posted
My research continues. I stumbled on to some Anti-adoption LJs. I don't get it. On one hand, I can sympathize with the pain of these biological mothers who feel like they've been pushed into giving up their child, but on the other hand, I cannot understand being completely anti-adoption. I read a list of myths about adoption they had and totally disagreed with about all of them. Their arguments were too broad, not all adoptions and situations behind them are the same. Two families adopting from the same country will have different experiences. They can't just broadly say that adoption is a bad thing and that it damages mothers and children without looking at the whole picture. Am I wrong for feeling a bit frustrated?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think if you gave up a child for adoption and had a horrible experience with it, you would be anti-adoption. I know I've read a lot of heartbreaking stories about women who had to give up children because they were young and single, even though they didn't want to. I imagine that would be a horrible experience to give up a child that you wanted to keep, and that experience would make you anti-adoption. I don't think those people are wrong, it's just their point of view. You can't out-argue them or change their minds, their experience is too profound and miserable to do so. That doesn't make the opposing view wrong either. I doubt adoption is going anywhere, too many people agree with the principle when done correctly.
I don't know that you're wrong for feeling frustrated, but you need to understand their point of view as well. Not everyone has entered into that situation with clear eyes or with total agreement.
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quote:Adopted children and adults are over-represented in psychological treatment facilities. Adoptees make up 2-3% of the American population and approximately 15% of the patient load under psychiatric care. 20-30% of the children and adolescents in treatment are adoptees.
quote:I think if you gave up a child for adoption and had a horrible experience with it, you would be anti-adoption.
I think the two things have a correlation, of course, but I don't buy that it is necessarily a case of causation or even that the end of that chain logically follows from the beginning.
If someone has a horrible experience with giving up a child for adoption, that does not mean that they wouldn't have had an equally horrible or even worse experience trying to raise the child. This, to me, seems like yet another expression of a phenomenon rampant in America, which is the idea that if you are unhappy, it must be because of someone else or some external force.
It is very likely that some of these people have legitimate complaints about the way their adoption experience progressed, but that also doesn't mean that adoption itself is a bad thing, only that it was misapplied or poorly executed in their specific case, or in some specific way.
On the other hand, if for example, a young teen gives up her child for adoption and it severely traumatizes her, and the child she gave up grows up with less than ideal parents and is therefore "traumatized", it does not follow that this trauma was because of the adoption. They could very likely be completely separate cases of trauma. The mother's trauma could ultimately be traced to the circumstances that led her to get pregnant in the first place. The child's could be traced to simple poor parenting, or (heaven forbid the suggestion) to simple irresponsibility and willfullness on the part of the child. It also does not follow that anything would have turned out any better if the adoption had not taken place.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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It's possible to be anti-the-current-system-of-adoption and not be anti-adoption. I suspect many people who have suffered at the hands of the current adoption system have a hard time presenting their points in a manner that makes that distinction clear.
However, anyone suggesting reforms to our adoption system (as opposed to abolition of adoption) is almost certainly in the former camp. I suspect those who are simply stating "don't give up your child for adoption ever - it's wrong" are simply acting from a place of deep personal pain.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: I think if you gave up a child for adoption and had a horrible experience with it, you would be anti-adoption. I know I've read a lot of heartbreaking stories about women who had to give up children because they were young and single, even though they didn't want to. I imagine that would be a horrible experience to give up a child that you wanted to keep, and that experience would make you anti-adoption. I don't think those people are wrong, it's just their point of view. You can't out-argue them or change their minds, their experience is too profound and miserable to do so. That doesn't make the opposing view wrong either. I doubt adoption is going anywhere, too many people agree with the principle when done correctly.
I don't know that you're wrong for feeling frustrated, but you need to understand their point of view as well. Not everyone has entered into that situation with clear eyes or with total agreement.
That's what I'm trying to do, but I feel like some of them need to focus their rage on the system and the way it's set up, but people don't always get angry at the right people...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Personally, I wish that there were more adoptions happening.
Totally, 100%, completely agree!!!!!!
(waiting not to patiently for "the call" from Russia so we can find my new daughter)
Adoptions are traumatic for both parents and child. (Less so for the biological father because they often are idiots who don't care who they knock up etc.) However, most of the adoptees who are in therapy are not trying to come to terms with being adopted. They are trying to come to terms with being abandoned in the first place. There are many attachment issues that must be dealt with in even the best of homes.
However, the rate of good psyche's from modern adopted children is higher than those in adoption homes, foster homes, or who remained in abusive homes. If the mother is caught in a web of addiction it greatly limits her ability to care for and even love her child.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I would think anyone who is anti-abortion would be pro-adoption. Not that others can't be pro-adoption too, of course, but adoption has a special status as a possible alternative to abortion, no?
So...I'm a little perplexed why mph would think it hypocritical for him to be in favor of adoption. I must've missed some posts of yours in another thread.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Maybe because he has bio-kids or something? I wish I could adopt RIGHT NOW! I envy all of these people who are going to get their child and bring them home, but first I got to have home worth bringing a child to... One that isn't so... messy... so chaotic. With hay on the floor and this darn rabbit chewed up my good vacuum's cord. I think things have improved over the years in terms of adoption. There used to be a time when a lot of the mothers were in these homes and most of them didn't even get to see their child. Bath then it seemed like a lot of people wouldn't tell the child that they were adopted, even if it was obvious, like in the case of a Korean child with a white family. But, I think things are a lot different now. Now when people adopt from Asia they try to get their child Asian role models and for older children they seem to be more aware of the issues. I think it can work out as long as the child gets all the help they need. But, dang do I wish I was 30 and married right now... Dan-Raven, will you post about that? I really like reading adoption stories for some reason.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: I would think anyone who is anti-abortion would be pro-adoption. Not that others can't be pro-adoption too, of course, but adoption has a special status as a possible alternative to abortion, no?
So...I'm a little perplexed why mph would think it hypocritical for him to be in favor of adoption. I must've missed some posts of yours in another thread.
I agree that it is natural for somebody who is anti-abortion to be pro-adoption.
What makes me wonder about my hypocracy is that while I want more adoptions to happen across the board (both giving more up for adoption and taking more in for adoption), I personally have not adopted a single child, instead opting for the biological approach to fatherhood.
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m_p_h, I wonder if it could be like, hmmm, the profession of music? On could think it was marvelous to have professional musicians in the world, but still find it not quite suited to what one does with one's own life. Same with any other sort of art, or engineering, or medicine, or what have you.
One could be pro-adoption-in-all-the-many-right-circumstances, and still not judge one's own circumstance to be of the properly fitting sort. So you do something else. Not hypocritical, in my book.
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That's not a bad analogy, CT. I think I like it.
I don't think I'm hypocritical about adoption. We've considered adopting before, but we never felt like it was the right thing for us to do at the time.
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I'd like to do both in the future, to have a child of my own and adopt some, but there's so many children that need homes from so many places, including right here in the US so I'm agonizing every night about it. I'd love to adopt a waiting child from here, but it will be years before I am responsible enough. I imagine a child that has been in the system for that long would have quite a few problems they'd need therapy to deal with and that would cost money... I just know I'll have an unusual family. I seemed to be obsessed with the thought of creating a family these days. Seems like the biological appoard is so much easier... no goverment prying... but childbirth SCARES ME!
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The major difference between foreign and domestic adoption is the role of the biological parents. Here in the US biological parents have rights to the children they give up to adoption. Further, there is a movement to make them part of the child's life. It is no longer uncommon for an adopting couple to help a pregnant woman with all the prenatal care, be there in the delivery room, and keep in touch with the mother for the rest of their lives. The mother becomes kind of a distant Aunt. On the other hand it is also possible, and the legal right of the biological mother, to change her mind and keep her child after the child is born. No longer are there allowed any pressures for the distraught mother to give away her child as promised.
With foreign adoptions the biological parents are either non-existent, or products of pure fantasy. One woman adopted from Guatemala, as told that her biological parents were a symphony cellist and a civil engineer who while unmarried, decided not to end their careers by keeping this child. As she grew up, her love of music was put down to her biological mothers genes, her good math grades were put down to her biological father. She went in search of her biological family when she turned 30. She discovered her biological parents were impoverished scratch farmers who couldn't afford another girl at home.
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And there will still be lots of "experts" telling you it's not the right time to push, even though that's all you want to do.
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Can't speak for either set of my parents -- never met the first set -- but I've never noticed the slightest traumatic residue from it. I had parents who wanted me. What more do you need?
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: That's not a bad analogy, CT. I think I like it.
I don't think I'm hypocritical about adoption. We've considered adopting before, but we never felt like it was the right thing for us to do at the time.
mph, I don't think that makes you hypocritical at all. It just sounds to me like you are in favor of parenting, regardless of how the child comes into their life.
That's a great place to be, IMO. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'm still doing research and reading a lot of stuff on the adoption forum and wondering what I can do to help any children of mine deal with this sort of trauma. When the time comes, will I have enough money or insurance to get them into therapy to help them? It's a bit ridiculous, they probably haven't even been born yet, but I really want to be a good parent to them and help them grow up to be strong, confident individuals who won't get their fragile little souls cut down so much...
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Raising a child is hard enough with two parents, I can only imagine how difficult it would be alone. I could never, in good conscience, adopt a child without having a full partner in the endeavor.
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I considered having children alone, and I rejected the idea for just the reason mph said. Single moms do a great job, many of them, in very difficult circumstances, and I have nothing but admiration for them. Life happens, and one can't be sure one won't end up a single mom by whatever route, but I just decided that I should not deliberately set out to become one. I felt like I owed my children at least a shot at a two-parent family. And I felt I deserved a real husband rather than someone who was a bio-dad of my children, someone whom I would probably choose because I loved him, but who would not love me or the children enough in return to be there for us as a real part of our family. That just seemed too cruel to my kids, that I would deliberately deprive them of a father.
Of course, so far I've deprived them of existence, instead, so I'm not sure they would agree with me, but then, you have to choose what seems best.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I have to somehow get the sort of husband who is on the same page as me. Someone who will not HIT the kids. I got hit when I was a kid when I lived with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother, and also when I lived with my uncle and other grandmother. I didn't think I really deserved it. But, at least when my uncle hit me with a belt, he'd explain why and talk to me. But still, no hitting them. It will be ages before I could find such a guy though ><. Someone cool. I don't have the maturity or the support system to be a single parent and I'd have to do all the cleaning myself.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Cottage cheese is nasty by itself. I'd rather have it with the root beer. At least then I can drink the root beer around the cottage cheese, and it's not as if the root beer can ruin the taste of the cottage cheese.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Cottage cheese is disgusting by itself, so I would guess that it can only be better with root beer. I would totally give it a shot.
-o-
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: The major difference between foreign and domestic adoption is the role of the biological parents. Here in the US biological parents have rights to the children they give up to adoption.
I don't think this is a completely accurate statement. Not all US biological parents have rights to their children. My childrens' biological parents have no rights. And most children adopted from overseas are not adopted from their biological parents, but from some sort of foster/orphanage system, which makes infant adoptions not the appropriate analog to compare to. Rather, the most analogous domestic situation to compare to is DCF adoptions.
posted
Department of Children and Families. Kids in government custody, usually because they have been removed from their parents due to abuse or, more rarely, because their parents have died and there is not a convenient relative to take them in.
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Of course, in a few countries, bio parents have MORE rights than U.S. parents who give up their kids.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: That's what I'm trying to do, but I feel like some of them need to focus their rage on the system and the way it's set up, but people don't always get angry at the right people...
That's life. You can't really change their opinions, and I'm not really sure you should. Not everyone has to agree with you, you just have to be comfortable and secure with your opinions. If you have that, it shouldn't matter if people oppose you. Like I said, people aren't going to stop adopting babies, and bringing attention to the problems with the system will only help to make that system better.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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My biggest annoyance with the State of Florida is that they don't adopt anyone under the age of 5 alone. They're all part of sibling groups they won't seperate.
Now, how can every child 5 and under possibly be part of a group of siblings? Sure, the state helps with medical, therapy, and college. But when I adopt at almost 40 and become a first time mother, I'd really just like one.
So I'll be looking for which countries can guarantee me that the birth parents can't come back and take my child my child away from me. That's probably my largest concern.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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It's not that every child under the age of 5 is part of a sibling group, it's that those that are not get snapped up right away (if they are white or whitish, and if they have no glaring special needs). Also, there are very few children under the age of five, period. It takes years to terminate parental rights, so for a child under five to be there, either the abuse was especially heinous, or DCF was called in for the abuse of an older sibling and the younger one(s) were taken away at that time, or DCF took the children away temporarily but the birth-parents did not feel like going through the necessary steps to get their children back, and gave them away willingly at that point. So yeah, if you're looking for children under the age of five, it helps to be willing to take siblings, or to be willing to take black children, or to be willing to take children with more extreme needs. Beyond that (and I totally understand if that's not what you're looking for) I would suggest waiting. If you wait long enough, and keep nagging your caseworker, and look online for children awaiting adoption yourself, you'll probably get what you want sooner or later. Of course, in the meantime your caseworker will keep trying to tempt you with what you didn't want to take on because her/his job is to place children, not to please you. (Sad, I know, that they don't realize those need to be synonymous, but that's the pressures of their job. Almost nobody's first choice is a child with Down's syndrome, say, but somehow they have to convince someone to take those children.)
But I have personally seen single children under the age of five get adopted from Florida DCF custody.
(They will eventually split siblings, but for children that young the need to do so is not as glaring, because someone will likely be willing to take them as a group, and splitting siblings is problematic and traumatic. After the age of five, they start feeling a little more desperate to place the kids and are more willing to split them up, if necessary. They will be much more likely to split off a young sibling, though, if they get a group of, say, seven kids--which sometimes does happen.)
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Interseting that none of that is on their website. You'd think they'd want all the info out there so people can make an informed decision. My half-informed decision was not to bother with them.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: My biggest annoyance with the State of Florida is that they don't adopt anyone under the age of 5 alone. They're all part of sibling groups they won't seperate.
Now, how can every child 5 and under possibly be part of a group of siblings? Sure, the state helps with medical, therapy, and college. But when I adopt at almost 40 and become a first time mother, I'd really just like one.
So I'll be looking for which countries can guarantee me that the birth parents can't come back and take my child my child away from me. That's probably my largest concern.
There's China to consider, most of the children there are abandoned and since it's illegal to abanadon children there, they don't come back to seek their child. If the parent doesn't come back after a month, the child belongs to the state. Other countries are like that as well, I'm still looking into them.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Syn, I'll say this, because someone really should and I'm the designated mean guy here. The time you're planning on spending on looking into adoption would be much better spent with you focusing on getting yourself into a place where you would actually be a candidate and in a good place to adopt. Right now, from what I've seen, you are far from being there, financially or - I'll be the super bad guy and say - emotionally/maturity-wise.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Syn, I'll say this, because someone really should and I'm the designated mean guy here. The time you're planning on spending on looking into adoption would be much better spent with you focusing on getting yourself into a place where you would actually be a candidate and in a good place to adopt. Right now, from what I've seen, you are far from being there, financially or - I'll be the super bad guy and say - emotionally/maturity-wise.
This is not the sort of statement I need because don't you think I'm aware of this already? Why do people persist in pointing out stuff I already know? It's not just now, it's been like this for ages. I know that I don't have a permanent job. I know i don't have a house yet and I cannot drive yet. I am aware of this! Why do you think that the moment I decided to do this, my life shifted and now every decision I make will lead me to doing this thing! I'll probably end up getting the same sort of thing from my relatives (which is one reason why I haven't told them yet.) I hate when people point out the obvious. Especially since in this topic and in the last topic I made about adoption I said I wasn't mature enough to be a parent, so why even bother telling me this when I KNOW!
Also, I'm still wondering if I should be mad at a friend for saying they wouldn't give me a child, but really, it's so irratating when people insist on lecturing a person about the obvious. It's really not helpful at all.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I adopted my daughter, but only as a legal technicality. My partner and I decided we wanted a child, and we did everything together. Had I been male, no one would have disputed that she's my daughter, despite the lack of genetic connection. But because I'm not, I had to do the adoption in order to have the law recognize that I'm her mother.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Also, do you honestly think I'm going to go out and adopt a child right now? It's tempting, I really want to do it more than almost anything, but there's no way I'm in the position to go out and care for a child. This involves a lot of thought, a lot of research, a lot of soul searching and a total transformation that started just a few weeks ago. There's a process. You have no idea how much I lay in bed just wondering if I can do right by a child and raise them differently than I was raised. You have no idea the sort of thought i put into things. I never just go out and do stuff inpulsively with no thought to the consequences. Hell, even before adopting a rabbit I did a ton of research, read a great deal of books and websites about the proper way to care for rabbits rather than just go out and get one and feed them supermarket food (Which is just about the worse stuff you can give a rabbit, filled with fat, seeds and nuts and not nearly enough fiber) and lock one in a tiny little cage. I know that adopting a child is filled with challenges, that it won't be easy, especially adopting someone overseas that could have a lot of issues that will need to be addressed. Taking care of a child will be hard enough, but how can I make sure that any child of mine doesn't suffer from low self esteem or feel ashamed about where they come from? The anti sites bother me, but they did bring up a lot of issues I never even thought about, how a person can grow up in a family and feel like they don't belong. Which is odd, because I was raised by my biological family and never felt like i totally fit in. It doesn't seem like it, but i seldom do anything without putting a lot of thought into it or looking at every angle but in the future, I will adopt and that is one thing that is totally set in stone unless the need for it disapears and I doubt it will in two years.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Because, Syn, I'm trying to help. You have a way of posting that leads me to think that you often have a very surface way of looking at things. It's my personal opinion that you are probably using things like your adoption kick or watching TV shows you hate and then ranting about them to avoid some of the hard/sacry/tough things out there.
My advice was pretty clear, but I'll reiterate it. You would be better off if you stopped fanatsizing and putting research into adoption and redirected that effort and time into getting yourself to a point where adoption might actually be seomthing you'd be eligible for and could handle.
I don't say these things because I like saying them. I am not mean out of personal inclination. I certainly don't do it to be liked or thanked for it. I say these things, I'm mean, because I think they need to be said and experience has shown me that I'm one of the few people on the Rack that is willing to say mean things but still be trying to help someone.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Synethesia: Thank you for being willing to take a child into your home and work hard towards that child living a wonderful life with you. And thank you for being aware that taking care of a child is no small thing. Best of luck in preparing your home for your future children Try not to get bent out of shape when somebody urges caution. Your smart, but there are folks who think good intentions and love will solve every problem. Mr S rubbed you the wrong way, don't let it get to you too much. Just assure skeptics that you are aware of their concerns, its really all you can do.
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Try not to get bent out of shape when somebody urges caution. Your smart, but there are folks who think good intentions and love will solve every problem. Mr S rubbed you the wrong way, don't let it get to you too much. Just assure skeptics that you are aware of their concerns, its really all you can do.
