posted
Something that I have run into in the past six or so weeks that I have been rediscovering my faith and catholic religion are people who don't have an understanding of faith, or an organized religion, or even a 'need for God'. And it's kinda perplexing to me, something I'm not sure how to deal with or address. Let me explain.
I was raised catholic, God was very much a part of my family, I did catechism every week, we faithfully went to church, and despite my disdain, I did pick up a lot of religion and a basic belief in God at the least. It was always a part of our life, and we participated in the church, lots of my friends were also part of the church, etc. Even when I wasn't a practicing catholic, I never lost my belief in God, and much of my value system and morals are based in this upbringing that involved God and the catholic church.
It didn't really dawn on me until later in life that not everyone has this kind of upbringing. Maybe in some areas of more religiousness, it's the norm and very prevelant. But from my experiences in college and life in general where I live, there are a lot of people that don't have that presence of God and religion that forms the basis of their life. And frankly, until I started going to church again and exploring this it wasn't really something I thought that much about.
However now that I am, I get a lot of questions about why I've gone back to the church. And I am discovering that a lot of who I am now, the beliefs I have, the morals and values I have are based in large part this religious upbringing I experienced. Not only that, but I am seeing that people who didn't have that religion in their early lives have different values and morals, a different outlook on life.
Two people in particular that I am interested in are my wife and oldest stepdaughter. My wife was exposed very minimally to religion, mostly by aunts and uncles. Her parents weren't religious, didn't go to church or teach her about God. Obviously I am hoping she goes with me on my journey in faith, and she is willing to explore with me at least a little bit. But I find that she knows little about christianity, and doesn't have the same kind of basis that I feel with my religion. I get the impression she is uncomfortable facing many of the values and morals of the church, almost as if she's afraid of them, or even afraid of confronting them. It's almost as if, to me, she's done things in life without reproach, or moral implication, and now that she's faced with this value system it's hard for her to assimilate. Not that she's a horrible person or done horrible things, but I don't think she's used to feeling bad or repentent for the things she's done in this world that conflict with God's teachings, or that are considered sins. She grew during the 70s and 80s and had a somewhat hippy flower child whatever feels good attitude. And that clashes a lot with being told you're a sinner and need to repent and ask forgiveness in order to get closer to God.
And I'm not sure how to deal with that, because it's second nature to me to understand the religious view. And it's also why I was never a hippy flowerchild that did things that made me feel good, I always had that moral conscience popping up that said "this is bad, don't do it". It's hard for me to grasp what she's going through.
The other person in particular is my oldest step daughter. She's had NO religious exposure, unfortunately, and she doesn't understand what Christianity is. All she knows is her judgemental grandmother and preconceived notions she gets from other people. She doesn't understand why I need to go to church, and is angry at the fact I'm going to begin with. She really doesn't understand the whole concept of faith, believing in something you can't see, accepting things in Christianity, etc. She thinks I'm crazy, and it's hard for me to explain to her. Especially when she doesn't want to take time to understand or even know the message. I really don't know even how to approach someone so cynical and against believing, I'm afraid of pushing her the other way. I'm not trying to convert her, but I'd at least like her to understand the message and what I'm believing, so I can maybe think about explaining the why. But it's like she doesn't even grasp the concept, and it's hard for me to know where to begin.
So I'm at a loss here on how to deal with either. If it wasn't so personal, I'd find it fascinating.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
My feeling is that you are welcome to share what you are going through, but don't expect them to come along.
I think...I think that when your sweetheart starts with something takes a signifigant portion of his heart, it can be unnerving. If your wife is nervous, I think the important thing could be to reinforce that you think she is a good person, and that she doesn't have to convert or believe along with you in order to still be part of you. I think you're doing fine, but I was thinking - it may be more important for your wife and step-daughter to both know that they have and will have your respect even if they do not understand or are not interested.
It makes it lonelier for you, I think. Finding one's faith is such a cool, amazing experience that of COURSE you want to share it with those you love. You can, too, and they should be happy for you and supportive of you. It is very likely that they will not be experiencing the same thing, though. I have seen several families who have found faith and joined the church, but it rarely happened for both parents or all the kids simultaneously. When it did happen, there was lots of respect around for everyone's choices involved.
There is a huge difference between hating oneself and resolving to repent of one's sins, but if someone doesn't feel or understand the difference, that can be hard to believe, I think.
So, my two cents. Continue to show respect and love, don't expect anything other than support and respect for yourself, share when there's an opportunity but be sensitive to how they are feeling, and pray for opportunities and for guidance.
I believe that even with all the miracles the Lord has done, the biggest miracles are when someone's heart is changed. We can pray for these kinds of miracles, but we can't plan for them to happen for other people. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I think in the case of someone who is acting like your step daughter, there is not much you can do (other than love her.) You can and should still practice your faith, and if she criticizes you for it, you should tell her that she is free to make her own decisions but you are free to do so as well, and you have chosen this. Getting into an argument over it is not going to help her perception of religious people; I think it is best to let your life tell the story of your religion, in the way you treat yourself and others, and love her, and that is that. Don't do anything you would not normally do to try and make her understand, but don't NOT do anything you would normally do to accomodate her discomfort with your religion, either. It's your religion and your home and you should practice it just as you would if she was not there (although of course you could occasionally still invite her to church with you if you wanted to and she was in a non-hostile mood, and make sure she knows there is no pressure and that she can say "no"-- and then leave it at that if she does.) At that age she is pretty much an adult and forcing her to do anything religious when she has not been exposed to it all her life would probably do more harm than good-- while the example of a life well and faithfully lived may do much in the long run to show her what faith can do if she ever decides she needs it in her life.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:It's almost as if, to me, she's done things in life without reproach, or moral implication...
I doubt very much this is the case, or I would have to wonder what you see in her at all! You'll have to engage in some give and take in the assimilation department.
quote:Not that she's a horrible person or done horrible things, but I don't think she's used to feeling bad or repentent for the things she's done in this world that conflict with God's teachings, or that are considered sins.
Try to remember that many people don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. Your wife and step-daughter probably take some pride in having created their own ethical value systems. If they see you as threatening it I could understand a hostile reaction, especially from your step-daughter (she sounds like she's in high school or college, is that correct?).
EDIT, because I forgot to add my best wishes for you and your family.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Another one of the things about religion that frustrates me. Why follow a series of teachings that tells you your loved ones are bad? If you know your loved ones are good people, it makes sense to me to believe what your experiences tell you.
Regardless of my frustration with religion's insistence on separating people, I hope you don't let your concerns or doubts mess up your relationship with your wife or stepdaughter.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Why follow a series of teachings that tells you your loved ones are bad?
I don't think most religions teach this. I know that from my experience, Catholicism (the religion in question) is heavy on "love the sinner, hate the sin."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Christianity doesn't work for everybody, but your stepdaughter should still be open-minded about it.
For me, I always had a hard time understanding people who believed so strongly in God. I always thought that somewhere in the backs of their minds, they must know that God's not real. But as I've grown up, I've forced myself to actually put myself in their shoes and understand what it's like to believe in God, and that helps me understand so many people. This is what your daughter should be doing, if she wants to understand you.
Also keep in mind that your stepdaughter and wife may have (most probably have) morals -- and even faith -- that comes from something totally unrelated to Christianity or to any religion. Everyone believes in and has faith in something, even if they think they're atheists.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:It's almost as if, to me, she's done things in life without reproach, or moral implication, and now that she's faced with this value system it's hard for her to assimilate.
I strongly suspect that this is a load of bull, to be honest with you.
I don't think it's possible for someone to make it to the age of five without doing things in life with reproach or moral implication. The concept that "moral implication" is an attribute only accorded by religion is rather insulting, don't you think?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I probably have a lot in common with your wife. As I imagine you've gleaned from my posts, I am a bit of a "hippie flower child" myself (albeit an aging one). Sin, for me, is not necessarily about what the Church has decided are dos and don'ts. It is about whats hurts other people and what damages my my relationship to God.
I was not raised in a particularly religious household. We didn't go to church regularly and when we did, it wasn't the Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, I had a big chip on my shoulder about the Catholic Church (still do about a lot of things). But from as early as I can remember, I had a relationship with God. I knew God was present in my life.
My moral framework is not one I got from the Church, though I believe it is not in conflict witht the Church. I don't think that the Church is necessary for one to be a moral person, though I do think it is a support and enormous help in staying in relationship with God and in remembering who God wants me to be.
Listen to the advice from kq and kat (all female theists who start their names with a lower case k are very wise - or possibly the same person). Be who you are, let the Church be a support in that. Reassure your wife and step-daughter of your love and need for them. Don't argue or push - people need to find their own way.
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quote:Everyone believes in and has faith in something, even if they think they're atheists.
I find the "even if they think their atheists" part (yes, italics mine) to be somewhat insulting and belittling. It's no better than someone who says all those people who"think" they believe in God are really lying to themselves.
Aside from personal issues I have with often poorly applied labels like "atheist" and "agnostic", I believe in and have faith in things that are not "God" in any meaningful sense. However, my views on God are very clear to me. They are not something I merely "think" I believe, but something I genuine do believe. I'm also very clear on things I emphatically don't believe (the typical Christian God being only one of them). You may not have intended to belittle my beliefs, but your wording sure seems to.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I find the "even if they think their atheists" part (yes, italics mine) to be somewhat insulting and belittling.
I suspect what was meant to be said was "Everyone believes in and has faith in something, even if they think they're faithless." ("Atheist", I'd say, is definitely not a synonym for "faithless.")
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Just love and respect them and be a good example of what faith is. People who are like me and find aspects of religion to be an anathema will be driven mad or driven away by too much preaching and lecturing so it's best to live by example and to show the good things about your faith through your conduct and kindness for them....
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Still, depending on how you define faith, I very much disagree with his statement. If you equate faith with trust defining it as "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing", than sure, I'll let the statement slide. If you define faith as "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" then I strongly disagree that I have any faith. Some might argue that, and if need be I can explain why I don't have that kind of faith.
Or if you go a step further and use the following definition: "The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will" then I most certainly have no faith whatsoever.
And Tres, if you're right, and he equates the word "atheist" with "faithless", then, again, depending on how you define faith, I'll either disagree or agree.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:People who are like me and find aspects of religion to be an anathema will be driven mad or driven away by too much preaching and lecturing so it's best to live by example and to show the good things about your faith through your conduct and kindness for them....
I agree with this. There are some people I feel I can't even talk to because every time I do, they inject some comment that feels aimed at converting me. On the other hand, there are many religious people I adore and with whom I can have long thoughtful discussions about religion becausue I feel the goal in those conversations is to share perspectives rather than "The Truth".
Reading your posts on Hatrack, you come across to me as a forceful person. I think I also tend to be a forceful person. I think that forceful personalities often fall in to the first category even when they're trying to be in the second. I think the best thing you can do is that when you talk to your family, only do so in gentle terms about how you feel this is right for you. Personally, I would find many of the statements in your opening to post to be alienating and divisive. I think a truth in life is that the only person you can ever truly change is yourself. I don't think you should try to pressure your family to convert or even to accept your re-conversion. If your conversion is handled gently and does not create negative experiences for your family, I believe they will eventually accept your conversion even if they don't convert themselves.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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You want your wife and stepdaughter to experience your faith, with the hopes that they will see the light and convert. Are you equally willing to honestly and openly consider that their beliefs are correct, and that you could convert to their way?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Everyone believes in and has faith in something, even if they think they're atheists.
I find the "even if they think their atheists" part (yes, italics mine) to be somewhat insulting and belittling. It's no better than someone who says all those people who"think" they believe in God are really lying to themselves.
Aside from personal issues I have with often poorly applied labels like "atheist" and "agnostic", I believe in and have faith in things that are not "God" in any meaningful sense. However, my views on God are very clear to me. They are not something I merely "think" I believe, but something I genuine do believe. I'm also very clear on things I emphatically don't believe (the typical Christian God being only one of them). You may not have intended to belittle my beliefs, but your wording sure seems to.
We're saying the same thing, essentially. I didn't mean to say that you actually DO believe in God even if you THINK you don't -- I meant that even if you don't believe in God, you still have faith in things that have nothing to do with God. Science, history, literature, nature, love...appreciation of all those things requires a little leap of faith.
Therefore, religious people shouldn't think that those without religion are necessarily wanting of a fatih.
I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
(Just so we know, for me, I believe in God, though not connected with any particular religion. None of them appeal to me and I wasn't raised in any of them.)
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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Personally, I would probably not bring up the religious details at all, instead waiting for them to inquire about them if they are interested, which they will be more open to doing if they aren't afraid of getting a lecture or sermon every time the subject of religion comes up. At the same time you may be able to find a common ground on some spiritual aspects of life without even having to bring religion into the discussion. At least this way you can try to share a common view on some things even if you take a different path in how you see them.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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Your wording did not say the samething and was a bit offensive. Your clarification of what you meant does sound like the same sentiment, but your words did not reflect that sentiment.
quote:I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
Do you let go of your beliefs any time they become burdensome? I doubt it. Why do you deny atheists the same integrity?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: You want your wife and stepdaughter to experience your faith, with the hopes that they will see the light and convert. Are you equally willing to honestly and openly consider that their beliefs are correct, and that you could convert to their way?
This is not correct. I would like my wife to attend mass with me and be able to come to church. It's not like she doesn't believe in God, she just doesn't have any real experience with faith and/or religion. I do not need her to convert to catholicism, although that would be great. I would just like to see her grow in her faith and become closer to God.
As far as my stepdaughter, I do not want to convert her either. Nor have I ever spoken to her about my religion, or tried to push her one way or the other. I have tried to take the opposite approach, and let her come to me. I think part of the problem with her is she's afraid I'm going to turn into a christian nazi or something, which I don't want to do anyway. But as soon as she found out, she got very angry and argumentative and I've basically just stayed away. She is young, in her early 20s, and she doesn't live at home. I'm not looking to convert her, as I said, but it would be nice if she had an open attitude and at least spent a bit of time trying to understand what I believe. Even if she decided not to believe it.
Part of the issue with my stepdaughters, both of them, is that I do feel somewhat responsible for not giving them any kind of religious education. The older one was in her early teens when I came on the scene, and was pretty hard to deal with period on any issues. At the same time, I wasn't sure what I was doing either at the time so I never broached the issue. With my youngest step daughter, she at least attended bible school with my sister-in-law when she was younger, so she has an idea of religion. I think that she is probably more open to finding out what my religion is about, and I think I've got more time to teach her if she's interested, she's still young. I feel somewhat that I failed the older one, and it saddens me that she's so angry and against religion. My take has been to just not shove it down her throat and hope that eventually I can warm her up to at least learning about my faith.
And as far as considering the opposite, my wife does believe in God, she's just not sure how. My stepdaughter has shown she's anti-christian so far, but I'm pretty sure that it's not because she's examined it and decided she doesn't believe. I think she's just angry and rebellious and just anti-religion. I will not consider that side because I'm not interested in being angry and rebellious and anti-religion. As far as considering that there is no God, I've been there and done that and that was frankly never an option for me.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I don't think it's possible for someone to make it to the age of five without doing things in life with reproach or moral implication. The concept that "moral implication" is an attribute only accorded by religion is rather insulting, don't you think?
I didn't say she's done EVERYTHING in life without reproach or moral implication. I said there are some things she'd done that she did without reproach or moral implication, and I don't think she necessarily thinks that those things were wrong or needed repentance. Clearly, everyone in society takes on the basic morals and values of society; no killing, stealing, etc. But some things that society of today and/or yesterday doesn't have a problem with, I do because of my religious upbringing. She doesn't necessarily have a problem with those things, and I think she has a problem with addressing those areas and dealing with a religion that doesn't agree with things in her life she never had a problem with.
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Another one of the things about religion that frustrates me. Why follow a series of teachings that tells you your loved ones are bad? If you know your loved ones are good people, it makes sense to me to believe what your experiences tell you.
My religion doesn't tell me that my loved ones are bad. My religion has a different set of values than what my wife has lived by. And I believe, a different set of values than society in general. I don't think my wife or daughter are bad people at all. I think my wife is a good person. The differences between my values and faith, and the values of people not raised with faith is fascinating to me. Not only fascinating, but dealing with those differences has become a delicate issue, to say the least.
Finally, I'm not looking to convert or judge or preach to anyone. I just want to be able to keep up with this exploration of faith without people seeing me as someone who wants to convert or judge or preach.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
Ironically, this does more to demean your own sense of being a "believer" than it does to cheapen my own philosophy. What does "belief" mean in a deathbed context anyway?
On the other hand, do you not see how this is related to "I believe that no one is a true believer if they really consider the facts in the light of reason." Do you not see how both are equally offensive?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
Ironically, this does more to demean your own sense of being a "believer" than it does to cheapen my own philosophy. What does "belief" mean in a deathbed context anyway?
On the other hand, do you not see how this is related to "I believe that no one is a true believer if they really consider the facts in the light of reason." Do you not see how both are equally offensive?
This reminded me of the quote,
""There are no atheists in fox holes" isn't an argument against atheism, its an argument against fox holes."
I feel there is definitely some truth to that Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I really didn't want this to turn into an arugment of believers vs non believers. There are plenty of threads to do that in. I just wanted to discuss the differences with people not raised with religion and how to reconcile believers and non believers.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: You want your wife and stepdaughter to experience your faith, with the hopes that they will see the light and convert. Are you equally willing to honestly and openly consider that their beliefs are correct, and that you could convert to their way?
This is not correct. I would like my wife to attend mass with me and be able to come to church. It's not like she doesn't believe in God, she just doesn't have any real experience with faith and/or religion. I do not need her to convert to catholicism, although that would be great. I would just like to see her grow in her faith and become closer to God.
As far as my stepdaughter, I do not want to convert her either. ...
Part of the issue with my stepdaughters, both of them, is that I do feel somewhat responsible for not giving them any kind of religious education.
Interesting. I said that you want your family to experience your faith, with the hope that they will convert. You said that you were not trying to convert them. A fine point perhaps, but I was suggesting that you wanted to share your beliefs with them, thinking that they might change their minds on your own, while you wanted to make it clear that you were not trying to actively convert them.
Is teaching them about your religion a positive thing, but converting them a negative one? Isn't the ultimate goal of educating them in your faith for them to come over to the "Truth" and believe as you do?
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems like you view an attempt to convert your family as some kind of negative, almost an aggressive act, something you aren't willing to do.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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You reconcile them by respecting them. Your faith is between you and the thing you believe in. Live your life in an admirable, upright way, and you may attract people to your way of thinking. Or maybe not. But it's the only way to handle differences of this sort. You know in your heart that what you believe is "right" for you at a fundamental level... there is no way to communicate this to others beyond your manner and actions. Words do not suffice, and indeed will get you in trouble.
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote: I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life
Okay, I'm sorry I put that in there. I could explain what I meant, but it doesn't have to do with the thread topic.
EDIT: I don't know how to explain this in a way that wouldn't be offensive... Let me just say...if you were about to die, wouldn't you just be hoping, just for a second, that it wouldn't be the absolute end? I don't mean to attack your atheism; I NEVER meant to, actually, and I'm very sorry for the earlier confusion. I'll try to make my wording clearer in the future.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Why follow a series of teachings that tells you your loved ones are bad?
I don't think most religions teach this. I know that from my experience, Catholicism (the religion in question) is heavy on "love the sinner, hate the sin."
Yes, but how many people actually follow that ideal?
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: I agree with this. There are some people I feel I can't even talk to because every time I do, they inject some comment that feels aimed at converting me. On the other hand, there are many religious people I adore and with whom I can have long thoughtful discussions about religion becausue I feel the goal in those conversations is to share perspectives rather than "The Truth".[/QB]
Yeah, exactly. I've had some wonderful and profound conversations with deeply religious people and been better for it, because they respected me and were more interested in explaining their views and listening to mine than trying to "save me." Interestingly, those people have almost always been non-Christian. Thus my question above. This isn't meant as a snide nitpick at Christians, as many Christians I've through Hatrack have been quite pleasant. Sadly, your brethren in Christ weren't as nice. =/
posted
I don't think people live any ideal to the letter. That seems like a poor method of judging the ideal.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life
Okay, I'm sorry I put that in there. I could explain what I meant, but it doesn't have to do with the thread topic.
EDIT: I don't know how to explain this in a way that wouldn't be offensive... Let me just say...if you were about to die, wouldn't you just be hoping, just for a second, that it wouldn't be the absolute end? I don't mean to attack your atheism; I NEVER meant to, actually, and I'm very sorry for the earlier confusion. I'll try to make my wording clearer in the future.
Then perhaps you've simply overstated your supposition. I do "hope" that death isn't "the end". In at least one way, I actually believe it isn't "the end", but that belief has absolutely nothing to do with God in any traditionally defined sense. God is certainly not a prerequisite for there to be "something" after death.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Tara: Let me just say...if you were about to die, wouldn't you just be hoping, just for a second, that it wouldn't be the absolute end?
I'm sorry, but I still find that condescending. The idea that someone who has spent their entire life as an atheist would suddenly, in the moment just before their death, think, "Okay, I take it all back!" is still implying that atheists feel somehow emptier or less secure in their beliefs than theists. And I think that's rubbish.
Saying that an atheist will let go of their entire belief system when death approaches--whether on their deathbed or in a foxhole--is an insult. In the moment before your death, what do you suppose the chances are you're going to suddenly say, "I was all wrong, I'm headed for oblivion and nothing awaits me after this!" Why should an atheist be less secure in their beliefs than you are in yours?
(Lest you think you've offended me personally, I will point out that I am agnostic, not atheist. My worldview would not be shattered to find proof that there is or is not a God, or gods, or spirits, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster, or whatever else. Do I hope that there's a wonderful afterlife awaiting me? Well, no. Not really. I fully expect that there's nothing but oblivion after this, and I've long since made my peace with that idea. What's the sense in fearing that which you'll never be conscious of experiencing?)
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by stihl1: I really didn't want this to turn into an arugment of believers vs non believers. There are plenty of threads to do that in. I just wanted to discuss the differences with people not raised with religion and how to reconcile believers and non believers.
I didn't think it was turning into such an arguement. However, I don't think it's out of place to politely raise objection to insensitive (or at best imprecise) language.
As for reconciling believers and non-believers, the best way to do that is for neither side to push. You mention that you strongly desire that your daughter show interest in understanding your beliefs. Have you given her the same degree of interest in understanding her beliefs? If not, then it's not exactly an attempt at reconcilliation as much as it is self-justification or subtle proselytization. You're focusing on something that you find lacking in them (that they don't understand you or appreciate something you find dear). Nobody likes to feel like they've been found wanting. If you've made the offer of sharing and they've shown a lack of interest, the best you can do is love them and respect their choices and make do with whatever natural exposure to the subject they get through observing you. /my 2 cents
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:But some things that society of today and/or yesterday doesn't have a problem with, I do because of my religious upbringing. She doesn't necessarily have a problem with those things, and I think she has a problem with addressing those areas and dealing with a religion that doesn't agree with things in her life she never had a problem with.
I would say, perhaps excessively generously, that she doesn't necessarily have a problem addressing those areas, but rather has a problem with a religion she doesn't believe -- but you do -- telling her that things she doesn't regret doing are bad.
My brother is gay. My mother is Baha'i. He doesn't have a problem with religion, and certainly doesn't feel guilty about being gay, but he is rather hostile about the Baha'i Faith's attitude towards homosexuality -- not because he particularly cares what they think God thinks, but because it's poisoned our mother's opinion of all his relationships.
quote:if you were about to die, wouldn't you just be hoping, just for a second, that it wouldn't be the absolute end?
For most atheists, the alternative is generally said to be Hell. Is that an improvement?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
stihl, This is probably just a quirk of the way that you wrote this, but, to me, you are coming off as possibly judgmental here. It kinda sounds like you are looking down on your wife and step-daughter. You may not have that attitude at all, but I'm just saying that you sort of come off that way to me. If you come off the same way to your wife and step-daughter, it is understandable that you'd be met with less than enthusiasm.
Also, keep in mind that while your religion may fit for you, it may seem like a bad thing to others. I find how you seem to be describing your religion as somewhat negative and it is definitely not something that I'd want to adopt.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Verily the Younger: I'm sorry, but I still find that condescending. The idea that someone who has spent their entire life as an atheist would suddenly, in the moment just before their death, think, "Okay, I take it all back!" is still implying that atheists feel somehow emptier or less secure in their beliefs than theists. And I think that's rubbish.
I don't know. I'm kind of leaning in that direction at the moment, although I don't think I would quite describe myself as an Atheist. While I don't think I would suddently change my mind if I was in a deathbed situation, I suspect that I would at least be thinking something along the lines of "I sure hope I was wrong about that afterlife thing."
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ricree101: I don't know. I'm kind of leaning in that direction at the moment, although I don't think I would quite describe myself as an Atheist. While I don't think I would suddently change my mind if I was in a deathbed situation, I suspect that I would at least be thinking something along the lines of "I sure hope I was wrong about that afterlife thing."
Maybe so, but the assertion was not that some atheists--or whatever it is you consider yourself to be--would feel that way. The assertion was:
quote:Originally posted by Tara: I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
(Italics mine.)
And frankly, I think that's condescending. It's no better than saying, "I believe that no Christian really believes all that Jesus stuff deep down inside," or "I believe that no Jew will really deny Christ when it comes right down to it."
Some atheists do have doubts about their beliefs. So do some Christians and some Jews. But that doesn't mean that everyone who describes themselves with one of those labels is just waiting for the right moment to abandon everything they believe in.
Edit: Okay, I should clarify that I don't mean you are waiting for the right moment. I meant that was Tara's assertion, intentionally or otherwise, and that is what I'm arguing against. All I'm saying about your uncertainty about your own beliefs is that it is neither evidence for nor against either position.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I don't think people live any ideal to the letter. That seems like a poor method of judging the ideal.
While I'm sure some people do indeed live by this, after hearing of teenagers taken to places like Love In Action against their will and forcefully treated for being gay, I do wonder.
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quote:I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
I don't think anyone has pointed out yet that there is a difference between belief and wanting to believe because you are scared that something isn't true.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I have pictures of us together, in the company of others who have met both of us before. I can disprove this one. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I do however believe that no one is an nonbeliever in their very last moments of life.
I don't think anyone has pointed out yet that there is a difference between belief and wanting to believe because you are scared that something isn't true.
Well, I did, although somewhat obliquely, above in my 6:28 post. What I was implying is that "belief" is generally measured by faithfulness and action. To grant that same term to someone who is simply scared of the alternative seem to seriously cheapen it.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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When my mom died 12 years ago, she died a non-believer. My dad remained and remains a non-believer, as do I.
She stared death in the face, and aside from a little drooling, did not flinch. There was no sudden deathbed conversion for her. When we attended her funeral, we felt the rabbi's words were all a bunch of self-serving pablum, and felt nothing special or spiritual about the ceremony (then...or since).
Sorry to spill over your apple cart, but you have to admit it was balanced rather precariously...
Posts: 1862 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it seems like you view an attempt to convert your family as some kind of negative, almost an aggressive act, something you aren't willing to do.
Because frankly, I'm not looking to convert anyone. As I said, it would be nice if my wife would go to church with me and maybe somehow get a better understanding and/or relationship with God. She doesn't have to convert, I'd just like my exploration in faith to rub off on her and maybe bring her closer to God. As far as my stepdaughter goes, I'd like it if she would at the very least have an understanding of what Christianity believes, sees a positive model of Christianity, and at least see that the negative view she has now isn't the only one. If some of what I'm doing rubs off on her as well, that would be great. Like I said, I feel somewhat responsible for at least introducing the stepkids to christianity. So far I haven't done that, and I feel somewhat that I failed in doing so. That doesn't mean I have to make them both catholics. Just introduce them to what it means, where they go from there is up to them.
Honestly, I do see the term 'convert' as a negative term, having been the target of other evangelical Christians trying to 'convert' me in the past. I see my task as a good catholic to represent the faith well, be there to inform and educate, but not push anyone into what they don't want. I've always viewed religion as a personal thing, not something to try to sell someone on. And I don't necessarily think my choice of religion fits everyone, nor should it.
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: As for reconciling believers and non-believers, the best way to do that is for neither side to push. You mention that you strongly desire that your daughter show interest in understanding your beliefs. Have you given her the same degree of interest in understanding her beliefs?
I don't strongly desire her to show interest. I think it would be nice if she wasn't violently angry with me for making a personal choice that has nothing to do with her, and if she had an open mind about it. Yes it would be great if I could show her what I believe. But at this point I can't even talk to her about anything because she's so angry and against it. And she doesn't have any beliefs, other than being anti-christian and angry.
I need to be clear here. I haven't tried to talk to her at all about anything. I never approached her or announced anything to anyone about religion. So far, she found out that I'm going to church and that my wife is going, and is very angry and rude and argumentative about it. My response has been to tell her I'm not arguing about it, and if she wants to talk about it like a normal person I'd be more than willing. That's it. She gives my wife a lot of grief about going to church with me and doing the very little bit that we've done so far. Frankly, I'm not sure when we will even be able to talk again because of her reaction.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: stihl, This is probably just a quirk of the way that you wrote this, but, to me, you are coming off as possibly judgmental here. It kinda sounds like you are looking down on your wife and step-daughter. You may not have that attitude at all, but I'm just saying that you sort of come off that way to me. If you come off the same way to your wife and step-daughter, it is understandable that you'd be met with less than enthusiasm.
Also, keep in mind that while your religion may fit for you, it may seem like a bad thing to others. I find how you seem to be describing your religion as somewhat negative and it is definitely not something that I'd want to adopt.
I couldn't disagree more. I think you look at my religion as negative, which is a suprise to me since I really haven't said a whole lot about my religion. I don't see anything I've written which has a negative connotation to it at all. Most religions have higher moral standards and values than the rest of society, and most Christians believe the sin and repentance thing.
If I were judgemental of my wife I wouldn't have ever started a relationship with her. I've always taken a stance that I don't care what she did in the past, and honestly I don't want to know. Just as long as she respects me, her kids and our relationship now. She has always done so, I have never doubted her or our love. As far as my stepdaughter goes, I'm not condescending or judgemental to her at all either. Frankly, I'm quite proud of her and how she's turned out as an adult. I've told her so, and our relationship up to now has been the best it ever was.
I started my return to my church as a personal thing. I didn't think my wife would go along to begin with. And I never intended to include or convert anyone. I always took this as a personal journey, and something I needed to do for myself, not for anyone else. My wife volunteered to come to church with me because she wanted to stand by me in this. I never asked. My stepdaughter decided to put herself into the situation before I ever intended to even mention to her I was even going to church, and she has done so in a negative way that has suprised me.
It is fascinating to me the difference between people who have a religious background and someone who doesn't, and how the people who don't approach faith. That's not condescending or negative. I find that my wife's reluctance to address the idea of repentance interesting, and frankly I don't think she understands the concept. I am repentant for my sins of the past, without necessarily regretting them. I think my wife doesn't quite grasp the difference there. And I think the experiences with religion that she has had are very much different than the beliefs I have, and that maybe that gets in the way a little bit.
And certainly, no one has come to her and said "Hey you're a sinner! Repent the past or burn in hell!" That's not how my religion works, to begin with, and she hasn't done much more than go to church and speak to the priest with me a few times. And I'm not looking for her to confess all her sins or become a new person or change her life. I have tried to explain the concepts of repenting and confession and asking for forgiveness. As I said, she doesn't necessarily see some of the things in her life as regrettable or that she needs to repent for them. I am not asking her to regret anything or repent. I do know I have never done the same things, or similar things because of my values and morals would have told me not to. And it just goes against what I believe. That doesn't mean I've been perfect, and I'm sure someone else could probably see my choices and the things I did as immoral, etc. I can believe that without judging anyone. It doesn't make me better, just different. And I haven't said anything different here.
Anyway, the point is she sees how I believe about these things and that the church stresses confession and repentance and forgiveness, and I think that she doesn't understand that, maybe fears that a bit. I don't need her to completely agree with it, I'm just curious as to how to show her that it's not a bad thing. I think it might just be something that takes time for her to understand or grow on, or not. I think she fears that the church teaching repentance and asking for forgiveness means the church members will be judgemental, or the priests will be judgemental, etc. And looking from the outside I can understand that. But from my experience, that's not how it is.
And in the end, if my wife decided she didn't want to believe in God or Christianity or continue with me, that would probably sadden me. But I'd have to respect her and leave it at that. I would hope that it wouldn't affect us negatively, but it's a real possibility. I think the fact that she has been open to this so far is a good thing, and a sign that she doesn't want it to be a negative in our relationship. And I don't think it will come to that. Like I said, if all that comes out of this she grows a little closer to God then that would be a great thing, imo.
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: How do you reconcile your differences with, say, Moslems? Or Mormons? Or Mennonites?
I don't live with Muslims, mormons or mennonites. Nor do I believe it to be the same issue, as those are all faiths. They believe in a religion, in something that cannot be proven or seen. That requires faith. I don't think that someone who doesn't have a faith, or doesn't understand the concept of faith, as the same as a faith. If you don't believe, you don't believe. I understand that. But I often find that people who don't believe, don't understand how someone who does have faith believes. With someone of another faith, I am at least on a level playing field because they have faith in an unseen God or religion. For me at least, there is a bigger difference with someone who doesn't believe in any faith, and I find those differences interesting.
And that still doesn't address the other issue of morals and values. Not that someone who isn't religious isn't moral or have high values. But often those who are religious have a different set of morals than society in general. I don't agree with abortion because of my religious beliefs, whereas in the American society it's legal and not necessarily immoral. (PLEASE, no abortion debates here, that's not the point). I wouldn't consider an abortion because it's an affront to God and human life. There are things that I wouldn't do because I find them to be sinful, and go against my values, and I'd be concerned with offending God by making those choices. Someone who doesn't believe in God or doesn't have a religious background aren't necessarily going to be concerned with sin and upsetting God. They could certainly be moral and avoid doing certain things because they are in conflict with their morals, but they aren't going to have that religious connotation to them. You can be a good moral person and an outstanding member of society. But to me, at least, someone who has a further background of a religion or belief in God, there is a bit of a difference as to why they are a good moral person and an outstanding member of society. And what I've discovered as I return to my faith is that I share a common ground with other members of my faith I never knew was there. Or didn't recognize.
And of course, to head things off, that is neither bad nor good nor does it make me better or worse. Just different.
My best friend happens to be a mormon, and I've had great conversations with him about his religion and mine. I've also discussed this question with him. He was raised not in the mormon faith, but another, and has had similar experiences with people not raised with a faith. Like I said above, I seem to have more of a common ground with him than I do with someone who has no background in faith or religion at all. And he agrees.
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: You reconcile them by respecting them. Your faith is between you and the thing you believe in. Live your life in an admirable, upright way, and you may attract people to your way of thinking. Or maybe not. But it's the only way to handle differences of this sort. You know in your heart that what you believe is "right" for you at a fundamental level... there is no way to communicate this to others beyond your manner and actions. Words do not suffice, and indeed will get you in trouble.
This, along with the wisdom of the three k's above seem to be the wisest and bestest to me so far.
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Because frankly, I'm not looking to convert anyone. ... I've always viewed religion as a personal thing, not something to try to sell someone on. And I don't necessarily think my choice of religion fits everyone, nor should it.
If it's a personal thing, and you realize that your choice may not fit them, why not just accept that they have their own beliefs, which are different than yours, and leave it at that?
You keep mentioning that you feel like you failed in your job to educate them about religion. It sounds to me that you don't mind that they're not Catholic, you just feel guilty for not fulfilling your duty to "show them the way."
Is it really about their faith, or is about your feeling that you need to do more? What I'm getting at, I suppose, is that if, when you get right down to it, it's not so much about their beliefs anyway -since you admit that it's cool if they never convert- maybe you just have a feeling that you should connect with them better. If that's the case, you might be able to better connect with them in a non-religious way.
Heck, maybe instead of you telling them about your faith, you should offer to really learn about what they believe. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:She doesn't have to convert, I'd just like my exploration in faith to rub off on her and maybe bring her closer to God.
What's the distinction?
quote:They could certainly be moral and avoid doing certain things because they are in conflict with their morals, but they aren't going to have that religious connotation to them.
So...? Do you find your wife's morals to be lacking?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Most religions have higher moral standards and values than the rest of society, and most Christians believe the sin and repentance thing.
This is revealing. I agree that most members of most religions believe they are following a "higher moral standard", but how many of those would recognize any of the others as having an equally high moral standard. The point is, for every single religion, the vast, VAST, majority of "the rest of society" is made up of the religious, just that they are the religious of other religions. Therefore, the phrase "Most religions have higher moral standards and values than the rest of society" seems to be to be a paradox. It's demonstrably impossible. The sad thing is that where so many of the religious seem to agree is that whatever their code, it's at least higher than those compass-less atheists.
Clearly I know nothing about your daughter or your relationship with her except what you've posted. I'm beginning to suspect that she's not wholly unjustified if she feels your respect for her and her ability to make her own choices is threatened by your increased religiousity. It seems clear to me that you regard those for whom religion isn't as important as it is for you as somehow lacking. On the other hand, if she's really screaming and irrational about it, then it seems likely you and she have problems that have nothing to do with religion as a root cause.
I know that when I left my church, I wondered about my other family members' opinion of me, knowing what their religion teaches them. The family members I still get along with are the ones that respect my choices as an adult. I'm sure some of them are heartbroken that I don't believe anymore. Others are probably sure I've damned myself in some way or another. I can live with that as long as they keep it to themselves. Not that they have to keep their religion to themselves. My aunt next door is very active in her church and frequently talks about it. I recognize this as part of her and accept it. She seems to recognize that I don't share this particular joy with her as part of myself. We get along fine. If she pressured me into going to church with her, she'd find our relationship strained to whatever degree she chose to strain it. Likewise, if I chose to try to talk her out of her church, it would be strained to the degree I chose to strain it. We both value the relationship itself for what it is too much to risk damaging it by trying to change the other person. (At least that's how I see it. I can't really speak for my aunt.)
quote:I need to be clear here. I haven't tried to talk to her at all about anything. I never approached her or announced anything to anyone about religion. So far, she found out that I'm going to church and that my wife is going, and is very angry and rude and argumentative about it. My response has been to tell her I'm not arguing about it, and if she wants to talk about it like a normal person I'd be more than willing. That's it. She gives my wife a lot of grief about going to church with me and doing the very little bit that we've done so far. Frankly, I'm not sure when we will even be able to talk again because of her reaction.
In light of this, it's entirely possible her reaction is due to what she fears about religion as a new force in the lives of those close to her. I have no way of knowing what her experiences thus far have been, but I do know that if Chris (my partner) suddenly "found religion" or started going to church, I'd probably make it known that I prefer the status quo, (depending on what religion, etc), though hopefully I could do so without any histrionics or rudeness. Depending on how religious he became, and what religion, and how it changed him and demanded his time, it could very possibly spell the end of our relationship.
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