posted
This comes with a little story. Two parts. If you're not up for a story -- bail out while you still can.
Okay....
I moved from Utah to Montana this year, for work. I view this as a temporary thing; a step on the ladder of where I want to go. Don't plan to be here for more than a year. And the other day a strange thing occured.
At work, a man was giving me a quizzical look, so I stopped and said, "Hello," thinking this was a customer who wanted my attention.
He said: "Troy Lance? Yes, it's you."
Me: "I'm sorry -- have we met?"
"I got a phone call from your mother last night."
"My mother." I was nonplussed.
"Yes."
"My mother?"
"Yes. I'm your Bishop. You're LDS aren't you?"
"sort of." Now we were shaking hands.
As some of you may know, I was raised LDS, and though I still have a great deal of respect for that particular religion, I no longer identify myself as Mormon. In fact, I don't identify myself as any kind of Christian. The story of Jesus just never made any sense to me, even as a child, and the more I tried to understand, the less sense it made. Finally, as an adult, I just had to say -- this is not for me.
So now to find myself faced with the Bishop of whatever ward I happen to be living in, well, felt a little strange. Made me a little angry, in fact -- but at my mom, not him. I'm 29 years old, and I haven't been a regular church-goer in 12 years. If I wanted to be practicing, I would be. The last thing I need is visits from the local whatever.
For a second I considered blowing him off, but quickly realized: that's not how to behave. This guy, in approaching me, was doing something nice for my mother, not doing something mean to me.
There was an awkward moment of realization, and I said, "What movie are you here to see?"
"Casino Royale. Is it any good?"
"Well, I'm not a big James Bond fan, so I didn't care for it too much -- but I think if you like James Bond, you'll like this one a lot. It's better than most of them. Most people seem to be enjoying it."
"You must have replaced _____ _____ here."
"Yeah," I said.
"_____ is a great guy," he said.
"I didn't know you knew _____."
"Quite well," said the Bishop. "And let's see -- he's down in Arizona now, isn't he?"
"That's right," I said. "I didn't realize he was LDS."
"Well, I'd like to tell you where the church is located. You'd be in my ward if you came. You're up on 12th Street, aren't you?"
"That's right."
He gave directions to the church, and said "We'd like to see you there. There are a lot of young people around your age. You'd probably fit right in with them. We have a group of Carroll College students and some others --"
Which surprised me, because Carroll is a Catholic private school.
I said, "Oh, I'd imagine I'm a bit older than them. I'm 29."
"A lot of them are in their mid-twenties. Yeah," he said.
"I could think about it," I said, having no intention of thinking about it.
"We meet at eleven." (He didn't have to say which day.) "I hope you'll come."
"What did you say your name was?" I said.
"Bishop Sxxxxer" he said.
"Nice meeting you." We shook hands again.
That was part one of the story. Part two is where I call my mom on the phone...
Part two:
Me: "Hi mom. Is there anything you want to tell me? Anything you think maybe I should know about?"
She listed a couple of things...
Me: "No." "No." "Interesting, but not what I'm looking for."
Then she said: "I called your Bishop?"
"Yes!" I said. "Why did you do that?" I should note that my tone, here, was sort of tender but mixed with a pained kind of amusement. If you imagine my tone as being a straight-forward thing, it'll sound like I was rude to my mom, but it wasn't like that. You'd have to understand our relationship.
"I thought maybe he could help you," she said.
"Help me. Mom, help me how?"
"I thought maybe he could get you involved in church, and you could meet new people, and have that network to fall back on."
"Mom," I said, "I haven't been to church --"
"I know," she said. "Not since you were a teenager."
"I don't need you calling the local Bishop. I mean... What changed? Why now? I've lived a lot of places and you've never sent the bishop after me before..."
Her: Long silence. Then: "Oh, Troy, I didn't 'send him after' you."
"Well why would you... I'm just trying to understand..."
And on the other end of the phone, my mom began to cry. "Because you said you were lonely. And I don't want you to be lonely. You don't know how much that hurts me."
"It hurts me to be lonely."
"If you went to church, you wouldn't have to be lonely, you could meet people."
"Mom," I said, "I know -- but that's not a good reason to go to church."
"I hoped it wouldn't be the only reason," she said. "You used to have a testimony."
"Sort of," I said.
"Maybe you could get that back." She was still crying. And I know you all have mothers, fellow hatrackers, so you know how it kills to see (or hear, over the phone) your mom crying.
"Mom," I said -- at a loss "I can be lonely. It's okay. Don't cry."
"It's not just about that," she said, "It's about something President Malky said."
"Who's President Malky?"
"One of my old Stake Presidents," she said.
"What did President Malky say, Mom?"
"He said that when he was a Bishop, he got a phone call from a girl's mother, and she said, 'Bishop, my daughter moved into your ward. She's inactive. Please save my daughter.' So President Malky went to see the woman's daughter, and she was very gothic-looking, with all kinds of tattoos, and piercings, and she was living the wrong kind of lifestyle, and the president invited her to go to church, and she came, and the people there really embraced her, and she found her testimony again. And I keep thinking, 'If President Malky can save that woman's daughter, why can't someone save my Troy'?"
And now my mom was really crying. And I was touched. And I love my mom. But I didn't know what to say. I appreciate what she wants for me, but I just don't believe in the religion. I can't. So now I was on the verge of tears.
I said, "I don't think I need to be saved, mom. I'm doing okay. I'm a pretty good person."
"Troy," she said, "I know you're a great person."
"So why now? You never called any other bishops. What sparked this?"
And she said, "I've called every Bishop in every ward you've ever lived. But he's the only one who ever came to see you."
So my question for you, hatrack, is Why can't people see that James Bond is really a stupid character?
My mom kind of broke my heart with this one. I guess I broke her heart a little bit, too. But I am really touched, and I'm sure she is too, by the fact that this Bishop -- out of every Bishop every place I've lived -- this one guy actually responded to my mom's request to 'save me' (oh man, that makes me want to cry) and came to see me.
That makes him a pretty great guy, in my mind. And I really appreciate that he did that.
On the other hand, I'm not a believer, and I don't think I'll be changing my mind about that any time soon.
Is there a way I can kind of say thanks to this guy? What might be appropriate? Should I send him a letter, maybe, just saying: I really appreciate what you did, and you're a fine example of... stuff?
I don't want to just let it slide and let him think that I don't care.
Oh man. I just feel conflicted. Any thoughts?
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think you are really lucky to have a mom that loves you. You can thank her for caring, and trying to help-- and let that be the end of it. If you see the bishop again, and if he went to the movies there once he probably will again, you can say, "Hey, I appreciate you inviting me. It meant a lot to my mom, and I'm glad to know that I am welcome if I ever want to go." And leave that there, too.
You don't have to go to church if you don't want to, I know you know that. The bishop worded things as an invitation; he's not going to come harass you or ignore you every time he sees you if you don't come. You don't have to tell your mother whether you go or not. She reached out, you can reach back by telling her when you DO make some new friends, at work or wherever you make them, so she knows you're not so lonely.
Again, it sounds like your mom really loves and cares about you, isn't that nice to know, even if the way she expresses it frustrates you?
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I like ketchupqueen's wording for the thank you. But I'd also say send him a note or go in person with the thank you--it'd make his day, and bishops probably don't get thanked enough. But if you do either of those you might want to make it clear you don't plan to attend, otherwise it might be seen as an invitation for further invitations.
I'm with you on James Bond.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
That is the coolest thing I've read in a LONG time. Ever since they made getting the cool news at work too difficult. And that was a while ago.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
TL, that was really sweet. And your Mom sounds like she really wants what is best for you. Bishop seems like a stand-up guy, too.
I can't tell you what to do, though. If it were I in the situation, I'd probably make an appearance at the church, with an open mind, and then see if it moved me to continue or not. But that's me. And my motivation, in that situation, would be mostly in honoring my mother, and not on the state of my soul.
I don't know how it works in this church -- could it be that the congregants are open to people who attend but aren't holding fast to the faith? In my religion, that sort of thing varies by congregation -- some are all snooty to those less observant than their norm, and in others, it's perfectly fine, you're still welcome.
I am currently living a religious life, but I didn't always, and so I DO understand your feelings of hypocrisy regarding going to church. My reasons for taking up all those religious trappings are many, but what got my foot in the door was a group of friends and leaders who were cool, friendly, non-judgemental. I liked them for themselves, and the religion thing was a side bit.
If the faith is repulsive to you, and you can not respect people who practice it, and would be loathe to condone it yourself, then you maybe you ought to stay away. If your mind is at all open to it, well, then you make the choice.
I also believe that it is entirely possible to be a good, moral, decent and worthwhile person and still be without religion or weak in religious practice. The religious do not have a corner of righteousness, no matter what they say.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
There's a principle well worth knowing: "speak the truth in love." You have some things that are true about you -- that you're grateful, and deeply touched by your mother's caring, and full of respect for the man who's going out of his way to connect you -- and they'd warm the hearts of those that heard them, I would guess.
Telling them could put you in the uncomfortable situation of telling some other truths about yourself that you hid from Mr. Bishop Man (that you're not LDS and you're not going to their thing). But those things are true, too, and telling the uncomfortable truths can also be OK.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I like what ketchupqueen said. I would never go back to church. I would probably send a letter asking them not to visit me. I also tend to burn bridges.
My experience has been that any degree of gratitude or niceness I have extended to Mormon leadership has been interpreted as the spirit softening my heart to return to church and regain my testimony. I am becoming more stoic and blunt.
On the other hand the church is a very powerful social network. It might be good for you to befriend the church (you don't have to go). You could follow Will B's advice by being honest yet caring.
If something catastrophic happens in the future, you will be in a position to get help (or be of help). Having a pre-organized social structure in the event of a disaster is a great place to donate time and resources.
If we ever had a earthquake or terrorist attack in my town, I would probably go offer my time and resources to my local bishop. Mormon's are efficient.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I agree with Will on this one. Tell him the truth. If you will feel comfortable doing it in person, do that, becaue it will mean that much more to the Bishop. But if not, I'd call him. It's better to do these things as "in person" as you can, I think. He sounds like he won't act like a weirdo if you tell him you prefer not to come to church, but I'm sure he'll really appreciate hearing your mom's story and knowing that he did the right thing by her.
Your family sounds so wonderful, Troy! You're really lucky to be so loved.
Also, I think James Bond is ridiculous, too.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I would go with the letter route. As of right now, I doubt the bishop expects anything from you. Like ketchupqueen said, it was just an invitation. Going in person would undoubtedly make him feel like there was greater hope of "saving" you and you'd be more likely to hear from them again. The bishop did something very kind, and I think it would be a very nice thing to let him know just how kind what he did was. But unless you're having second thoughts, you want to be careful that your thank isn't interpreted as anything other than a thank you.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Thanks for reading this. I think ketchupqueen had the right idea in her awesome post earlier.
Will, I wasn't so much hiding things about myself -- I didn't know what my mom had or hadn't told this Bishop with regard to my level of activity in the church at the time, and I was trying to be politic. I didn't necessarily want to say, "Listen, I'm a non-member, sorry," because I didn't want to cause embarrassment for her, in case she had told him otherwise.
It's hard to know how to react in these situations.
It turns out she did pretty much tell him the truth -- totally inactive, haven't been to church since I was a teenager, the whole thing. But it didn't seem like he knew that at the time. He didn't present it that way. He just said "You're LDS aren't you?"
And I suspect that was because he was trying to make me feel welcome, included, inside rather than outside, if you know what I mean.
I don't think I want to go do this in person. I think that could be interpreted like "Gee, this TL person SAYS he doesn't want to come back to church, but look where he is. Standing inside a church. Methinks he does not know his own mind. We'd better give him some EXTRA help."
I think a short note would be the most comfortable thing for *me* -- I just hope it isn't a copout. The thing is, I really do want this Bishop to know that the gesture was appreciated.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: And she said, "I've called every Bishop in every ward you've ever lived. But he's the only one who ever came to see you."
Your mom is awesome, and the LDS dude sounds like a nice guy, but this quote just kind of irritates me on a lot of different levels.
Changing your spiritual beliefs and going away from a church is extremely hard by itself, and haunts a lot of people for a long time. I can't imagine having the conviction and self-knowledge to tell my crying mom 'no'.
I don't say this as a way to call you a jerk, but more to note that I don't think I can tell my crying mommy no about nothing.
Good for you for staying true to yourself yet listening with an open heart to everyone. You are a good person.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
TL, I read your thread with great interest. It strikes a cord with me because of some of my own experiences in the LDS church.
First I will tell you what I think you ought to do - or at least think about it anyway. And then I will tell you my reasoning behind it.
So first off, yes, you ought to talk to this bishop again. And you ought to maintain contact with him. I’m not talking about necessarily being buddy buddy with him. What I’m talking about is knowing how to get in touch with him if you need to, and how he can get in touch with you if need be. Furthermore, you might think seriously about getting acquainted a little bit with the Elder’s Quorum president in that ward and the man who the bishop will probably ask to serve as your home teacher. Again, I’m talking about your being able to get in touch with these guys, and them knowing who you are and how to get in touch with you.
Yes, you should let them know at the outset that you are not interested in becoming active in the church.
Now my reasoning behind this is that it is always a good idea to have a circle (or network, if that’s a better term) of friends that you can call on for help if the need arises. You never know what is going to happen. Of course it is true that we all should be independent, take care of ourselves, stand on our own feet, and all that. And most of the time that is what happens. That’s as it should be. But like I said, you never know what’s going to happen.
So, I’m talking here about the church as a social network and not necessarily as the keepers of the moral and doctrinal flame, as it were.
Here is what happened to my family several years ago. I have a son about your age. (Let’s call him Joe.) Now, Joe feels about the same way about the church as you do. But whether or not he was active in the church was irrelevant to this incident. What was relevant is that we found ourselves in a small crisis and needed some help - right now.
One winter Joe was living in the Salt Lake area and was getting ready to move. I was scheduled to drive to Salt Lake and bring him home to Page, Az. Well, Joe did not have access to a phone so he had to walk several blocks to the nearest pay phone whenever he needed to call us.
The day before I was scheduled to leave Page I was expecting Joe to call so we could work out the details of where and when I was to meet him. Before I got the call our phone went dead. In fact, the phones in half the town of Page went dead - including the phone of Joe’s grandparents who live here also. (It turned out that the phone system was out for about 2 and half days)
By early evening I was starting to get worried. Actually I was starting to get frantic. I could well imagine how frustrating it was for Joe having to walk to the pay phone just to find out our phones were out of service, not knowing that they were going to be out all day, and not knowing who else to call collect. I didn’t know how many times he was going to have to walk to that phone, maybe thinking that surly this time the phones ought to be working again, just to get find out his hike was a waste of time again.
Sure, I had access to plenty of other phones in Page that were working, but I had no way of calling him because he didn’t have a phone. Well, I was the membership clerk in my ward. I also knew what stake and ward Joe was living in. What I finally did was go to my office, grab my directory of ward bishops and stake presidents, and I called Joe’s bishop. My plan was to see if he would please deliver a message to Joe telling him what the problem was with the phones and giving him a number in Page to call to leave me the details I needed.
There was nobody home at the bishop‘s house. So I called one of the counselors to the stake president thinking that I could get from him the name and number of one of the other leaders in Joe’s ward. Nobody home. Called the other counselor. Nobody home. So I called the Stake President. He was home, so I told him who I was and a brief description of the problem and asked him to give me the name and number of the Elder’s Quorum president or some other leader I could call. This stake president asked me where Joe lived. I told him and he said that, oh, that’s just a couple of blocks from his house so he would be glad to deliver the message himself.
Crisis solved.
The next afternoon, Joe told me that the stake president not only delivered the message but also drove Joe to his house (the stake president’s) and let Joe use his phone and then drove him home.
Of course, this was, by no stretch of the imagination, an earth shaking crisis. And we can even laugh about it now. But, at the time, it was a real pain in several sensitive parts of my person (and it wasn’t real fun for Joe either).
My point is that it is a good feeling to know that I’m part of a network that can be called upon to help during those rare times when circumstances get out of my control. I could give you other examples, both personal and incidents that happened to others, where this network has been helpful. (Specifically our Home Teaching system.) But I’ll let it go with just the phone incident.
Granted, you run the risk of some folks in the church in your area trying to motivate you into getting active in the church. If you are uncomfortable with that, then that could be a problem. But you are totally within your rights to let the bishop, and those other two guys I mentioned, know that you don’t want to be pestered with that aspect of the church. And they will most likely respect your wishes on that. (That is the way I treat my friends and acquaintances who are not interested in the church. And I don’t think I am all that different from most men who are active in the church.)
Basically all I’m saying is that it’s a good idea to stay in touch with the church, because you never know when you might need a friend. As a member of the church you are entitled to that. You are entitled to that also by virtue of the fact that your mother is a member.
I guess on an even more basic level I’m saying the no-man-is-an-island sort of thing. That we each need a circle of friends or an organization that can act as a support group when the need arises. I wouldn’t be surprised if most other churches and secular organizations have that sort of thing going on. I’m just more familiar with my church.
So, that is why I think it is a good idea to stay in touch with your bishop.
Posts: 631 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Oh yeah, I was also going to point out the other side of the coin. That is that, by staying in touch with whatever network or circle you are part of, you can sometimes be asked to be of service to others. And that’s a pretty good feeling too. Posts: 631 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
What a sweet story! The thing that I love most about it is the great relationship it shows you have with your mother. You know what? Whatever you decide to do about the Bishop, whether the church is or isn't true, and whether you stay inactive forever or go back tomorrow, none of that strikes me as being as important as the fact that you and your Mom have such a great relationship. Thanks for posting this.
By the way, I'm a member, though not very active right now. But I am a sincere believer. (I thought full disclosure would be appropriate, so you know where these comments are coming from.)
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I'm a member, and have served as the relief society president, so I've been in meetings with the branch president when less active people were discussed. It's been my experience that when a person says they aren't interested in coming to church and don't want home teachers that we leave them alone. We respect their wishes.
Granted, not all bishops or branch presidents are like that, but most are, and that's the ideal. From your description of the bishop, he'll likely be like that as well.
I vote for thanking him, like you planned, and letting him know exactly how you feel and what you want (or don't want). Honesty with him will save all of you time and frustration. And no, a note is not a cop-out. It'll do the job just fine.
(Personally, TL, I'm even more impressed by your thoughtfulness and consideration as you've shown in this thread. )
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Tatiana, his mother thinks he is a lost soul who needs to be saved. She is not willing to let him make his own choices on what's true. Which part of this is a great relationship?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I think the thing that people are reacting to here is that TL has shown an ability to recognize that his mother has demonstrated her love and caring and he recognizes it as such, even if it isn't exactly what he would want.
He also recognizes that the worst that has come out of her actions is a brief and not-too-unpleasant conversation with a man he has respect for.
He didn't actually give us details that would allow a judgment of what his mother is "willing" to "let" him do on his own. Some things that ARE great about their relationship did come through. She's torn up about him being inactive, he knows it, and yet they can still talk about it.
He knows it hurts her, but he also knows that she still loves him, and he loves her.
There's A LOT there that's great.
What you read into the situation requires you to have made several assumptions that don't really appear to be true.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Tatiana, his mother thinks he is a lost soul who needs to be saved. She is not willing to let him make his own choices on what's true. Which part of this is a great relationship?
Which part of this is a necessary or helpful comment?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think the story is adorable - you're watched out for and loved all the way around. If you feel the need to thank the bishop, you could do that. If you don't want him to invite you to anything anymore, tell him that you appreciate the invitation and now that you know when and where, you'll come if you feel the need.
I think it's very sweet all the way around - your mom for trying, the bishop for following up, and you for recognizing the act of love that it is. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
TL, I'll second Samuel Bush's & quidscribis comments. I'd simply give the Bishop a call on the phone and let him know your appreciation for responding to your Mom, and your feelings about religion right now. I'm in Bishopric meetings all the time, and what Samuel Bush recommended is right on the mark. Getting a call from your Home Teacher once a month isn't a big deal, so you should (at least for your Mom's sake) let them do that. That won't mean you have to go to church, or any activities, etc... But it will mean you are still in contact with "the network" (lol, thats a really cheesy way of viewing it), and your Mom will probably at least respect and appreciate you for that minimal contact.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Sep 2006
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So here's what I did about thanking the Bishop: Nothing.
I didn't call, I didn't send a note, I did nothing. I'm not sure why. I just sort of got busy doing other things, and even though it was on my 'to-do' list, it wasn't at the top of my to-do list, and it kept getting pushed closer and closer to the bottom of the list until I forgot about it completely.
One of my assistant managers at work is active LDS, and she and I have always been able to speak freely together about religion. She understands where I'm coming from in a way that most people don't -- because she was inactive for a long time, years I guess, before returning to the church. And I think that she felt the same way then that I do now. Most people don't understand this feeling, because once most people hear that you're a non-believer in the LDS church, they assume that you have hard feelings and weird motives -- LDS people have a hard time understanding that your family is LDS and you love your family and that you have respect for many of the people in the church and that even though you don't believe in Jesus, you still have something in common with them -- a shared culture and a shared history. Non-LDS people tend to assume that you're on their side now, and they feel free to bad mouth the church to you, and you find that they have no understanding of the people or the religion they seem to hate so much, and you end up trying to defend a church and a group of people to which you don't really belong. So you're in a weird middle area where everyone is suspicious of you -- at least everyone with an interest, one way or the other, in the LDS church.
It's a strange position to be in.
This manager went away for a while to have a kid, and just now (this past weekend) returned to work. Friday night during a casual conversation she said to me: "Bishop Sxxxxer says [whatever he says]"
And I said, "Bishop Sxxxxer is your Bishop? I met him once...." And I proceeded to tell her the whole story.
At one point she said, "It sounds like you want to believe." Meaning: In the LDS church.
And I said, "You know what? It would be nice to believe. But I just don't. And I can't fake it. I'm not Christian and I don't see how I could be convinced."
She suggested that I read the Book of Mormon again.
I said, "Meh."
And then yesterday I got a phone call. The name on the caller I.D. was a name I didn't recognize -- which was unusual.
"Hello?"
"Is this Troy Lance?"
"Yes."
"This is _____ _____"
"What can I do for you?"
"I'm calling on behalf of Bishop Sxxxxer."
"Oh?"
"He would like to set up an appointment to meet with you."
Me: (Nonplussed) "Okay?"
"How's Tuesday or Wednesday at 6:30?"
"Not good. I guess I don't mind meeting with the Bishop, but I have other obligations, I won't be available."
So we set an appointment for Sunday at noon.
Now I don't know what.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Don't go. They have absolutely no right to re-arrange your life in this way, and should be punished for trying; some wasted time waiting for a no-show is about right. Do not worry about rudeness; they are being incredibly, fantastically rude, and have forfeited any consideration.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
How on earth are they being rude? What the heck... I could have said No. Instead I said Yes. I don't get it.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I say go, and explain to him what you've said here, and to your mother. It sounds like before you've tried to be polite to him, feigning interest for the sake of being nice.
Go to the meeting, explain to him that you don't believe and you appreciate his caring efforts, but you'd like him to turn his attention elsewhere. Avoiding him more I think would be rude, given his probable honest efforts, and also unfair to him and you. If he STILL doesn't relent after you explain to him, then go KoM's route.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Don't expect King of Men to be rational when it comes to religion
It sounds like you're really going out of your way to hear them out, which is cool of you. And I think you're handling it really well by being honest about your feelings, and only saying yes when you really mean yes. Honestly, it seems to me that you don't need advice. Given your situation, you're being a class act.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TL: How on earth are they being rude? What the heck... I could have said No. Instead I said Yes. I don't get it.
They are intruding on your life; they are railroading you into accepting meetings that you are ambivalent about. If you're not ambivalent, why did you post the question? They are assuming that their religion, which you have thought long and hard about and believe false, is so important that they can willy-nilly rearrange your schedule to try to reconvert you, with the same old arguments you've heard before.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:they are railroading you into accepting meetings that you are ambivalent about.
He was invited somewhere. He accepted. How is that railroading?
quote: If you're not ambivalent, why did you post the question?
Ambivalence is not a reason to avoid discussing something with someone who is not ambivalent.
I'm not sure TL is ambivalent about his beliefs - he seems pretty unambivalent about them. He does seem ambivalent about the meeting. Asking for advice from friends seems like a pretty good response to such ambivalence.
TL would be absolutely justified in turning down such a request, or even canceling it in advance. But not choosing to do either does not mean he was railroaded. Have a little respect for TL.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
From everything you've said, it does sound like you want to believe. I highly suspect that's why you agreed to meet with him. It also sounds like you're not going to be convinced. A lot of what you're saying resonates with me and my experiences.
I think that meeting with them and entertaining these notions is asking for pain. You're taunting yourself. Do you honestly believe you can be convinced? If so, you should go. But from what you've said, that doesn't seem to be the case. So what is the point of going? Do you think that the result will be increased happiness or increased turmoil?
Then again, all of that is based on my own experiences and could quite possibly have nothing to do with you.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
My perspective is that you should do what you say you're going to do -- whatever that may be.
But the part that seemed to puzzle and interest you was why you said yes when (I think) you didn't want to go. Why do you think that was? Is that OK, or is there something you would like to do differently?
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'd go just out curiosity to see what the Bishop had to say. Perhaps he wants to give you a calling to push you into coming to church more often. Perhaps he wants to excommunicate you. Perhaps he just wants to shoot the breeze. But in any case, I'd feel compelled to go just out of curiosity.
But if you go and he does try to railroad you, don't let him, okay?
But I do want updates.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Excommunication is extremely unlikely. The LDS church does not excommunicate anyone for not being an active member.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yeah, but there was that time I filmed myself sacrificing a stray dog in the name of Satan while rubbing dog blood all over the Book of Mormon. Where would they have seen the video though? Mormons don't use the internet...
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Do not worry about rudeness; they are being incredibly, fantastically rude, and have forfeited any consideration.
This strikes me as ironically hilarious coming from KoM.
Yes, I'm sure this Bishop would be delighted to learn that Troy wants to come back to church, has found a testimony and wants to be fully active.
But something that I think doesn't always get grasped is that the Bishop has been given a responsibility and feels a desire to help each member of the war he presides over, whether or not that person chooses to be active, whether or not that person believes the doctrine. Bishops, and other members of the ward, in general want to show love and offer support, even if they know there is no hope of said person becoming active in the church. I really think that this Bishop (if he is anything like other Bishops I've associated with) wants to help in any way he can.
Troy, whatever your beliefs, you have my highest respect for your honesty, your respect and sincerity. Of course you are free to make whatever choice you are most comfortable with. It probably isn't difficult, though, to tell that I think you should go. At least this once.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oh. Was I not supposed to forward that to your bishop? (slow again -- that's in response to TL's video comment)
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Well, I'm going to go meet the Bishop. I agreed to do so because, if nothing else, it's an opportunity for me to finally thank him for inviting me / contacting me / etc. I will speak with him and I will be honest about my feelings about the church. I have no intention of becoming convinced to return to church.
I will update this thread with whatever happens.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:He was invited somewhere. He accepted. How is that railroading?
"Hi, I want a meeting with you. Is HH:MM on <date> convenient? When would be a good time?"
"Hi, would you be interested in a meeting with me?"
Do you see the difference?
quote:
quote: If you're not ambivalent, why did you post the question?
Ambivalence is not a reason to avoid discussing something with someone who is not ambivalent.
I think perhaps you misread my post; I was saying that TL was ambivalent about the meeting, not the belief.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
TL- I just wanted to say I understand how you feel about the church. I'm not LDS, but I used to be mainstream Christian and I really want to be again. But I just can't. I don't believe in Jesus, or God, and I really, really want to, but what can you do?
I don't have any advice, but I wanted to let you know you're not alone, and most of what you posted above really resonated with me.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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