framework of communication.
An aside: I rarely read comments on articles, whether it's yahoo or Aint It Cool news or wherever. The urge to fling your feces is strong in the undeveloped primate, but I don't have to watch it.
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posted
Polite people shouldn't call people who want to be honest about themselves names and the like. It's not indecent if it is an honest part of who the person is. It's not just some sort of sexual thing like a penchant for staring at red pumps... It's just... hard to explain. I don't think most heterosexuals have to think about their sexuality.
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posted
I don't think most heterosexuals have to think about their sexuality.
they don't. Most of them probably don't even think they have a sexual orientation. And most "traditionally" gendered people don't think about that either.
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quote:Most of them probably don't even think they have a sexual orientation.
Or society doesn't constantly tell them what they feel is wrong. It doesn't present a 'problem' in their lives.
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posted
I'll admit that I'm not exactly in a position to judge, but I sort of see coming out as somewhat analogous to admitting to your Christian parents that you're a Wiccan, or admitting to your liberal friends that you're a conservative. It's not about trying to shock people, it's about not hiding something that's important about who you are. It's an uncomfortable truth that might cause people to turn against you if you tell them, but needs to be told because hiding something important about yourself from the people you are close to hurts.
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quote:Originally posted by kojabu: I don't think most heterosexuals have to think about their sexuality.
they don't. Most of them probably don't even think they have a sexual orientation. And most "traditionally" gendered people don't think about that either.
While I disagree completely with General Sax's position and am very saddened by what Pixiest encountered, I'd caution you against overreacting.
Sex is a complicated issue for just about everyone. While I'll grant you that the still-too-prevalent stigma against homosexuality adds difficulty, please don't kid yourself that everyone else merely has it easy and lets it come naturally.
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quote:It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure.
This makes no sense to me in the context of this thread. We are not talking about standing on the street corner and flashing people. Such hyperbole only serves to increase misunderstanding, not ameliorate it.
Masks may be necessary still in many arenas, or they may serve to just eliminate unnecessary information. When I go to the bank for a loan, of course I don't care whether the loan officer is gay, or straight, or even if he dances naked in the woods on the solstice. In the context of that specific transaction, none of that matters. However, I prefer my personal relationships to be a little less cardboard. I like to look at my friends and family and feel that I know them and understand them. You can't do that in a room full of masks.
And it's hell when you feel that you have to wear a mask for the ones you love. When you're a closeted homosexual, every "I love you" from your family and friends holds the caveat "at least the 'you' I think I know." You never know if you are loved for who you are if no one knows who that is. That, my friend, is hell, and it's far too great a price to pay in the name of prudish "decorum".
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posted
I think people should just hide every relationship they have with everyone else from everyone. Even platonic ones.
I mean, c'mon. Nobody really wants to know that you have acquaintances. That's none of their business. Letting other people see you talking to your friends is a terrible breach of decorum.
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: And it's hell when you feel that you have to wear a mask for the ones you love. When you're a closeted homosexual, every "I love you" from your parents holds the caveat "at least the straight 'you' I think I know." You never know if you are loved for who you are if no one knows who that is. That, my friend, is hell, and it's far too great a price to pay in the name of prudish "decorum".
Worth repeating. A few times.
Kojabu, I guess I was focused in on the first part of your and Syn's discussion, and I should have quoted it that way:
quote:I don't think most heterosexuals have to think about their sexuality.
They don't.
It just struck me as worth saying something about.
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posted
I don't see why "I should tell you this so you aren't surprised when I show up for Thanksgiving with my partner" should be equated with "And we have SEX SEX SEX on the dining table." The first I would tell to my family and friends, and the second I wouldn't say to anyone other than my partner. Why on earth should information about one's sexual orientation (and therefore the identity of one's partner) be interpreted (dismissed) as adolescent "shock value"?
I'm actually quite puzzled by this attitude.
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posted
kojabu, sexuality and everything accompanying is a complicated subject for almost everyone. It requires thought and sorting out from active homosexuals and from religious heterosexual virgins. It's always complicated.
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posted
Kojabu, please don't take this the wrong way. I didn't mean for this to turn into a big discusion and I'll stop after this, not because I'm frustrated or angry but because I don't want to beat anyone up over this, and I feel like I'm coming near harping.
But just re-read that sentence and replace "heterosexuals" with "homosexuals"... doesn't that strike you as untrue? perhaps even offensively so?
Again, I'm not angry and I don't want to come in, especially in *this* thread, and be unsupportive of homosexuals. So I'm going to leave it here... and apologize if I have seemed to be straining a gnat and swallowing a camel in responding to this sidebar and not General Sax's post, for example.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:But just re-read that sentence and replace "heterosexuals" with "homosexuals"... doesn't that strike you as untrue?
Well, that's because not all statements are equivalent. I would agree that most heterosexuals don't have to consider their sexual orientation, but believe most homosexuals do.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Chris, I'm so glad you posted that. I totally misread the post you are referring to and couldn't for the life of me figure out why she made a reference to baboons. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It is important and necessary to hide who you really are from everyone who loves you and everyone you love because if they knew the REAL you, they'd run shrieking from the room.
*has tongue surgically removed from cheek*
ETA: I'm actually posting from a closet, which is interesting (if only to me) in this context.
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quote:Originally posted by kojabu: I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.
Twice? That sounds interesting. Had they forgotten, or did they think you'd changed your mind in between?
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I do not see that anyones sexuality is a decent topic. As for the ritual of 'coming out' I suppose it is analogous to telling the parents that you have done 'it' in my world. The value is just shocking them into recognizing you as an adult, perhaps buying some independence and space.
I do not see it as surprising that it usually creates a rift. The only bravery involved is a hidden desire to shatter ties that are vulnerable to breaches of decorum. We are each of us many things, a man should not take every lust and violent impulse and make it public, living in an upstanding manner is and always has been about maintaining a persona, it is a virtue that all civilized adults must embrace. It is a shame that the art of wearing your mask has fallen into disrepute and a virtue has been made of indecent exposure. Come on, we all know what is under the coat, polite people do not open it in public.
It isn't about sex. It's about, "Hey, folks, I'll be bringing home girlfriends to meet you instead of boyfriends". Or do you think that bringing home a boyfriend to meet your family is tantamount to saying, "We're going to go upstairs and get naked now"?
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: kojabu, sexuality and everything accompanying is a complicated subject for almost everyone. It requires thought and sorting out from active homosexuals and from religious heterosexual virgins. It's always complicated.
Yes. And that is why when I replied to the first comment, I changed sexuality to sexual orientation. There is a BIG difference between the two. Sexuality is just about everything related to sex while sexual orientation is what gender(s) one is attracted to.
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quote:Originally posted by kojabu: I've come out to my family twice. As Pix said, it takes time. For you it'll seem like forever, but for them it might be something that they just learned whereas you've been thinking about it, etc for a lot longer than them.
Twice? That sounds interesting. Had they forgotten, or did they think you'd changed your mind in between?
I came out to them about two different things.
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posted
Actually, I assumed I was going to be disowned when I came out. It was a GIVEN.
Everytime my parents told me they loved me I thought "Yeah right."
Anger and resentment built up inside me when they hadn't even rejected me yet. I pulled away from hugs and scowled at them.
And when I came out, all that melted away. It was rocky for a couple of years. They sure weren't happy about it. And it weirds them out to this day, even though I married a man... But they didn't reject me. And now I know when they say they love me they mean it.
posted
Pix, my gay boyfriend in high school was convinced that his parents would disown him (especially his father) if he came out to them...which is why he always brought me over or told them he was going out with me on Friday night (he did...but we went to the gay coffeehouse). When he finally did come out, they didn't disown him. They were surprised and shocked (his mom tried to hold onto the hope that he was bi), but they realized that he's still the son that they love.
Actually, both of my close gay friends had experiences like that. The other one came out earlier, before he finished high school at moved out, and by the time he left his mom was talking about cute guys with him.
It definitely helps my friends feel closer to their parents, and I think in time, the parents felt closer to the children as well. I mean, even just telling my parents that I had a boyfriend, or admitting to them I'd kissed someone was a little tough because I think parents kind of want to hold on to this idea they have of their children. It's not the same for me at all, but when you feel like there's something about you that your parents wouldn't like, you kind of want them to know so that you know that they accept you. Everybody, I think, wants to feel accepted on some level.
posted
Aw. How cute. Talking about cute men with her gay son. Adorable. I don't even know what the heck I am... so I can't even really come out at all as I seem to be madly in love with a man, but women are rather nice looking. So I don't think I am actually anything at all.... I've hinted and only got scorn and bible verses quoted at me. I feel I should STOP being honest with my relatives. They hate it.
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posted
I thought it was so cute when he told me that, Syn.
With both of my friends, the fathers had a little bit of a tougher time with it than the mothers. I don't know why, but...it seems like in general, heterosexual men are more likely to be uncomfortable with gay men (of course, there are many exeptions, thank God), while heterosexual women usually don't have as much of a problem with lesbians. It doesn't make sense to me, really.
posted
pH: You'd be surprised the kind of scorn I've gotten from straight women. But ya, I've got it a lot easier than gay guys do.
Syn: You sound a lot like me. Once I figured out that I liked both, just in entirely different ways, it made more sense to me. And don't get caught up in which you like better, either becuase it's just so different you can't compare.
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quote:Originally posted by pH: I thought it was so cute when he told me that, Syn.
With both of my friends, the fathers had a little bit of a tougher time with it than the mothers. I don't know why, but...it seems like in general, heterosexual men are more likely to be uncomfortable with gay men (of course, there are many exeptions, thank God), while heterosexual women usually don't have as much of a problem with lesbians. It doesn't make sense to me, really.
-pH
I think it's also typically easier for the opposite-gender parent to be okay with it; from what I've seen, fathers tend to take their gay sons uncloseting much harder (or with more anger) than mothers do, and vice-versa.
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posted
I was just thinking the same thing, eros. Because say, mothers probably grew up wanting to be with a man and being attracted to a man, so they can relate to the feelings gay sons are having more than fathers could. Even fathers of heterosexual daughters have issues with them being attracted to men.
Because for whatever reason, be it genetic, learned, or both, many people seem to have a visceral, negative reaction to men that act submissive. A man that is not manly is wrong to them, on a deep and probably unconscious level that is justified by religious, social, or ick-factor explanations. Women together? Not as big a deal because no machismo is threatened, no "property" is taken, and it's kinda hot. But you might notice that lesbians who act or try to look like men tend to get more scorn than "lipstick" lesbians.
I consider it to be much like an atavistic fear of the dark, or spiders. An unfortunate throwback to times when survival was tougher, and one that can be and should be overcome.
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posted
Hmmmm. I have a visceral reaction to submissive men that is not at all negative. Kiss the red pumps, baby!
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posted
On the other hand, I'm gay and I have a visceral negative reaction to men who are too nelly. Lots of homosexual men do, in my experience, so there's something there that isn't specifically due to any "ick" factor surrounding sexual activity.
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posted
Well, 'submissive' and 'gay' are two different things. A lot of gay men are very manly, so it's weird that the stereotype is one of weakness. I mean, the Roman army wasn't a bunch of push-overs.
ETA: Now I'm thinking about togas and gladiators and stuff Ignore me.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Nor was the Roman army generally homosexual. There was certainly homosexuality in Rome, but it was seen as a "Greek" thing that manly Romans didn't do. The rumor that followed Ceaser all his life about him and the King Nicomedes was a disparaging rumor meant to knock a little shine off his image.
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